NTHS - Animal Farm

(Hello - to all others! I am a teacher and am planning for all my students to get on board here as an assingment and experience. In the next three weeks, there will be much from us - thank you for your patience with my Honors Freshman from North Tahoe High School)

CLASS - Lets get started! This is a great way to learn and use an online "discussion" site that you will use in your futures! Play around with this! I will offer extra credit for the students the utilize this site and can really find their way around it - Good luck and have fun!
Animal Farm - Where might there be foreshadowing in this novel?

That was an excellent read! :thumbs_up
As for foreshadowing, I think that there were several examples during the beginning half of the book. An example is when the pigs required the extra milk and apples. It was partially and silently agreed the pigs would use it for their needs. I thought that this was the beginning of dictatorship ruling from the pigs.

Another foreshadow was when the pigs sent the ravenous dogs on Boxer. To me this says that in the later half of the book, Boxer will be betrayed.

If you had an understanding of Russian rulers and wars then you would realize know that Snowball (who was banished from the farm,) had the same fate as Leon Trotsky who got exiled when Stalin/ Napoleon took over.

:banana: Maiya G-wood

I agree with Maiya- the act of the pigs taking the milk and apples was a sure sign that they believed they were better than the other animals.

However, I believe that foreshadowing occured even earlier in the novel. When old Major called all of the animals together to report his dream, the pigs sat direcly in front of him. This, along with the fact that old Major was a pig himself, gave us a hint that the pigs had a feeling of authority over the others. :wave:

:nod:I agree with Julia, Old major took authority which in there minds needed to be done, but when old major died the pigs started to make rules and use other animals like boxer, who worked harder than any other animal on the windmill but was not treated better by the pigs and eventually as Maiya said betrayed:( (this book was SO good i enjoyed reading it, even though the ending was funky):alien:

As I got further into the novel, I began to wonder if Napolean truely believed in the success of the windmill. Did he actually think it was going to work, or did he simply steal the credit for it from Snowball to gain the other animals' respect and admiration? I also suspect that he encouraged the building of the windmill to keep the thoughts of the animals on the promise of a luxurious future instead of the horrible conditions of their current lives.

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

i agree with all of you. julia- i think that Napoleon did not really fully support the windmill. I also think that Napoleon was trying to keep thoughts of a better future, than for them to figure out that they would not really have a better life than they had in the beggining of the novel. I would like to know how none of the animals had suspected anything about the pigs...and what they were planning to do? How did none of the animals figure out that the pigs gradually became higher in the ranking, of the animals on the farm, and became just like the humans?:confused: :confused: :goof: :eek: :santasmil

Kristen, I belive that the reason the animals did not suspect the pigs is simply that they were...well, dumb. However, I do believe that some, including Benjamin, did understood what was happening. He probably realized that the other animals would not listen to him if he were to tell them that the pigs were using them all. Also, it was in his nature not to include himself in conversation on the farm. Remember, too, that the animals were forgetful; even when they thought they remembered a commandment as being different or having had better lives in the old days, the pigs always convinced them otherwise. Squealer always read them the "statistics" that proved how much better their lives were without humans, and since they could not remember the time when Jones was in control, they believed him.

ok...so i know this is a stupid question...but the pigs changed the commandments. is that correct? i am just a little confused:confused:

Yes, the pigs changed the commandments. However, they told the other animals that the commandments had been that way all along. At first, the animals were skeptical, but they soon passed their doubt off as the unability to remember correctly and went along with their lives under the newly-altered laws. As I said before, Benjamin knew that the pigs were lying to the other animals, but for some reason or another he did not speak up.

Oh, and there is no such thing as a stupid question. :D

Well it said that Benjamin didnt speak up because he knew what was going to happen in the end. It said becasue he had been around so long, that he had seen this before. But i guess the reason he didnt say anything was because he knew the pigs wouldnt stop their plan and the other animals wouldnt believe him anyway.

ok thank you everyone!

I believe that animal farm was a satirical view of communist Russia. As julia said, Snowball was Leon Trotsky and Napoleon was Stalin. I think old major was Lenin?

