I know a lot more about the Enneagram

I know a lot more about the enneagram

remember before when emily posted something about the enneagram?

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=16626

well... I did a hell of a lot of research and can explain it a lot better than before (especially the feeling triad, 2, 3 and 4).

The Feeling Triad

The feeling triad is a triad that wants attention, and the way they feel they can receive this attention is by being someone they're really not. As they grew up they might've felt more noticed for what they did and not who they were. This gave them the feeling that if they were who they were... nobody would look at them. This forces them to always be like... someone else.

They kind of "try to be better than themselves". They don't want to be just them, because they feel if that is all they are... nobody would bother looking at them. They have be more than just their ordinary selves (they have to feel significant and great). This is also because they want to like themselves, they will only like themselves if they're big and impressive.

Each takes on a different path.

The two tries to feel better... and "more" by helping others... it makes them feel special and significant.

The three tries to feel "more" by being good at something and by impressing others with their qualities.

The four tries to feel "more" by trying to feel special and unique ("Hey look, I'm not just your ordinary person").



When they feel that they're not being liked and that they're not getting attention... well... then they feel defective. This forces them to try harder to be "more" now that they feel like "more" only when other people are looking at them. They need other people looking at them to feel significant. So they try harder and harder to receive attention.

At this level Twos try to help a lot... helping others with whatever they want to receive attention... being completely altruistic as if to say "hey look at me, I'm giving you attention"

At this level the Three becomes competitive... trying to practice whatever they're good at until they're completely perfect at whatever they do so they can impress people. As if to say "Hey look at how amazing I am at this"

At this level the Four tries to be really unique than others, tries to feel special and different. As if to say "Hey look at how different and original I am, nobody else is like me"

At unhealthier levels they begin to live a lie... they convince themselves that they are what they show others. They also feel frustrated by others because they've tried so hard to receive attention that now nobody's looking... so they get angry at others ("why won't you guys look at me?!"). They all eventually become very narcissistic.

The two eventually gives out so much... that they feel that they are... givers... and they deserve rewards. It's at this stage when they feel they should begin to collect albeit still helping others to receive they're attention.

The three eventually practices so much that the only thing they care about at this stage is winning... and winning the prestige that they deserve. Whatever they do, they cannot lose. They will keep trying to win and win... and if that doesn't work... well then... they unfocus themselves from attention and begin focusing only on... the game.

The four eventually tries so hard at being different... that they begin to feel different. They convince themselves that they're different from everyone else, and that they are unspecial... they keep trying to feel special by being overdramatic and overartistic. Eventually though, they feel that they have suffered so much that they might feel that they deserve to get.

I guess that's the feeling triad for you at the unhealthier stages... even though on healthier stages the feeling triad realizes that self-worth doesn't come from an external source. They stop trying so hard to receive attention.

The two stops trying to receive attention but keeps on helping others because this is what they're good at and this is what still makes them feel special. True humility at this point and true altruism. They no longer feel that they have to be all altruistic to receive attention and realize they have a right to be a bit... egoistic. They become more self-nurturing then and truly unleash the quality that is unconditional love.

The three stops trying so hard to impress others. Realizes that self-worth doesn't come from others and keep on doing whatever it is they're good at... because it remains making them feel special. Nevertheless... they stop being so competitive. At this stage they can become role models valuing their own self for who they are. They truly unleash the quality that is... Self-value.

The fours stop trying so hard to be special and significant. Dropping all their overdramatic behaviour. They remain being artistic because this is what they're good at and they feel special for it. They can be truly creative and truly artistic... and they then truly reveal the quality of being equanimic.

well... g2g. lol that was the feeling triad for you

I'm 8w7, any in depth explanation of that?

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Originally Posted by Rampant

I'm 8w7, any in depth explanation of that?

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I'll try... it's just that I have a bigger focus on the Feeling triad, then the Thinking Triad, and lastly the Instinct.

What I know about the Instinctive triad is what they seek most is autonomy. I haven't really checked out any deeper because my type is a Two... so it was kind of like a self-examination for me about what happened in my past, etc. And that just made me like... well... I just tried learning about the feeling triad while I was at it.

