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Hey I submitted a short story in the October elimination. I did not get great reviews based on the number of votes. [Thanks Jean-Babtiste for your vote; the other was my own.] But I would like to get feedback. Please feel free to be critical. I really would like to get your thoughts.
Here's the story again:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...2&d=1159702272
Hey Virgil,
This could be a very good story you are just not capturing the reader in your story. It is good to use imagery in your story but you should consider reading it and seeing if you enjoy it.
The problem with your imagery is that is too chopped and you tend to get tired of reading.
This is the beginning of your story
"They walk into the shop. Reno carries a notebook, Moss carries a metal part. They step around a puddle, each circles around the opposite side, and Reno opens the inner door of the anteroom. Moss walks in ahead, goes in three quick steps, suddenly stops and waits for Reno. When Reno catches up, Moss sticks out the metal part. “Hold this a second.” Reno slides the notebook under his upper arm and takes the part, hefty in his hand. Moss straightens his tie. The tie is colorful, stripes in the form of serpents, alternating colors of green, red, and yellow on a purple background. Reno hands the part back to Moss and makes a face at the garish tie. Moss acknowledges the look with a return look of lifting eyebrows."
How about this (although mine is not perfect either)
They ackwardly negotiate a puddle on their way into the shop. A machine shop that is. Moss almost drops his notebook when Reno shoves him a metal object to adjust his brightly colored tie.
Keep working on your story. There is a story there but you have to make it interesting to want to read. Read some books that you enjoy reading and see how they write and you'll get an idea of what you want to do.
Thank you for your comments and the time it took to read the story. I appreciate it. I think the problem some may have is the shift in point of view mid way, from the two guys walking in to Baldini. Did you have a problem with that, or was it smooth enough to feel natural?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vada Dagon
I notice you're in Iraq. Keep safe, and let me tell you I am so proud of the work you guys are doing and of your courage.
Hey Virgil,
The problem with the story is not the story itself but that it doesn't transition from one point to another. Rather it transitions in a manner that is not very enjoyable to read.
Short sentences are good, in fact many things are good. Jumping thought, mid-sentence transitions are good but they have to be done in a certain way.
For example
Moss and Reno nervous enter the shop. Puddle, rain, jump. No one around. Damn! Empty shop. A call made which echo answered. A whirring sound from above; is that a man?
These are short sentences which are interrelated but they flow in a manner that seem to flow and yet still give you the sense that there is something jittery or choppy.
OK, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vada Dagon
It's a good plot, but I agree that the choppy sentences are distracting, particularly in the begining (and are rather surprising, actually, coming from a Faulkner-over-Hemingway kind of a guy). They work best when there are some longer, more elegant sentences floating around for contrast, particularly in the semi-stream-of-consciousness passages where Baldini is conversing with his father in his head.
I think, if possible, you should make the scene with the shears a bit more of a big deal.
On the whole, however, I like the plot, I like Baldini, a like the neurosis and I like the setting. I just think the prose could be a bit neater.
Thank you Joe. I do want good critical comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
First, there was a lot about this story I really liked. I thought the dialogue sounded really natural and I thought having his father's voice in his head was well integrated into the story and felt emotionally real (which is a good thing, and not always easy to pull off).
