Would anyone care to (re-)read Antony and Cleopatra with me?
I'm going to watch it in London this next January, so I'd like to reread it.
I'm also willing to (re-)read and discuss any other Shakes play :)
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Would anyone care to (re-)read Antony and Cleopatra with me?
I'm going to watch it in London this next January, so I'd like to reread it.
I'm also willing to (re-)read and discuss any other Shakes play :)
Sleepy, several of us are trying to start a Shakespeare read forum, kind of like the book forum but with Shakespeare plays. We were going to start in December. Did you want to start with A&C? A couple of us had thought it might be best to start with 12th Night since Christmas is here.
As an aside, yes I would like to re-read A&C, whether with the forum or not.
That's a great idea with the Shakespeare forum, Virgil ! I haven't read about it around here, but that was probably during the time I was deprived of internet access. But anyway, I hope I may join your club in December ? I'd love to read some more of Willy's plays! :nod:
I'm with you reading Antony and Cleopatra, Sleepy :nod:. Just give me a poke into my side when you want to start ;).
Oh, I so envy you for watching the play on a London stage ! I have been to Stratfort-upon-Avon two years ago, and saw A Midsummer Night's Dream being performed a stonethrow away from Willy's birthplace :). It was really worth the trip :nod:.
No, we (Janine, Petrarch, ShoutGrace and I) just thought this up over the weekend. If you go to the Horatio thread, towards the end we discuss it's possibilities. Scher has PM'd me and said she will set something up. Actually I was proosing starting with Twelfth Night as the first play, since it relates to Christmas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
blach, Henry VI, IV or whatever Henry... yikes, Scher, you'll have to flog me through these :) well, I'll have to read them sooner or later, so why not sooner :)
this Shakes discussion group is a great idea :)
Virgil and Schoko, if you fancy a private read of Antony and Cleopatra, I could get started on it next week or whatever suits you best and then we can discuss it in here.
Schokokeks, the tickets were 40 pounds each and the fligth 134 Euros, plus we'll be staying at a youth hostel for 2 nights because there's no flight back on the same day :( (we= boyfriend and me)
so it's something like 250 Euros each, not including the money we'll have to spend on food and tube tickets.
I know I'm crazy :) But it stars my fave actor Patrick Stewart and when I was a kid I used to dream of seeing him act live. At that time it seemed about as realistic as meeting Santa Clause but meanwhile I've watched Stewart twice and I'm not going to sit here pinching my pennies and regretting not having gone to watch him again :)
Oh you're Patrick Stewart obsession.:lol: Is he Antony, I would guess? I think he would fit the role well.
yep he is :) the funny thing is, he also played Enobarbus before in another RSC production. I've got it on video tape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
erhem, it's a great play, that's why I want to see it :)
Sleepy--I'm always happy to talk about A&C. I did annotations for it about a year ago and developed a fondness for it then. Have fun seeing Patrick Stewart. I'm green with envy! :p
Nej, this is passion !! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Never mind the money, you're not wasting it on exclusive make-up or diamond pants or whatever, but it's ed-u-ca-tion :p, and you'll surely enjoy yourself on your trip. God, I'm so envious ! ;)
Oh, I didn't know Patrick Steward ever did anything beside Star Trek Next Generation :blush:. Did I mention education before :p?
I'm ready for Antony and Cleopatra as soon as you are :nod:.
I'll start this weekend. I hope we can get a good discussion. :)
Oh he's quite an accomplished Shakespearen actor. He stared in the movie version of Twelfth Night and he played Claudius in the BBC version of Hamlet many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
Patrick Stewart as Enobaraus:
http://www.rsc.org.uk/picturesandexh...457_A19a_c.jpg
As Claudius w/ Derek Jacobi as Hamlet:
http://arlenestage.homestead.com/fil...ck_Stewart.jpg
Ooops, That was Ben Kingsly that played in the Twelfth Night movie. Sorry. One bald guy looks just like another. :lol: :lol:
Thanks for the pictures, Virgil, you just did my horizon-broadening for today ;).
Looking forward to discussing Antony and Cleopatra with you :nod:.
cool :) I'll get started on it on Sunday then :) hehe, now I'll have to come up with something intelligent to say about it, seeing as I made you read it :)
Petrarch's Love, you did annotations for A&C? Are you one of those people who go "wait, this guy shouldn't enter from the left, he should be on the right because it changes the meaning of the whole play. The foul copy editor must have got it wrong. Oh and there should be a semi-colon instead of a comma here!" ?
