Hello.... I am so glad that this book was recommended. I can see why. I am looking forward to new discoveries and hopefully to discover what Persuades lovers in every respect....:bawling:
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Hello.... I am so glad that this book was recommended. I can see why. I am looking forward to new discoveries and hopefully to discover what Persuades lovers in every respect....:bawling:
Supposedly I am reading an unabridged version. In Chapter 2, Sir Walter Elliot is considering three places to move to from Kellynch Hall. Why does it say Bath is 50 miles rather than kilometers? I thought the English used the metric system!
Anne seems to be oblivious to the social stigma of the debt that is swallowing the estate. Somehow Lady Russell is very aware of this and other conditions of Anne: "Anne had been too little from home, too little seen. Her spirits were not high. A larger society would improve them. [Lady Russell] wanted her to be more known." That sounds a lot like me growing up.
As I read Persuasion by Jane Austen, I am reminded that marriage has been an important element of life even from the time of Adam, even though he had but one choice in the matter.
And I'm sure, given the lack of choice, he still felt the human emotion of Love which is still elusive to concrete definition.
Nevertheless, while choice, now, is in abundance I find that like the man Adam there is but one choice. I find that to be an interesting observation, especially given how hard it is to find true love.
It is here in these thoughts that I find myself this morning: I believe in and like being married. My current marriage lacks the emotional and spiritual depth that I have a need for. I cannot speak of things intellectual or write that which reflects the things of my soul and expect a response that resonates better than the hollow thud of a large drum with a head that has not been tightened. I can expect questions of my soul to go unanswered and requests of my mind to be tepidly ignored until the threat of expectation has disolved.
For 17 years have I lived a fantasy where I thought that if I tell others that "I have a great marriage" that the greatness will eventually be realized. Having returned after 14 months of struggling against insurgents in the Middle East, and seeing three years pass with no improvement, I realize, finally, that I either accept that it will never change and figure out how to exist in a place where my expectations will forever go unmet or I get out.
But I like being married. I feel like I made a bad judgment in choice. But here's the rub: She has been easy to live with, has shown improvement as a mom (remarkable improvement in the last 12 months with a son entering the "tween-age" years of 10-12), and is a generally agreeable person. Most people would love to have a spouse like that.
But as I have developed as a person, I have found that I want more emotional response and spiritual connectedness. I want to talk of things that don't seem to matter on the face of it but that explore themes, imagery, and symbols of life. I'm not looking for this intensity every day, but I want to have access to it.
And when a person finds that connectedness, that emotional and spiritual depth, outside the marriage in a person of the opposite sex, then that creates a new, vast pallet of emotions that must be dealt with: spally captures some of this in her posting of a friend's poem on May 20, 2005 called "my love...my life". (see http://www.online-literature.com/for...ead.php?t=4594)
So as I begin Persuasion, I can see from the postings that there are a variety of parallel's to finding your true love and, for a variety of reasons, not being able to realize the potential of that love. What a frustrating place to be....
Only since the 1970's. And we still use miles more than kilometres.Quote:
Why does it say Bath is 50 miles rather than kilometers? I thought the English used the metric system!
Thank you for that explanation!
I have recently started this book myself! Just beginning Chapter 4 in fact! This is where it begins to get good!
I have noticed that some of the writing thus far seems rushed, like she was trying to lay down the groundwork quickly without really developing it. I wonder if she meant to go back through and re-write it before she died. We'll never know. One thing we do know is that she has a romantic heart just like I do, and I can certainly relate to her heroines.
Yes, the book picks up about 7 years after Jane was persuaded to not marry Wentworth. She seems to have suffered the entire time without really knowing it...like a low-grade infection that saps at the body's ability to function at optimal performance.
I'm interested in how Mrs. Clay got involved with the family. I need to go back and look. But clearly Austen has reverse-stacked the relationship much like Mark Twain did in Huckleberry Finn (I think) where the characters qualities were in reverse to their actual character. King, with that name, was the lowest on the ladder while (I think) the black man was the highest in terms of quality of human being.