I agree with what others have said about some of the sentences seeming too clipped. I also think the transitions could flow a little better. One way to improve this is to concentrate on establishing a particular and memorable image or phrase toward the end of one segment and then re-introducing that same image or word choice, but in a new context in the following segment. You see this in movies all the time. The director does a close-up on a certain object (an old baseball in a case) and then cuts to the same object in either the past or future (the same baseball in a pitcher's hand as he's about to throw it to Joe DiMaggio) as a way of transitioning from one point of view (present day DiMaggio fan) to another (guy in '41 trying to strike out DiMaggio). For example, in your biggest shift from the point of view of Moss and Reno to that of Baldini, you focus toward the end of the Moss and Reno sectioin on a description of Baldini's ponytail. If you started the next paragraph with Baldini catching a glimpse of himself and his ponytail in the bathroom mirror before he turns to use the urinal, I think it might make it a smoother transition. The reader would have an image to latch on to that's already been introduced to them, so there wouldn't be the chance of an akward break in continuity, and it would cue the reader that there's a shift going on from how others are seeing Baldini to how he sees himself. Just a suggestion, of course. As I say, overall I thought it was pretty well done. :)
Thank you Petrarch. I wish I had gotten more than one vote. :D
Alright Virgil, I reluctantly consent to enter in my comments (as I doubt they will help you, seeing as how I am woefully underqualified as far as criticism and recommendation are concerned). :D
The kinds of things that I most noticed during my first reading were topical, having to do with tenses, sentence structure, etc. So I’ll post a few of those and hopefully you can tell me if I’m reading them incorrectly or not.
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The step past the anteroom door leads into the open area of the machine shop. Almost the size of half a football field. Ceiling up about three stories.
For these last two sentences, it feels as if something is missing . . . they are cut, and lack some modifiers somewhere, i.e. “It ‘was’ (is) almost the size of half a football field. The ceiling ‘stretched’ (stretches) up about three stories.”
The very next sentence, your tense is very much in the present:
Quote:
The volume of the space alters the sound of the footsteps, gives it a slight echo.
The footsteps are not “giving” an echo, there isn't any “gave,” they “give” an echo here. There were a couple of times in the story when the tense wasn’t maintained, but I’m not sure if that was on purpose or not.
BTW, should the above sentence have a “them” in place of your “it?” There are multiple footsteps, not just one.
As for tenses, here:
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As they approached it, they hear voices of workmen chattering and laughing.
Seems like it should be “approach.” Am I wrong?
And again here:
Quote:
He washed his hands vigorously trying to take the machine grease off the tops of his fingers. Then he slaps the hand dryer and shakes his hands underneath it.
The tenses are varying, though I can’t be sure if this is purposeful or not.
I agree with cuppajoe_9 here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
That section was just bumpy and anticlimactic – perhaps it had to do with the tense you'd set for yourself? I'm not even sure if it was the “climax” - help! :blush:
Quote:
With a swift motion Baldini thrusts the shears and snips the tie at the base of the knot. O’Brien and Reno pull back Moss, who is cussing wildly. Baldini is left with the tie strips dangling in one hand, the shears in the other, and his pony tail bouncing with every jerk of his laughing head.
Then the cut to Baldini’s apartment. I said to myself, “What? Ok then . . .”
Hahaha. I welcome all comments, no matter what their qualification. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ShoutGrace
They lack verbs and here it was done intentionally. I don't find it problematic. It was the style I was after.Quote:
For these last two sentences, it feels as if something is missing . . . they are cut, and lack some modifiers somewhere, i.e. “It ‘was’ (is) almost the size of half a football field. The ceiling ‘stretched’ (stretches) up about three stories.”
You think that's a dangling modifier? I feels like "gives" refers to to footsteps and "it" refers to space. We probably need an expert here to resolve this. I'll ask Petrarch.Quote:
The footsteps are not “giving” an echo, there isn't any “gave,” they “give” an echo here. There were a couple of times in the story when the tense wasn’t maintained, but I’m not sure if that was on purpose or not.
Yes, I think you're right here.Quote:
BTW, should the above sentence have a “them” in place of your “it?” There are multiple footsteps, not just one.
As for tenses, here:
You are definitely correct here. All tenses should have been in present. It's easy to slip up. I'm not good at editing. Actually I asked two others to look over the grammar and they both missed those.Quote:
Seems like it should be “approach.” Am I wrong?
And again here:
The tenses are varying, though I can’t be sure if this is purposeful or not.