Ever heard of a guy called Johnathan Bate who edited the new Arden Titus? He was one of my profs at Warwick and could go on about things like this for ages...:sick:
erhem :) no they don't :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
wow, I didn't know he was in Hamlet with Derek Jacobi (another of my fave actors). Would that be the production by what's his name that caused a lot of stir because Jacobi was a bit old to play Hamlet?
I wonder if Sleepy has noticed my last comment in my last post above. :rolleyes:
Oh nooooooo, now I finally understand your signature, Sleepy ! Didn't struck me until now in the light of this thread!! Yes, I'm slow, I know :D
Wow, I never knew you studied at Warwick. I hear it is one of the best departments in the UK for English. Were you there on ERASMUS ?
So will I :nod:.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Well, Jacobi was forty-ish when he played it. I didn't know it caused a problem. He did a great job. It is the best Hamlet I have ever seen. You might want to check it out, if you can find the DVD. It is the BBC production. And Stewart did a fine job as Claudius.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
erhem, DAAD :blush:Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
hee, make sure you get good marks and apply with the DAAD, too, it's so much better than ERASMUS. They pay you 375 Euros a month and you get the money every month, not at the end of your year abroad after you've paid for everything yourself.
I'll keep an eye open for the DVD, Virgil..
sorry wrong expression.. it didn't really cause a problem.. I read a snide comment about Jacobi's age by some critic in a text book, but i don't think there were any major problems
I am all for doing "Twelfth Night" for December - seems more Christmasy. But that can be on the formal discussion group under Shakespeare or play of the month - however they decide to set it up and label it. But you guys can have a separate discussion on "Antony and Cleopatra" on this thread - hey, why not?
I just saw the Jacobi "Hamlet" version, thanks to Virgil, and it was great! Do see it, since you like Jacobi and the guy (forget his name now) playing Claudius. I am not that familiar with this actor, but did recognise him when I viewed this BBC version of "Hamlet". I thought he was in "Star Trek - Next Generation". Interesting Sleepy Witch, thanks for clarifying that for me.
Great still photos, Virgil. Thanks!
I am starting with Antony and Cleopatra today, and have borrowed a copy from the university library. They had lots of editions to choose from, and I picked the Arden, but now I find that there are so many on-page annotations packed with references to other works, discussions over 2 pages on one word, and lots of other information that disturb my flow of reading (we aren't reading this 100% scholarly anyway, are we...?). In case you do want to discuss the place of a specific comma, I'd stick to the Arden, of course :D, but if not I'll go and get another one. I had a quick look into the Oxford edition, which I liked better (more vocabulary explanations for the non-native me :D).
Anyway, which edition are you using ?
I started reading last night, and got through the first 2 acts. Should be done with it by tommorow. ;)
One thing that I quickly became aware of (it might not be as important for those with a more sophisticated knowledge of the times) is the great benefit knowing the history of the events surrounding the drama accords to the reader. Knowing all about the Pompey's (The Great, his son, his son's son, etc) clarified things a great deal for me.
I wish I would have read "Julius Caesar" beforehand, as well . . . as "Antony and Cleopatra," while not being a continuation of it per se, still follows after - and much of the history there would be beneficial to understanding these characters, again.
I'm just using the cheapest possible edition of paperback that I could find in the nearest bookstore (I was pressed for time), but I also have a "complete works," one which you don't seem to be able to get outside of the U.S. I'm going to look around for a book relating to the "History behind Shakespeare's Roman Dramas" or something like that.
Let me know when you guys are done. :D
Janine, I'm definitely hoping you can join in. :)
Don't overlook one of Shakespeare's principal sources -- Plutarch's Parallel Lives. For the play Antony and Cleopatra, the life of Antony is especially important (of course). I'm not sure if the translation that Shakespeare himself used is still being printed, but there are a number of translations on the market today, all of which would probably be more readable than the one Shakespeare himself used.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutGrace
Not a big deal about having not read Julius Caesar. Only two characters carry over, Ocatavius and Antony. And they are now older. I think historically these events occured about ten years after. Both to summarize it, Ocatvius (Caesar's nephew and step son) and Antony (Caesar's lead General) had teamed up to defeat Ceaear's assassins and now share power over the empire. The two now are at odds for sole control. That's essentially where A&C starts. One last thing is their personalities. Ocatvius is cool and calculating; Antony is...well, you'll see. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoutGrace
I've been a very bad Witch :crash: I started writing a short story and couldn't get myself to do anything else. so i haven't got started on A&C yet :( can you give me till next week?
