1984 - Discussion on its symbols & its relation to Nazism, Stalinism, and Ingsoc?

These are two main discussion topics I thought might be interesting. Feel free to add any others that may be related:

Symbols

Some symbolic concepts/objects I thought we could discuss:

1. The Brotherhood & Goldstein's book
2. Fragile Glass Paperweight
3. Winston's Diary
4. Relationship between Winston & Julia
5. Newspeak
6. Ingsoc

Relation to Nazism and Stalinism

I was reading a Foreward for Brave New World which happened to describe the differences between the two books as:

"He [George Orwell] was writing about the forbidding, part-alien experience of Nazism and Stalinism, whereas Huxley was locating disgust and menace in the very things - the new toys of materialism, from cars to contraceptives - that were becoming everyday pursuits."

When I read this I had to pause and wonder about for a bit before I could see a connection. What I noticed is that 1984 focuses on a world whose people are faced with a system of totalitarianism - it fails to provide for its citizens (the inner and outer party members, etc.). However, is that the only link? If so, then what role does the proles play in this novel?

Further, how does the Eastasia-Eurasia-Oceania conflict come into the picture? We realize that they're warring for the sole purpose of draining resources since they believe that people leading a luxurious life will revolt, so is this just another form of oppression?

Lastly, but most importantly, how is the concept of Ingsoc incorporated into the book, and what is Orwell trying to tell us in the end?

Okay, here's what I think about the numbered items.

1. The Brotherhood and Goldstein are both non-existent. They were invented by Ingsoc for the purpose of Hates and to flush out thought criminals. This is evidenced by the fact that O'Brien is the only supposed Brotherhood member we ever meet, and he really works for Big Brother. Also, everything that sets Winston free is really an instrument of Big Brother. The diary, the room, O'Brien, were all ostensibly routes to freedom, but they were really just planted there by the Party. The only exception is Julia, but unfortunately even love can be used to serve the Party as is evidenced by room 101 and the ending of the novel.

2. The shattering of the paperweight is like the shattering of the past or one's ego. Winston proclaims how fragile the coral had always been, and it really is. He compares the paperweight to the special world in which he's free, namely inside his mind. But in the end it's shattered during his arrest the same way his mind would be shattered in the following chapters.

3. His diary helps explain who he is. It's like his brain revealed to the reader. His brain contains all of this stuff that the past and present will never know, and his thoughts are as out of date as the book he writes in.

4. They were in love. She is sort of his opposite in that she thinks only about herself and how the Party hurts her, whereas Winston also ponders deeper implications of doublethink, etc. I think she's there to balance it out, cuz just hearing Winston's views on it would be too moralistic, and her views are more practical.

5. Newspeak is a tool for thought control. It emphasizes how important language, literature, etc. is to our thoughts, which might be something Orwell took from philosophers such as Wittgenstein, or not.

6. Ingsoc is the Party. One could speculate its connections to real life socialism and communism, that's about it.

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The shattering of the paperweight is like the shattering of the past or one's ego. Winston proclaims how fragile the coral had always been, and it really is. He compares the paperweight to the special world in which he's free, namely inside his mind. But in the end it's shattered during his arrest the same way his mind would be shattered in the following chapters.

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Interesting, i always saw it as a less individualistic symbol and more a foreshadowing of the hope Winston had in society, particulary the "prolls". Especially since they had trusted the guy who owned the shop, and their trust was then shattered too.

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3. His diary helps explain who he is. It's like his brain revealed to the reader. His brain contains all of this stuff that the past and present will never know, and his thoughts are as out of date as the book he writes in.

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I saw it more as an example of the beauty of free speech.

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5. Newspeak is a tool for thought control. It emphasizes how important language, literature, etc. is to our thoughts, which might be something Orwell took from philosophers such as Wittgenstein, or not.

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Kinda like today and Net-speak and texting,huh?

:idea: see i may be wrong but i also thought the shattering of the paperweight symbolized there comfort they dont have and there privacy the really dont have either and them always being together which doesnt happen either do u agree? can u see where im coming from? i guess it can symbolize many things because they thought they were in comfort and privacy and they didnt think they were gonna get caught this way and they didnt know it was all a setup at all. and the paperweight was all that "emotion" of security then it shattered and it just happens after the paperweight shattered they had gotten "caught" so i guess you could also say it didnt symbolizes their security only the thinking of their security. because they were always caught they just didnt know it.

Here's my opinion of the subjects (if you want it, lol) *deep breath*:

1: In my opinion, whether the Brotherhood and Goldstein actually exist does not really matter, it merely matters that people belive that they do and that the Party manipulates this in order to, as others have said, create this culture of hate and fear and expose thoughtcriminals.