I assume that the main reason Orwell had the pigs change the commandments and the animals remain passive and seemingly ignorant was because Orwell wanted to demonstrate his point on the control a government has over it's citizens. If you have only ever lived in an environment where you work hard everyday and recieve mud and dirt for your efforts, then you assume that that is how life is. Similar themes can be seen in '1984', where the government has absolute control over information and media and the citizens remain passive because everyone who had remembered better times were long dead. For them, that kind of existence is ordinary.

who is Mr Hat?

Well now, that just about killed any questions I’d been holding, Mr. Hat summed up the symbolism of the entire novel. Great way to put it! But I am still a little confused about Boxers relation ship in the story; the animals obviously hold him valuable, even Napoleon used him as inspiration, even feared him at best. So what was his inspiration?
What is it that drives Boxer to be the hardest worker on the farm, to practically work himself to death? What group of people dose he represent in this story?

I beleive that Boxer represents the uneducated, hard-working class of the social order. He doesn't question why he works he just wants to do it so that he can relax later. Much like a lot of people in our own country.

Ok, that makes perfect since. So boxer represents the working class of Russia, driven by his own ambitions of a peaceful future. And Napoleon fears him, only by his sheer numbers and strength. And Boxer follows Napoleon because he thinks that in doing so, he is promised a better future, not because he understands the principals of the commandments. Ok, then why dose Eric Blair describe him as loosing strength or growing weaker in the book animal farm? What is happening in Russian history (because I really don’t know the history very well) to make him write of boxers slowly dwindling strength? Are the people dieing?

Ps I totaly Remember that show! omg!:banana: all he needs now is some PJ's!

So who is Eric Blair??? and why did they kill Boxer? it seems like for all the work that he did for th farm they would let him retire peacefully....I think that there is foreshadowing in the beginning that the way they are treated by the humans is foreshadowing for whats to come.

;) Hannah

Going back to Katie's comment. Maybe he's saying that it was too late for them to realize what was happening to them. The takeover was finished; noone could do anything anymore. If Boxer went down, then even if they realized it they wouldn't have the strength needed to overthrow Napolean.

Eric Blair is the ACTUAL man that wrote this book. George Orwell is just the pen name. It says it on the very first page of the book. I'm pretty sure he decided to have a pen name because all the ideas and characters were real.

what i dont get is why use a pen name if you say your real name on the first page it takes away the point.........stupid question how old was boxer?


P.S. I like your poem

Well a while ago, before women were allowed to write and publish books, pen names were used a lot. for example J.K. Rowling. If you remember, for a bit, no one knew if she was a man or woman. I dont know why it says his name on the first page. I think it's because this book is a re-published edition of the original Animal Farm. I think Boxer was twelve or just about to turn it, because he was soon to retire.

p.s. thanx ;)

but even so its weird to say it the very beginning of the book and I wonder what his reason was for using a pen name?

How did the pigs loose their snouts?

I'm not sure either. Did the pigs actually change to humans, or did their actions seem like humans? I think soom forshadowing of when the pigs become human is when Napolean meets with Whymper and the neighboring farm owners constantly, but only meets with the animals to give them orders. :(
P.S. Hi and Happy Holidays to every one and I hope you have a great break:thumbs_up :wave: :santasmil (the banana is cool:banana: )

I find it really weird that he talked to humans more than the animals of his farm for all he knew squealer could be plotting against him

Back to charlottes Question, here's a thought. ok, lets say that the humans, Mr. Jones and the surrounding farmers of England represent one kind of governmental leaders. They are selfish and lap themselves in luxury while giving the animals only what they need to survive. Then major and the animals come in together to in rebellion to create themselves a better place to live. Soon the pigs become selfish and changing rules around to sute their own fancies. Be for you know it, they become just like the humans, treating the other animals as lowerley figures and shutting them out. They have changed the government around, what was once a perfect system has been crushed. It is now exactly the same as the humans government. The government system transformed in to the other, …….. sorry, I hope that made some scene. :idea: :D