So we have Elizabeth paired with Mrs. Clay, who is beneath her in social status (not to mention a snaggled tooth to make things worse!) where Anne is brought under Lady Russell's, who has elevated rank, watchful eye and social care.
Is this about opposites attracting and the natural pairing of weak and strong? Certainly, those in love are paired weak to strong but those, if it is healthy, each have strengths to offset weaknesses of the other. Mutual admiration.
I'm not sure about Huck Finn, but I should remember. I think I read that in HS and picked through it with a fine-tooth comb with an English teacher who extracted every detail from literature.
I think everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses, and relationships "work" when we not only use our own strengths to fortify the other's weaknesses, but we also understand and accept the other's weaknesses and admire their strengths. The trick, I think, is always remembering and appreciating what it was you fell in love with at the beginning. In my experience, I have noticed that there can be things you accept and admire to begin with, and then you eventually grow to resent those very same things. I think that happens when you start to fall out of love with someone. I prefer being in love and enjoying all the wonderful feelings that go along with it.
I found references to the duke and the king but ran out of time to compare it to any black man that might be a character. But the references to black men are thruout the text.
Just after the start of Chapter 6 I read something that caused me to reflect on how I was feeling last week and part of this was: "yet, with all this experience, she believed she must now submit to feel that another lesson in the art of knowing our own nothingness beyond our own circle, was become necessary for her".
I felt like I recognized my own nothingness moreso than ever. It was a tough way to feel and I felt it as it seemed like the soul was ripped from my body because of folly. Terrible feeling of tremendous loss not just of respect, admiration, love and a host of other things, but of interest and zest in me from another. Major feeling of abandonment. Something that not even an unacknowledged blooming azalia would cure.
So what causes two to fall out of love? Feelings of hate? Feelings that distance must be established even if one is to remain in a person's life? Like a dad? Like a high school friend? What is it that causes that old friend to be relegated to arms-length status?
OK, time to go for a bit. It's been a busy day with lots to do this evening. I'm just glad I have the time-saving device of my phone that allows me to immediately post thoughts on this book as they come to me and where I can read comments from others.
I apologize for the extra "T" in Bennett. I can't figure out how to fix it!
I think I can shed some light on your questions in the short time I have. Whereas Lizzy says to Darcy, "I am sorry, sir, for the pain I have caused. It was unconsciously done," she was unaware of his feelings and therefore had no idea that she was tormenting him.
Surely, he must have had repeated indications of what caused harm, and yet he continued to inflict pain and suffering of the highest proportions until the gentle, sweet, and sensitive soul of a said True Love was stamped and crushed with complete and utter disregard. If that is not reason to keep one at arm's length, then I don't know what is.
Regarding correcting the "T", try clicking on the "search" and type "edit profile"....
I went in and tried to change the spelling on the name and I, too, could not navigate to a place to change the user name. Looked everywhere and tried a variety of searches. Sorry I was of no use on that suggestion....
I found the initial reference to Mrs Clay in the searchable text but could not cut and paste it. It is the last 2 paragraphs of Chapter 2. Austen paints a terrible picture of the social damage Mrs Clay could wreak on Elizabeth and believes that removal from Kellynch Hall (leaving Mrs Clay behind) would bring more suitable people into Elizabeth's circle. This was very important to Lady Russell, even though she got no consideration from Elizabeth thruout their relationship.
It seems that Mrs. Clay went on to follow Elizabeth t Bath or to London, but I can't remember now. That's another thing I need to look into.
No you can't do it yourself, if you want your member name changed send me a PM.Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzyBennett
I am really getting into this book now. The anticipation of their first meeting was incredible. I couldn't put the book down. The style of writing is so much more captivating now than at the beginning of the novel. I can't believe there was just a glance at each other, and then it was over. They probably BOTH think the other indifferent. I love it!
Thank you for dropping my "T!"
What a great chapter with the brief meeting of the two! And it seemed as if the entire chapter was a flurry of activity and emotion. The hurt child, Mary's professed inadequacey as a mother, the build up of Wentworth's visit and Mary's comment: "You were so altered he should not have known you again."