As for the instinctive triad they try to have autonomy, I guess it must feel like something they lack. Like... the Feeling Triad feels that they might lack attention so they immediately try to get it and keep it. So the Instinctive triad might feel the same about autonomy, they immediately try to get it... and try to keep it. This causes them to... put their feet on the ground and observe everything that's happening at that moment. If things aren't going the way they like... they take action... immediately... as soon as possible. The entire instinctive triad are people of action.

Now Eights try to be in control of their life. They're... self-reliant. One of the ways to think about eights is like as a big brother.

Big brother eights might constantly pick fights with the little brother and annoy him and stuff "Why'd you do this? Why'd you do that?" but when somebody else picks on the little brother it's immediately "Hey! that's my little brother your picking on!"

Now that last part... was an example of healthy eights. They're kind and caring and express this kindness. Something they can't do at unhealthier levels because they feel that kindness is a weak... feeling or virtue, and they don't like that. They like things that are strong. So they try to be strong and powerful... and practical actually. They are constantly aware of injustice... nobody hurts them... nobody takes a right from them etc (Martin Luther King, I believe... was an Eight).

When unhealthier they immediately begin to tough up... trying to make sure nobody hurts them or anything. They're strong and powerful, and this is the goal they constantly try to reach. They're vice is lust in this way... Lust as in being intense. Their virtue therefore is innocence... innocence as in being kind and gentle with others.


Well... more info later I guess... I g2g... time's almost up for me in this cafe.

Cool, oddly enough I'm writing an oration right now about the lack of healthy narcissism in today's society, and one of my big points is self-reliance. I'm using Emerson and Thoreau as resources. A lot of that description fits me perfectly, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rampant

Cool, oddly enough I'm writing an oration right now about the lack of healthy narcissism in today's society, and one of my big points is self-reliance. I'm using Emerson and Thoreau as resources. A lot of that description fits me perfectly, thanks.

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No problem

here's the perfect site actually

http://ocean-moonshine.net/e14285736...position=35:35

I got this result:

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You are most likely a type 6. Taking wings into account, you seem to be a 6w5

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So I guess I tend to be a mistrustful thinker who has a tendency to withdraw...:blush:

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Originally Posted by kathycf

I got this result:


So I guess I tend to be a mistrustful thinker who has a tendency to withdraw...:blush:

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lol... Sixes are really confusing... seriously... often the best way to explain a six is by thinking of someone who feels they have to walk on one foot...

Then, they feel they need someone around to help them walk around but it's like... "Can I trust this person?"

Or another way to explain it is by a game of cards... all the other types play assured about what they should do. They know exactly what to play in order to succeed (in life and) in getting what they want. Sixes don't... constantly in this game they say "Should I play this card, or should I play this one? If I play this one... what happens... is it going to be good? What happens if it's bad? Which one should I play?". This self-doubt constantly makes them look like they switch from one psychological state to another... at one point they try to feel safer by being the loner... but the next they feel safer by being the joker... etc.

Constant self-doubt in making decisions and stuff... which makes sixes be one of the most confusing ones to explain... here's the link though

http://ocean-moonshine.net/e14285736...position=33:33

Thanks for the link. I read about the types on the test site, but the site you linked is more informative. Interesting reading.

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Sixes are attuned to power relations and to underlying power dynamics. They sense who has power, who wants it, who will use it, who will misuse it, and they are often the ones who sense an imbalance or injustice where others simply see the status quo. As they easily tend to feel like victims themselves, they often identify with the underdog and can even devote themselves to the cause of redressing what they see as injuries done to those without power....Sixes with the Five wing generally tend more towards introversion than do those with a Seven wing. They characteristically withdraw under stress and typically have a few trusted friends to whom they can turn in times of trouble. They are often drawn to systems of thought, whether religious, political or philosophical which help them explain their experiences and which provide them with a framework which confers on them some semblance of control and prediction.

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Hey, guess who that seems like! :lol:

It's always interesting to see the results, however I put little stock in these tests - The idea that a short test, such as this, can adequately describe a persons personality seems patently silly to me....let alone the fact that everyone in the world fits into one 9 (18 if you count the wings) set descriptions. We all have characteristics of each type it just depends on the situation what we will exhibit

I see your point, Killted, but the test isn't all that short. At least not the one I took, there are two versions. After reading the types there are more than one that I fit into, but some I don't at all.