Happy Holidays:D

answering charlotte's question about the pigs:
the way i took the pigs situation, it seemed to me that the pigs did not actually turn into humans but were mearly acting like humans. i dislike the pigs and dogs in the end of the book...i have a question.....why were the dogs Napoleon's gaurds? yes it is true that the dogs were strong (or so it seemed) but why the dogs? Did Napoleon choose the dogs because he knew that they would not try to overthrow him? :eek2:

:D :lol:
:ladysman:-hehehe this 1 is pretty funny!!!!!!!:D

to answere kristens questions about the dogs

i think the pigs picked the dogs because at the begining of the book it said that they just had a new litter of puppys so the pigs could train them from birth making sure tat they wouldnt queston them or over throw them

Even though Napolean trained the dogs, what if they turned against him for some reason, they could have made the farm theirs. :idea: Katie yours made perfect sense so the pigs can represent our government who can make decisions that we may not like. So greed turned the pigs into just what they hated most, or did they always like the humans and just want the farm for themselves?
P.S. Hi and Happy Holidays to everyone and I hope you have a great break :thumbs_up :wave: :santasmil (the banana is cool:banana:)

:idea: charlotte i think that in the beggining the pigs may have not liked the humans. Towards the end of the book the pigs communicated with the humans because they (the pigs) figured out that the humans ran the farm fairly well, if they did what the humans did then the could rule Animal Farm.

:p :lol:

but wouldn't you think that because of boxer's strength and hard work that the animals would look up to him, instead of the fat pigs?? i don't get how the pigs could out rule boxer?

ok well going to kristen's comment. if the pigs knew that the humans' way of running the farm was good, then why would they make up the commandments about the humans being bad? the pigs told the other animals that the humans way of ruling things was bad. so why would they totaly contradict themselves?:confused:[/COLOR][/COLOR]

ok well going to kristen's comment. if the pigs knew that the humans' way of running the farm was good, then why would they make up the commandments about the humans being bad? the pigs told the other animals that the humans way of ruling things was bad. so why would they totaly contradict themselves?:confused

oops sorry i posted that twice!! :goof:

hey everyone-

i agree with andrew ... each species of animal seems to represent a different class or group of people in our world today. there are people [resembling the dogs & other horses in this book] who tend to understand & recognize wrongdoing when it happens but never make a stand, like the animals on the farm they let injustice occur.

Regarding Julia and Kristens' conversation about the windmill, I think that the main reason Napolean wants it finished is to show everyone up ... to give the illusion to other people & animals that Animal Farm has made the right choices and is getting along well.

oops ... what i wrote was replying to the first page ^^ [i didnt see the other two]

Question: What on earth is going on with the relationship between animals and humans in this book? Humans seem to understand the pigs as they run the farm ... but does it ever mention farmer jones understanding any of the animals??

interseting..what does the windmill represent? something that thousands die for in russia but doesnt help them at all...something that will never really be done but keeps pple working?

I was wondering who Mr. Jones was in the story relating to russia. Someone before the Russian Revolution obviously but who? Are the bordering farms Germany and...China? Does the warring between the humans attacking animal farm represent any particular wars and with what countries? whatsup with benjamin anyway? why is he so lazy and unhelpful when he could do so much.

were the pigs always corrupt? this is a broad Q but heres my take on it. In the beginnning like someone pointed out, major was always elevated and the pigs always sat in front. this hints that they were superior but they are almost rightly superior because they are more intelligent and hae ideas that could improve the farm. but if you look in the very beginning of the animals taking over, the pigs are always the leaders. the milk and the apples were just the beginning. but..were the pigs always corrupt. when they were ruled by the humans were they nasty and evil or did they only become this way once they took over and had power and authority. this brings up the topic of whether humans can ever be fair and equal. power corrupts. could humans ever run a governement like the one set up in animal farm? i dont think so i think the lure of power, money and sex are far too great. people are going to divert from their origiinal path of equality to favor their own needs. it often just starts out in little things, appples and milk but it grows and become even more deadly to a society.