That comment crushed me as I read it, knowing what it would do to the tender package of feelings held tight by Anne. Anne's reactions confirmed it and I, too, felt a pallet of emotions similar to Anne's. Never say things like that. Ever.
Further, while appearances have their place, what attracts me most is the soul and the intent thereof. I have been hurt before. And I am hurt now from love and all the consequences of being in it. But in that hurt I must consider intent. The love of my life has hurt me before. will hurt me again, and will never be guilty of intent. If I do not see it any other way then I am leaving myself wide open to losing or letting go what is so very precious to me. Even if it's maintained from a distance, or, like in Anne and Wentworth's case, the separation is in time, I will maintain. It is the soul of the girl that is most important to me. The beauty of that form won't ever change. And to hear it speak of discoveries and observations here does my heart good.
What's more, the fond feelings of friendship must be preserved. Must. Must...
All the feelings of being blissfully in love can be recaptured, perhaps not with one who a person has fallen out of love with, but with an understanding of intent. There is more to write on this subject, but I am sitting in my car in my garage and need to go shower and start my day.
Lizzy, never doubt that the thread of life described by Dickens in A Tale of Two Cities in the chapter called Echoing Footsteps is the thread that connects family.... Never doubt. Never.
I read that same passage this morning where Mary told Anne what Wentworth said about her. I felt my chest tighten, and thought how comforting to have in my life a man who has told me repeatedly, in more than one way, that he will never forget who I am. That poor girl!
The love of your life must have strong emotions and convictions, no doubt very tender as well. Maybe she only lashes out when she feels she has been disregarded. Intent to hurt, I understand, may not be there, but there must also be intent to be conscientious enough to not cause harm by accident. There must be presence of mind and consideration of the potential for harm to be caused so as to be avoided.
I am going to wait for my true love. If Anne can do it, so can I.
It is conviction like that that binds a people together. Wow....
Toward the end of chapter 7 when Mary tells Anne about the comment Wentworth made about her, Anne "...soon began to rejoice that she had heard them. They were of sobering tendency; they allayed agitation; they composed, and consequently must make her happier." The next paragraph describes Anne's thoughts about how the conversation with Mary and Wentworth went and she made certain conclusions without any applifying conversation with Wentworth.
To me, Anne was trying to protect herself from the deep feelings she had by justifying away those feelings in the face of a perceived position the Wentworth had taken for her (notwithstanding the remark from Mary which could have been a power play). I think Anne was looking for "Poison" to hang her feelings of rejection and, maybe, hate on. I hope that as the plot develops we find that Anne was wrong in all or part and the Wentworth too was trying to protect himself by not showing his true feelings.
In the last few paragraphs of chap 7, Wentworth sounded very similar to Wickham in P&P when he is making fun of himself in the ribbon shop about ribbons and buckles. Wentworth wsa refering to the type of girl he would marry and was building a case for not needing much in the way of a woman. He was looking to be contradicted, but the last paragraph seems to really show his true feelings. I wrote in the margin, "Will anything do? Anyone? Anne is still very much on his mind...."
It follows in Chapter 8: "They had no conversation together, no intercourse but what the commonest civility required. ...there could have been no two hearts so open, no tastes so similar, no feelings so in unison, no countenances so beloved. Now they were as strangers; nay, worse than strangers, for they could never become acquainted. It was a perpetual estrangement."
THAT is true love! Their thoughts are on the other, but they are refusing to talk!!
I also have a theory on Charles Hayter that I will write about later.
I just finished Chapter 11. What a wonderful book! One thing I've noticed and I want to see if there is any relevence. *singing to "Records" right now!*
That thing is the use of names. I haven't fully developed this yet but I want to throw it out for consideration. First is that there has been a lot of buzz about Wentworth and Loiusa and Henrietta. He has been "courting these two and the bases of their names are male: Louis and Henry. I want to see if there is anything there as I read. Second is his name: Wentworth. Went worth. Went, as in left. Worth as in value. Was there value in his leaving? Lastly, and this is where it started: Charles Hayter. Is Hayter a noun or a verb? (Hater) I look forward to seeing if there is any substance to my thoughts!