I'll try my best to get started on it by Thursday, but I have to write my story first.
Oh hey, don't worry, I for my part will try to have understood it by Thursday :p.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
And since you were the one who got us started, we will of course wait for you :nod:.
Just saw this. Yes, what a bad witch. :sick: I made sure i read the first act last night, staying up way past my bedtime. And now here at work and I'm so sleepy. :yawnb:Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
A little dramatics on my part. :D
But I really did read the first act and was going to post something.
poor Virgil. I'm sorry. I'll squeeze in the first act tonight then..
*bump* For those who may have missed this thread, we are reading Antony and Cleopatra over the next few weeks and discussing it here.
Hi guys. I hadn't realized that everyone was getting a December discussion going here. You can definately count me in.
Guilty as charged. :blush: Actually I didn't have much to do with the textual preperation of the edition I worked on, since they already had the rights to an established text (I would have loved to have more of a say on those choices though). My job was writing the footnotes and glosses, meaning that I was explaining historical context, tricky or antiquated language, etc. Basically that means I've written some sort of gloss or commentary for nearly every line in the play. :lol:Quote:
Petrarch's Love, you did annotations for A&C? Are you one of those people who go "wait, this guy shouldn't enter from the left, he should be on the right because it changes the meaning of the whole play. The foul copy editor must have got it wrong. Oh and there should be a semi-colon instead of a comma here!" ?
Yeah, I would imagine if you were doing an Arden edition you'd get pretty caught up in it. That must be a fantastic project to do. He did a great job with Titus if I remember right.Quote:
Ever heard of a guy called Johnathan Bate who edited the new Arden Titus? He was one of my profs at Warwick and could go on about things like this for ages...
Shokokeks--Yes, the Ardens are great scholarly editions but they can be a bit overboard for a casual read. I read all the major editions of the play when I was working on the annotations, and I really liked the footnotes the Bantam edition for being both concise and accessible. The Oxford is also good, but sometimes inclined to be a bit more academic like the Arden. Hope you find an edition you like. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
"..the next few weeks" --> I'm reliefed :) my story is doing fine but I still haven't read any A&C... bad witchy :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir :) ) but I haven't looked at it yet.
yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture :)
Well, I'm not going to wait for the sleepy people. :D I'm going to start the conversation.
In the fist scene of Act I, we are introduced to Antony, first through an observation by one of his soldiers, Philo. And he sees this once great general transformed: "this dotage of our general's/O'erflows the measure" and
And then enters Cleo and Ant and in most dramatazations they are pretty lovey-dovey, kissing throughout the scene and grasping each other.Quote:
...his captain's heart,
Which in the scuffles of great fights hath burst
The buckles on his breast, reneges all temper,
And is become the bellows and the fan
To cool a gipsy's lust
And what we see is a lack of responsibility on Ant's part. Messengers come from Rome with news and he scoffs at them:
I think the metaphor of "dungy earth" feeding beasts may be one of the central metaphors of the play. Out of rich earth one is fed to satisfaction so that the hard work of empire becomes a drag, a hinderence on one's work. The "nobleness of life" is not to build arches and kingdoms but to luxeriate in the love and sensuality of the woman.Quote:
MARK ANTONY
Let Rome in Tiber melt, and the wide arch
Of the ranged empire fall! Here is my space.
Kingdoms are clay: our dungy earth alike
Feeds beast as man: the nobleness of life
Is to do thus; when such a mutual pair
The messenger is never even listened to.
There is more here (Cleopatra's personality), but for another post.
Thank you, Petrarch's Love, I'll go and have a look at the Bantam editon then :nod:.