I think it is true that there is more variety in the human condition then can be explained by one test here, or another there. One thing I do love is taking the darn things...;)

This test reminds me of the personality test I took when I joined my previous organisation, they ask such questions in interviews too, just to check consistency in replies they ask the same question in many different ways.

The result is 2w3

Is wing 3 same as Enneagram 3?

Enneagram Type 2 - The Helper

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Helpers who need to be needed

People of this personality type essentially feel that they are worthy insofar as they are helpful to others. Love is their highest ideal. Selflessness is their duty. Giving to others is their reason for being. Involved, socially aware, usually extroverted, Twos are the type of people who remember everyone's birthday and who go the extra mile to help out a co-worker, spouse or friend in need.

Twos are warm, emotional people who care a great deal about their personal relationships, devote an enormous amount of energy to them, and who expect to be appreciated for their efforts. They are practical people who thrive in the helping professions and who know how to make a home comfortable and inviting. Helping others makes Twos feel good about themselves; being needed makes them feel important; being selfless, makes Twos feel virtuous. Much of a Two's self-image revolves around these issues, and any threat to that self-image is scarcely tolerated. Twos are thoroughly convinced of their selflessness, and it is true that they are frequently genuinely helpful and concerned about others. It is equally true, however, that Twos require appreciation; they need to be needed. Their love is not entirely without ulterior motive.

Twos often develop a sense of entitlement when it comes to the people closest to them. Because they have extended themselves for others, they begin to feel that gratitude is owed to them. They can become intrusive and demanding if their often unacknowledged emotional needs go unmet. They can be bossy and manipulative, feeling entirely justified in being so, because they "have earned the right" and their intentions are good. The darkest side of the type Two fixation appears when the Two begins to feel that they will never receive the love they deserve for all of their efforts. Under such circumstances, they can become hysterical, irrational and even abusive.

Because Twos are generally helping others meet their needs, they can forget to take care of their own. This can lead to physical burnout, emotional exhaustion and emotional volatility. Twos need to learn that they can only be of true service to others if they are healthy, balanced and centered in themselves.

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Enneagram Type 3 - The Achiever

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Focused on the presentation of success, to attain validation

People of this personality type need to be validated in order to feel worthy; they pursue success and want to be admired. They are frequently hard working, competetive and are highly focused in the pursuit of their goals, whether their goal is to be the most successful salesman in the company or the "sexiest" woman in their social circle. They are often "self-made" and usually find some area in which they can excel and thus find the external approbation which they so desperately need. Threes are socially competent, often extroverted, and sometimes charismatic. They know how to present themselves, are self-confident, practical, and driven. Threes have a lot of energy and often seem to embody a kind of zest for life that others find contagious. They are good networkers who know how to rise through the ranks. But, while Threes do tend to succeed in whatever realm they focus their energies, they are often secretly afraid of being or becoming "losers."

Threes can sometimes find intimacy difficult. Their need to be validated for their image often hides a deep sense of shame about who they really are, a shame they unconsciously fear will be unmasked if another gets too close. Threes are often generous and likable, but are difficult to really know. When unhealthy, their narcissism takes an ugly turn and they can become cold blooded and ruthless in the pursuit of their goals.

Because it is central to the type Three fixation to require external validation, Threes often, consciously and unconsciously, attempt to embody the image of success that is promoted by their culture. Threes get in trouble when they confuse true happiness, which depends on inner states, with the image of happiness which society has promoted. If a Three has a "good" job and an "attractive" mate, she might be willing, through an act of self-deception which is also self-betrayal, to ignore the inner promptings which tell her that neither her job, nor her mate are fulfilling her deeper needs. Even the most "successful" Threes, who generally appear quite happy, often hide a deeply felt sense of meaninglessness. The attainment of the image never quite satisfies.

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Yes, if your wing is type 3 then it would be Enneagram type 3.

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Twos with the Three wing are more expansive, ambitious and image oriented than those with a Two wing. They are frequently competitive but are also extremely generous with their time and energy.

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The link that DigitalCrash gave was interesting, I took the quote above from it.

Type two.