Also, sentance length. I had an English teacher in high school who made us write sentences that were at least 25 words. James Fenimore Cooper in his Last of the Mohicans and Dickens in his Tale of Two Cities both had incredible sentence structure. In Chapter 11, Austen describes the city of Lyme. The paragraph is 3 sentences. The last two sentences are the description. The 2nd is about 138 word and the 3rd is about 144 if you count the articles. That kind of writing amazes me! My English teacher said that sentences have to be fully developed to be effective in writing. Not true. See? *Laughling at my own humor!*:lol:
So far in this book, the time is not just right for them to be re-connected. I am currently at the start of Chapter 9.
Here are some of my perceptions to this point:
She still thinks he looks good and won't deny it just because she thinks he thinks she looks worse. She can't convince herself otherwise.
She thinks he has decided that she has a feeble mind because she allowed herself to be persuaded by others to end their relationship. She says, "Her power with him was gone forever." She may not be out of his thoughts, but he wants "any pleasing young woman who came in his way, excepting Anne Elliot. This was his only secret exception."
She is certain, however, that he must remember their relationship. "Anne felt the utter impossibility, from her knowledge of his mind, that he could be unvisited by remembrance any more than herself." She seems shocked that they could once be so close and share so much together and now are like strangers. He treats her as though they were never anything. He offers her her seat back when she returns to the room, and she feels, "his cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than any thing."
But I wonder what she expects when he is probably thinking the same of her behavior towards him. It is a situation where someone needs to put themselves in a vulnerable position and find out what the other's true feelings are. He could still be suffering and secretly madly in love with her!
Anne and Wentworth: So close and yet so far....
I will be interested in looking closer at the names!
I'm backing up to chapter 9! Looking forward to slowing down a little!
While at the gym on an exercise bike I started back thru 9. I noticed my note and underling at the end of 8: "His cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than anything." I wrote "Ugh!" Seems like we both saw that!
So Charles Hayter is introduced. Because he is undeveloped and because Wentworth seems so dashing, all I could think of was "HA!" when he discovered that Henrietta was smitten by Wentworth. I'll watch to see if any sympathy is generated in Hayter as he is developed as a character.
I've also noticed that Lady Russell has dissappeared for now along with Elizabeth, Mrs, Clay and Walter Elliot who should all be in Bath right now. Will they come back into play? he asked inquisitively with an inquisitive brow....
Another "HA!" for Charles Hayter in the middle of page 54: "Henrietta fully thought so herself, before Cpt Wentworth came; but fromthat time Cousin Charles had been much forgotten." HA!
The next paragraph shows that Anne is NOT a disinterested third-party observer in the affairs between Wentworth, Louisa and Henrietta.
Watch for references to "brother" and "sister" as at the top and bottom of 54. That really made my brain do loops until I realized that even in-laws are described just as a brother or a sister.
Page 54 seems to be full of stuff. The paragraph about the two families being on excellent terms with no pride or envy seems to be contradicted in the second full paragraph on the next page. Mary Musgrove "looked down very decidedly upon the Hayters (the husbands ar blood brothers)..." So I find myself a little confused and think I am missing something. Help anyone?
I'm at the top of 56 now and just started making a list of all the people named Charles. Four so far.
I was thinking how appropriate the names Fred and Anne are... Otherwise, I don't really see any symbolism in the names.
I was reading last night (reached mid-Chapter 11), and I was thinking about how we really don't know what is going on in Wentworth's mind. We only get Anne's perspective on things. We know he asked if she danced. He pulled the child off her back and caused her extreme agitation. He discussed her with Louisa on the walk and how she turned down Charles Musgrove. He made it clear that he doesn't like indecisiveness. "My first wish for all, whom I am interested in, is that they should be firm." He also helped Anne into the carriage. She thought it was because he wanted to give her some relief. Maybe he did it so he could be more comfortable flirting with Louisa without Anne being around!