2: In additition to the paperweight representing the trust of the old man in the shop and Winston's internal wold, it also represents the indipendant relationship between Julia and Winston which is "shattered" by the inrusion of the Thought Police.

3: Winson's diary is simply a result of the state-inforced repression which forces people to "bottle everything up"- so Winston seeks a form of intellectual and emotional expression indipendant of the Party.

4: The relationship between Julia and Winston is connected with the above, but is also about a desire to live in a world where there is something more than hate and fear.

5: Newspeak is just what others have said, it is a method of controlling people's thoughts so that there will not be any opposition to the Party's authority, even in thought. If there are no words to use to describe a revolution, how can there be one? It is also more broadly to examine the importance of clear and accurate communication.

6: It is very easy to dismiss the Ingsoc of 1984 as an extention of socialism in general. However, this was never Orwell's intention- he was, after all, a socialist himself. The Ingsoc of 1984 is more about the totalitarian "socialism" of Stalin's Russia which was actually about getting away from the principles of socialism, in the name of socialism. Ingsoc is a British version of the Communist Party of Russia and an extention of some of those on the Left in Britain who were baisically apologists for Stalin.

Phew, that took too long, I've got work to do. Hope this helps!:thumbs_up

has neone read the book night by elie wiesel???????????
about his experience in the holocaust???????
well i know its not in relation with this book exactly...............but im doin a presentation where winston reads the book night and talks to julia about it(in the big open field............)
i was wonderin if i could get help in analysing the change in his character...............
pls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“A glass paperweight especially seems to Winston in its beauty and fragility to symbolize his and Julia’s lives forever within itself.” The shattering of the paperweight is a representation of the destruction of Winston and Julia’s uniqueness. Although Winston and Julia were able to think in a way different from everyone else, this ability was fragile and easily broken.

i still need help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the presentations in 2 weeks....................
can sumone help me analyse the character of winston????????????????
n julia while were at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Big Brother, the Brotherhood, Goldstein do exist. First we have to define what exists and I guess it comes down if a tree falls in the woods and no one is left to hear it - does it make a sound? O'Brien tells Winston that he can levitate (I think ...); when Winston realises that 2+2=5 he can also realise that O'Brien can levitate, and as both of them believe in it it becomes true. Also in a way it doesn't matter whether the parties actually exists, if the people believe in them and act on them (God for example; no proof that he exists but thousands of things have been commited in his name) that they start to exist ...

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ok so i have a report due like on mondayy so i need helpp!
ok my main question is at the end of the book, is WInston's ephiny (i think thats how its spelled:P) the bullet? or was there ever actually going to be a read literal bullet? im kinda confused about that. also is BB real? or is he a symbol for the people to praise, and work tward aspiring to? and the brothehood? is it real or just a ploy to find out who really wants to go against the party? if anyone could anwser i would be soooo grateful!;)

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Originally Posted by canadainchic

also is BB real? or is he a symbol for the people to praise, and work tward aspiring to? and the brothehood? is it real or just a ploy to find out who really wants to go against the party? if anyone could anwser i would be soooo grateful!;)

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There is no Big Brother actually, only The Brotherhood. Big Brother never gets old nobody ever sees him, etc. There is only a Brotherhood, which runs their lives and whole society, Big Brother is just personalization of Brotherhood. I think it was because it's always easier for people to love one person, actually a symbol of something. I've read somewhere: ''Give people something to hate, and they will be quite...'' It was the same with Big Brother, but it was an opposite feeling, love instead of hate.

I agree with dramasnot6 about the Newspeak thing. It's scary to compare it with the latest text-messaging "language" and see the similarity. I wonder if anyone here ever wonders what else of 1984's going to come true...

1) The existence of the Brotherhood is irrelevant. As O'Brien demonstrated, the party is everlasting because everyone, quite literally, thinks the same. As for the rare exception such as Winston, Goldstien, Jordenson and others, they are destroyed, not physically, mentally and emotionally. Also, they are destroyed from history, see Parsons and the other nameless victims. The removal from history is the essence of the Party's longevity.

2) The paperweight is a link to history and its destruction is further evidence of the Party's ever encompassing reach. With its destruction Winston loses his final link to any society before his own contemporary time.

3) The diary is simply a diary and evidence to use against Winston when he is taken. Remember, O'Brien had been watching him for seven years.

4) Julia's and Winston's love affair is an expression of humanity and the need for people to be close. Again, it is an illusion to the reach of the Party. In room 101 Winston finally betrays Julia. Their love was real, heart-felt, sincere emotion that was used to destroy Winston.

5) Newspeak is a warning to future generations to not allow the establishment destroy their thought. The Party used it as a mind control device. It is, I believe, prophetic of the Political Correctness that took root, oddly enough, in the late sixties and continues to 2011.