Actually... the enneagram is more about motives than it is about qualities


Yes... I'm kind and generous and helpful... but the more important thing is my motives... it's not that I'm kind, generous and helpful... but why I'm kind, generous and helpful, it's that that makes me a two.

I have the four's sensitivity, the five's curiousity, the nine's passive agressiveness..

but... I remain being a two... because I'm sensitive for a two reason... my curiousity is five... but five's aren't just curious because they're curious... they're curious because they want to feel competent and capable. I'm simply just curious... but nothing deeper than that. Passive-agressive... but more of a way to defend my image... than the nine who defends his/her space.

So, yes... in some way we do have all the qualities of all nine... but that's not what matters... it's why we do everything we do that makes us the type we are.

As for Wing 3 = Enneagram 3

it's not necessarily the same... just because your wing's a three doesn't mean that your both a three and a 2... but it means that... you're a two... with a couple of qualities of a three.

I believe. 2w1s help to feel helpful... and 2w3 helps to impress.

Also... I'm a so/sx/sp...

it's pretty interesting...


http://ocean-moonshine.net/e14285736...position=80:80

Right, I didn't word myself correctly. I didn't mean it was being the same, but that to understand about your wing, you could read about the type 3, IF three was your wing.

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Originally Posted by kathycf

Yes, if your wing is type 3 then it would be Enneagram type 3.


The link that DigitalCrash gave was interesting, I took the quote above from it.

Type two.

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This seems to be very close, but I didnt like the negative part at all. I think I am the wierd one, who is 2w3?? I didnt see anybody with this strange combination.

Actually, kilted, it wouldn't be 18 counting the wings(9x2)--it would be 72 (9x8) I think. -_^

People are pretty much the most complex things in the entire universe, in my humble opinion. And yet... everything can only be so complex. I took the test, and I'm a four. I don't mean "I scored as a four," even though I did. I mean... I AM a four. Everything I've ever said about myself they say about me. Now, they also said a couple things that are not me, like "low self esteem" and "tendency for depression." But I read all the others and not a single one came close to being as accurate as four. It wasn't a "horoscope thing", either, where it's so vague it could be anything. The first few paragraphs, especially, were very specific, and they used almost the exact same words I used in my journal just in the last month to describe myself. Gee, and I thought I was unique... oh, wait... (fours build their identity around a sense of individuality, yasee. :D)

Summer, I think the 18 would be correct as I believe in the reading material somewhere it says that the wings are overlaps to adjacent groups eg 5 has wings of 4 or 6 but not 1,2,3,7,8 or 9. I suppose it would be 27 if you can have balanced wings, however I still think it is too small a number.

In furtherance to my last point another issue that I have is that in some people these types of tests induce a degree of learned helplessness; for exaample according to the test I am a 5w6, which means I have trouble expressing my emotions and dealing with people etc. Some people who have issues with confidence and self-esteem may read the description recognise themselves as such, and stop attempting to improve how they interact with people due to a belief that this is who they are & no matter what they do it wont get any better. I think that is both incredibly dangerous and limiting, hence my dislike for the tests: like I said earlier fun for a laugh, but not something to be taken as a full definition of your character and capabilities

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

Summer, I think the 18 would be correct as I believe in the reading material somewhere it says that the wings are overlaps to adjacent groups eg 5 has wings of 4 or 6 but not 1,2,3,7,8 or 9. I suppose it would be 27 if you can have balanced wings, however I still think it is too small a number.

In furtherance to my last point another issue that I have is that in some people these types of tests induce a degree of learned helplessness; for exaample according to the test I am a 5w6, which means I have trouble expressing my emotions and dealing with people etc. Some people who have issues with confidence and self-esteem may read the description recognise themselves as such, and stop attempting to improve how they interact with people due to a belief that this is who they are & no matter what they do it wont get any better. I think that is both incredibly dangerous and limiting, hence my dislike for the tests: like I said earlier fun for a laugh, but not something to be taken as a full definition of your character and capabilities

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Yeah, I get that...

it's 18 btw... lol... like... errmm... a lot more if you count variants

like
108 different types if you count both wings and variants.