I think eventually we will come to know what his true feelings were during all these events. I hope he has been in love with Anne all along and not that she has to make him fall back in love with her.
Charles Musgrove and son, Charles Hayter, and who is the fourth?
I think there is no pride or envy in the parent families of the Musgroves and Hayters, the mothers of each family are sisters. The negative comments were made by Mary, who seems to be just a pill in general. She is self-absorbed, and I do not care for her! She was concerned more about what the union of Henrietta and Charles Hayter would mean for her. Yuk!
The mothers of the Musgroves and Hayters are Mary (Blood sister to Anne and Elizabeth) I don't know the Hayter first name. But this is what I was referring to about "in-laws" being refered to strictly as brother or sister. These two are inlaws.
Anne refers at the bottom of 54 that she "...had to listen to the opinions of her bother and sister [which they prefered for Wentworth, Loiusa or Henriett]. " I thought, Anne had a brother?! I went back to page one and it clarified that Charles, son and heir of Charles Musgrove (the fourth Charles! so far!) married Mary on the 16th of Dec 1810. So Mary and Mrs Musgrove are sisters-in-law. I know, it's confusing but that should help.
Tell me about the names Fred and Anne.
Mary's contempt for Charles Hayter marrying one of her daughters is that the Musgroves are basically nothing. Again p54 "and while the Musgroves were in the first class of society...the young Hayters (Charles and whichever daughter) would, from their parents' inferior, retired and unpolished way of living, and their own defective education, have been hardly in any class at all, but for their connexion with Uppercross; this eldest son of course excepted (Charles, right?), who had chosen to be a scholar and a gentleman, and who was superior in cultivation and manners to all the rest. (and here I need some schooling because things are not adding up right now. Mary is 2 years younger than Anne and Anne is 26 right now, correct? How could Mary have two daughters that are of marrying age?) :idea:
Great observation on Wentworth's mind! I, too, hope you are right about him still being in love with her!!...
Anne is 27. Page 2-she was 14 when her mother passed away and that was 13 years ago.
The names Fred and Anne resemble other names I like to hear together.
Okay, let me set you straight! There are two families at Uppercross, the Musgrove parents in the mansion, children are Charles, the twins, and deceased Richard. Mrs. Musgrove is Mary's mother-in-law. Charles, Jr. and Mary (Anne and Elizabeth's sister) live in the cottage. When Anne refers to her brother and sister on page 54, she means her sister, Mary and brother-in-law, Charles, Jr. They have ?many children, one of which is Charles, III. The eldest Mrs. Musgrove is sister to Mrs. Hayter. The Hayters live at Winthrop, and their son Charles is expected to wed Henrietta (first cousins-yuk!):sick:
Thank you for that, Speedy Gonzonlez! Where did you find that on the mother Musgroves? Should we just read thru as fast as we can and then go back or go slow? I'm all for getting thru it, together, as fast as we can and then coming back thru it! Will you read it a second time with me?...
On page 20 is the original reference to Charles marrying Mary. (They have 2 children). Mary is always referred to as Mary (exc once she was called Mrs. Charles by her mother-in-law, bottom page 31), and his mother is always referred to as Mrs. Musgrove.
Uppercross Cottage is described at the bottom of page 25. The parent's home is called the Great House. Page 29 talks about the parents and the children, Charles, Henrietta and Louisa.
Top of 54 says "Mrs. Musgrove and Mrs. Hayter were sisters."
I would love to read through twice. My time to read is inconsistent, however. I hope I can keep up with you!
Poke! ICU! I will read at your pace! Keep me informed as to where you are and where you hope to go!
I went back to all your references and I'll be damned, there it is! I thought of all the tests that were taken by me in hs English and I would have missed any questins about this and I thought I was right on! You are so observant! I really thought I was better than this than to miss the connexion between the Great House, the cottage and the Musgroves and Hayters. This is why it is good to read this book with someone!