6) Ingsoc is the corruption of all governments. It is the final realization of Marxism, Bolchevism, and yes, democracy. In other words, Ingsoc is the perfect government for it thinks only of the government.

One real connection I can think of between 1984 and Nazism is the persecution of intellectuals and "unbelievers" to use Newspeak. In Nazi Germany not only Jews, Gypsies, Soviets, and Eastern Europeans sent to the death camps, but also political non-believers. The clearest, and most overt, act of purging was the Night of the Long Knives. The Brown Shirts were all, ALL, killed in one night. But more than that, the Brown Shirts were corrupted and their purpose was absorbed by the SS.

Also, the victims of the Final Solution were not martyrs until AFTER the war and their plight was revealed by the Allies. If the Nazis had won the war, then the Final Solution would not have existed in the sense we know it as. The men, women, and children sent to Dauchau, Auschwitz, and other camps would have been nameless, forgotten, and erased from history. Basically, the Minilove was Auschwitz and Auschwitz was Minilove.

I know that is near heresy to say, but it is historical fact. The German people, except for those in the Inner Party, had no idea what was happening within their own nation. It is indeed frightening to realize how close to reality 1984 truly is.

One question, what is the essential lesson from 1984? I gather that what Orwell is trying to tell us is that nothing is safe, especially the gray matter between our ears. The final chapter stumped me for a while, I could not understand what was going on in the Chestnut Cafe. My one idea is that Winston was NOT broken my the torture, humiliation, and deprivation in the Minilove. He was broken by predicting, and formulating, the simple message from the telescrene. Thus, the ideas of the Party did not break him, but he broke himself threw his own ideas.

Is that accurate, or did I miss everything?

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Originally Posted by kowalskil

P.S. The picture shows me with my parents. It was taken in 1936, in Moscow, two years before they took my father away, and sent him to Siberia. He died there two years later, at the age of 36. The book is dedicated to my parents, and to millions of other victims of Stalinism.

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Welcome along!

You should post that link in General literature - I'm sure it would have a wide audience among readers here.

I'd like to share some thoughts I had on the coral paperweight. The interpretations here are all very interesting and completely plausible, but I was struck with a different idea after reading the scene where it is smashed.

To me the coral paperweight is simply and object that symbolizes beauty. Remember, when Winston is first attracted to it in the shop he doesn't immediately know what it is, it is only after he has bought the object that he assumes it is intented for use as a paperweight. He decides to buy it becuase, in Orwell's words "the thing was doubly attractive because of its apparent uselessness". I think Orwell chooses his words carefully here, and holds the paperweight as an embodiment of 'form over function' and beauty for it's own sake. The deliberate smashing of paperweight later on is the powerful device he uses to show that the beauty absolutely cannot survive under Big Brother, that the prevalence of ugliness in everyday life as described earlier in the book is not a coincidence, but the result of a conscious purge.

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Originally Posted by Silve

Further, how does the Eastasia-Eurasia-Oceania conflict come into the picture? We realize that they're warring for the sole purpose of draining resources since they believe that people leading a luxurious life will revolt, so is this just another form of oppression?

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I was under the impression that restricting people from leading luxurious lives was a means of promoting inequality for it's own sake, not necessarily a means of preventing revolt.

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Originally Posted by Kant

One question, what is the essential lesson from 1984? I gather that what Orwell is trying to tell us is that nothing is safe, especially the gray matter between our ears. The final chapter stumped me for a while, I could not understand what was going on in the Chestnut Cafe. My one idea is that Winston was NOT broken my the torture, humiliation, and deprivation in the Minilove. He was broken by predicting, and formulating, the simple message from the telescrene. Thus, the ideas of the Party did not break him, but he broke himself threw his own ideas.

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The conflict concerns Winston's effort to maintain unorthodox ideas and the Party's effort to thwart him. Winston thinks about this a lot and makes monologues about how while the Party can control every physical aspect of his life, they can never breach his mind. In the end the party breaches his mind and the closing sentence reflects that. So it seems to me that the strongest message was a warning against thought control.

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Regarding the book's relation to Nazis, I think most of it is easily recognisable. Winston describes propaganda posters featuring tanned, blonde haired, blue eyed athletic types; Goldstein, the subject of society's hate, is a Jewish surname; the rockets periodically bombarding London are a reference to V2 rockets. There are quite a few other references as well. It seems to me that Orwell probably lived through WW2 and used his experiences during those times as inspiration for his books imagery.

The books relation to communism is deeper. I won't trouble with specific examples, but I'll mention that many ideas presented in the book are actually implemented in North Korea today. Specific example (I lied...): in many Pyongyang homes there are radios installed which play propaganda 24/7 and cannot be turned off, only turned down. Quite similar to the television sets in 1984, right?