Tssssss, Fauli, really ! :rolleyes:. Up to here, you had been my hero :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
I'm done with the first act so far, and will be joining the discussion soon (staying at a friend's, don't have my copy at hand)
There's a copy on lit net authors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
Well, it looks like Virgil has us started off on our discussion of scene one. As Virg. points out, some of the highlights to this scene are the speeches describing Antony's transformation from the warrior and empire maker to the lover. In the opening lines, and then throughout the play there are many allusions to the disarmament of Mars, the god of war, by Venus the god of love, which was a popular subject during the Renaissance. When starting this play I'm always reminded of the painting of Mars disarmed by Venus by Botticelli:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...Mars-venus.jpg
Another thing that you can start to see in this scene, and that a lot of people remark on about this play in general, is that the set speeches or soliloquays in the play are usually given to characters other than Antony and Cleopatra, while the two main characters spend a lot of their time in dialogue (often with each other). One thing we might want to think about as we're reading the play is where and how Shakespeare chooses to use dialogue, since it's really a great play for that.
I think the line that stands out most to me in this first scene is Cleopatra's declaration that "Antony/ Will be himself" (1.1.44-45). Within it's immediate context the line ambiguously might suggest any number of things. She might be meaning to imply that Antony will be his Roman self by paying attention to the message rather than her; or she might mean that he is being a fool by being himself; or that when he's himself he's a liar. In terms of the play in general the question of who Antony is, and what it means for him to be himself crops up again and again.
As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.
Ah, all we academic types fondly dream that someday we too will be famous enough that students will come to us with copies of the Oxford Advanced Dictionary looking for autographs. :lol: Seriously, though I understand the feeling. I remember being thrilled when I first came here and a very famous Shakespeare professor who's on our faculty (actually, the same prof. I'll be teaching with next term) signed the copy of the Renaissance drama anthology he recently edited and that we were using in class. There's something special about getting to meet the people who we normally think of as some sort of faceless authority on the page. The professor I refer to also incidently turned out to be a perfectly delightful human being who has parties at his house for his students on a regular basis, which is another perque of meeting scholars in the flesh rather than just reading their books. ;)Quote:
PL, I've got Jonathan Bate's Titus on my book shelf (bought it as a souvenir ) but I haven't looked at it yet.
yeah! I've studied with a famous professor! yeehas. *not showing off at all* I've even got his signature in my Oxford Advanced Dictionary because he had to approve it for the exam. hahah, I just walked in there and said "Excuse me Jonathan, could I have your signature?" and he said "Yes sure" and signed it without a fuss. He didn't bothered to find out that it was monolingual (only bilingual dictionaries were allowed!). Hehehe, I love English univ culture
Just stopping by to say hi, so you won't forget me and think I am not interested in the Sh discussions, not the case at all. I see you seem to be getting the discussion off the ground in some capacity. I don't think I will be participating very much this month - I have too much to do leading to the holidays, and I am reading other things I have to finish up first. I have not read A&C, or I would have participated. I will pick up on Twefth Night and the play for January.
That ambiguity is clearly important, because in the next scene Antony comes to his senses. But we'll get to scene two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Back to scene I. Not only is she a tease, but she hits him where it hurts, almost challening his command and power. It is the reversal of imperium (1. Absolute rule; supreme power. 2. A sphere of power or dominion; an empire.), the Roman authority to command. What kind of a Roman is he here, one can ask?
Her teasing are subjects that hit hard. He's a married man and Cleo brings up his wife's emotions. What married man who's having an affair would want to have that brought up. And she then brings up his political equal and she characterizes him as a boy, but a boy who has the power to order Antony to do things. She is making him diminutive, and exerting her power. And she continues:Quote:
CLEOPATRA
Nay, hear them, Antony:
Fulvia perchance is angry; or, who knows
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His powerful mandate to you, 'Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform 't, or else we damn thee.'
It makes Antony blush, a grizzled soldier blush? She's in command, and he is in dotage.Quote:
CLEOPATRA
Perchance! nay, and most like:
You must not stay here longer, your dismission
Is come from Caesar; therefore hear it, Antony.
Where's Fulvia's process? Caesar's I would say? both?
Call in the messengers. As I am Egypt's queen,
Thou blushest, Antony; and that blood of thine
Is Caesar's homager: else so thy cheek pays shame
When shrill-tongued Fulvia scolds. The messengers!
finished off my story (check it out :) )
will get started on A&C tonight.
sorry again.