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

I think that is both incredibly dangerous and limiting, hence my dislike for the tests: like I said earlier fun for a laugh, but not something to be taken as a full definition of your character and capabilities

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I agree with kilted exile's sentiment here, but I suppose it's possible that personality types aren't completely arbitrary.

The enneagram descriptions try to justify the idea of a fixed dominant personality type by suggesting that it is a result of the early formative years in life; thus, the dominant personality type doesn't change much once adulthood is reached. I think this is consistent with the experience of most people. Most people are comfortable with the idea that it is possible to use knowledge of a person's character to develop meaningful expectations about that person's future actions and decisions.

What is less clear is that it is possible to meaningfully capture the characters of the vast majority of human beings with a small number of personality types, and even if that possibility is accepted, it is even less clear how well the nine types given by these enneagram guys (or the 16 types of the Myers-Briggs system) accomplish this. I suppose it is possible that there are a small number of discrete attractors in "character-space". I wonder if there is any justification from the enneagram guys or the Myers-Briggs people that their types really are somehow natural?

I think personality tests like this one can be a useful tool. Not as a be all and end all definer of self, that would indeed be pretty limiting. Introspection in moderation can be a good thing and tests such as this can help with that. Having some knowledge of self can lead to changes being made.

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Originally Posted by kathycf

I think personality tests like this one can be a useful tool. Not as a be all and end all definer of self, that would indeed be pretty limiting. Introspection in moderation can be a good thing and tests such as this can help with that. Having some knowledge of self can lead to changes being made.

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Yup yup.

Which is the good thing about this.

Some clarification: I agree for a lot of people self introspection is a good thing, however only if it is done in a healthy manner. For some people I do think it can lead to retreating within themselves and is not healthy.

108 types is still imo far too small there are what 6.3 Billion people in the world, if all the types of people, from every type of culture, I can meet fit into one of those groups then why should bother interacting with new people at all - I already must have met someone like them previously.

That is why we cannnot rely soley on tests to take the place of interacting with people, as you aptly point out, Kilted. Just to use myself as an example: As one of those people who do like to retreat, I emphasize my earlier use of the word "moderation" in conjunction with introspection, but without the introspection or the self knowledge gained I would not be able to say to myself "I like to isolate too much and need to get out and live life too".

It doesn't hurt to take these sorts of tests with a grain of salt, or even ten grains. Critical thinking is just that, not accepting everything as fact, but thinking over what truths something may possess and what it does not. Plus, you know...they are kinda fun to take. :p

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

Some clarification: I agree for a lot of people self introspection is a good thing, however only if it is done in a healthy manner. For some people I do think it can lead to retreating within themselves and is not healthy.

108 types is still imo far too small there are what 6.3 Billion people in the world, if all the types of people, from every type of culture, I can meet fit into one of those groups then why should bother interacting with new people at all - I already must have met someone like them previously.

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Well... think about it this way.

Their are thousands of animals in this world, and they are all divided into kingdoms... how many are there? well I forget.

Nevertheless in these kingdoms there still remain different types of animals.

Ok... so let's take it this way then.

There are many personalities in this world, but this system divides them into "kingdoms" into 9.

Nevertheless in these kingdoms there still remains different types of personalities.

Get it?

Digi,

It's not that I dont "get it" it's that I fundamentally disagree with it. Like I've said repeatedly it is fun for a laugh.

but

To think you can a statistically viable account of personalities which capture encapsulate those of 6.3 billion people, using this test, is wrong especially as this uses low grade statistical techniques, I do not have the time (nor inclination) to do the required research on the exact degree of error - however I believe it would probably be high.

However, I dont want to get into an argument about this so that is all I'll say on the matter.

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

Digi,

It's not that I dont "get it" it's that I fundamentally disagree with it. Like I've said repeatedly it is fun for a laugh.

but

To think you can a statistically viable account of personalities which capture encapsulate those of 6.3 billion people, using this test, is wrong especially as this uses low grade statistical techniques, I do not have the time (nor inclination) to do the required research on the exact degree of error - however I believe it would probably be high.

However, I dont want to get into an argument about this so that is all I'll say on the matter.

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Hmm... I shouldn't have said "Get it" I didn't mean it to come of that way. Of course you get it... heh...

yeah... let's just forget I guess.