I thought I would share with you what I hope to get out of reading this book. At first I was motivated to read it for the story and the experience. But because of my HS English teacher, things stand out in a good book that I can't help observing. Now I feel like picking it apart a little. When I went back and reread the places you referenced I was amazed at how clear the details are that I missed! And of course, I have the advantage of having already read those parts (and I'm reading them in a study mode so I see it differently).
Thank you SO much for your help and illumination on this!:thumbs_up
You are too kind, sir!
I read EVERYTHING like I am studying for a test. I read very slow because of that, and I read most sentences more than once, ESPECIALLY Jane Austen! I am re-starting Chapter 11 today,and hope to complete it tonight. I won't be reading tomorrow (Thurs), but should have plenty of time to read Friday (but no computer access). I will try to come up with something illuminating or interesting over the weekend!
It is nice to have someone to read along with and discuss. I am ready for a love story! I can't help it! I AM a GIRL!
Now I have a better idea of how you read! I think I'll slow down a little and sink my teeth into this so I can keep abreast better with you!!
Let's just say I've had lots of school and too many tests!
I will be out of town starting Thursday night through mid-day Saturday--spending time with my brother.
I hope the Love of Your Life doesn't mind you reading this book with me....
Be safe out of town! And enjoy reading! I'll do the same!!
I started chatper 12 last night and got thru a few pages before I was passing out. Please keep me posted as to where you are this weekend and I'll try to stay with you. Fast read at this point, right? just get thru it and come back?...
Hi! I hope your reading is going well! I have done little but will get on it soon!...
It's late and I've been awaken by visiting relatives and heavy-footed children. Finding myself unable to go back to sleep I reflected on my veiwing (again) of Pride and Prejudice before turning out the light.
I wrote earlier about the use of names and that the name "Charles" has shown up in Persuaion four times by chapter 14. Each of the Charles named is not a main character and I realized that Charles Bingley in Pride and Prejudice is not a main character either.
So I took half an ambian to aid in my sleep and came down here to search all of Jane Austen's work for the name Charles. And guess what? I found nothing consistent. But I did find that all but two (Emma and Sense ans Sensability have characters named Charles that are not the main character. I also thought that maybe there was someone in her life named Charles who had some kind of impact on her so I searched her biographies too. I could not find a Charles listed anywhere, but that does not mean that there wasn't one in her life.
Lady Susan - Charles Vernon and Charles Smith
Mansfield Park - Charles Maddox and Charles Anderson
Northanger Abbey - Charles Hodges
Pride and Prejudice - Charles Bingley
Persuasion - Charles Sr, Jr, and III Musgrove and Charles Hayter
Truthfully, I think that's a lot of Charles! So my next question to research is when were Emma and S&S written and is there any chance that a Charles had influence on her after they were written. I need to research the order they were written. Emma was not the first written, but it was the first published.
Persuasion
I find Anne in Chapter 13 in an empty Mansion House. She does not want to say goodbye to it, the cottage or the village. This is the third time I have read this section as it is the place were Lizzy stopped last and I have two completely separate comments.
The first one is that I am drawn to the description of the cottage at the bottom of 89: "...with it's black, dripping, and comfortless veranda..." What is the meaning dehind this description? Her sister, Mary, lives there and might be considered having a personality to match. But does anyone really know what Austen intends when she writes? Or are we applying meaning to something that does not exist because we think we are so smart? What if it was just a description with no imagery or intended meaning?
The second requires no analysis because it is such a human trait and occurrence in the life of anyone who feels and has emotion. And I wonder if you noticed it and that is what caused you to pause at page 90! It starts at the last line of 89: ''Scenes had passed in Uppercross, which made it precious. It stood the record of many sensations of pain, once severe, but now softened; and of some instances of relenting feelings, some breathings of friendship and reconciliation, which could never be looked for again, and which would never cease to be dear.''
I do not know about you, but that paragraph may be the entire book for me! It may be what I remember for the rest of my life as to this story! I can tell you that it conjures up great emotion and causes my eyes to well. Tell me, Is it You?
You are right, again. That's me....