I agree with cuppajoe_9 here:
That was not the climax of the entire story, just the initial conflict. The climax, if i got it correctly done, was feeling of the loss of his mother at the end.Quote:
That section was just bumpy and anticlimactic – perhaps it had to do with the tense you'd set for yourself? I'm not even sure if it was the “climax” - help! :blush:
Then the cut to Baldini’s apartment. I said to myself, “What? Ok then . . .
I agree with the points others stated above. What really caught my attention is Virg's high ability of setting the scenes and giving visual description of the characters, esp. Baldini, all through my reading of the story there was a certain image of Baldini in my mind based on the description Virg gave, his body, his ponytail, his face and his temper, I can see him talking …fighting in a moving picture. The imagination is effectively worked out. I like how you employed the flashbacks to serve the plot of the story. They make the story more interesting and thought provoking.
Had good time reading it, looking forward to other coming stories.
Is there going to be a revised version? I have not read your story yet Virg, but I wish too and I will read the one here unless you're planning to show us an updated version. Or are you looking for criticism more to be aware when writing your next piece?
Not planning yet Tend. I wanted to give about six months or so to let me kind of forget about it for now and then go back to it. I would be more objective then.Quote:
Originally Posted by TEND
Thanks Miss T.
You're welcome for the vote, Virgil. I did that because I was incredibly impressed with the story. I thought that it was a brilliant portrayal of one of the myriad variations of human emotion.
I liked the opening scene very much. I appreciated the stilted nature of the description.
The transition into the second half of the story was very well executed. There is such a realistic change of mood, not only for the early characters, but a palpable one for the characters in the breakroom as well. The scene represented for me an ultimate clashing of two very distinct sets of emotion.
The motivations of this character, Baldini, are very well developed, although this development comes to fruition only at the end of the story. This, however, does not lend itself to any sort of detriment.
Listen, Virgil, I'll end there because this is running the risk of turning into a tirade of picking out every bit of this story and affirming my appreciation for it. I know that it's not very helpful to say that I simply liked it--all of it--but I can't find anything that I would suggest changing.
In any case, thanks for sharing your story with us. Again, I was very impressed. :)
Thank you so much Jean. You have made my day!!!!:thumbs_up It nice to find someone who appreciated it. I am now all smiles.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Baptiste
These are the kinds of things I can't discern, and it's good that you're explaining them. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
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Originally Posted by Virgil
Alright, but you've confused me here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Which one is it? :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well, I'm considering editing positions for a base salary of $50,000 a year, if you're interested. ;) Then you can have my outstanding clerical skills on hand for all your short story needs. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I fear I may be an inapt short story reader.
Why was the introduction of the first two characters so detailed and complex (as compared to Baldini's part)? I'm going to re-read it again from this perspective, but what does 70% of the story have to do with the final line? So much of it seemed to be concerned with the first two fellows, and their involvement with the plot.
Don't tell me if it's something that I might get the 3rd time around, I guess.
The fact that someone as competent as Jean-Baptiste is enamored with it makes me doubt that I'm reading it correctly. I'll think about it for a little while this time, and then comment more on the elements, rather than the mechanical side. :D
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Originally Posted by Shoutgrace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoutgrace
Ack, no, don't change that "it." I don't think Virg. is neccesarily dangling any modifiers here. Here's the sentence in question again:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
To bring it down to bare bones, the subject of the main clause (and the implied subject of the subordinate clause) is "volume," the verb is "alters" and the object is "sound." Thus Virg. had good parallel instincts when he referred back to "the sound" as a singular "it" in the subordinate clause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virg.'s story
If this were in the more formal context of one of my students' papers I would probably suggest a change to the participle form of the verb ("The volume of the space alters the sound of the footsteps, giving it a slight echo), or insert a conjunction between the two clauses so that it would read ("The volume of the space alters the sound of the footsteps and gives it a slight echo." Either of these would lend greater technical clarity to the sentence. In the context of a creative work, however, I think this reads just fine.
Thanks Petrarch.
Hey, Virg -- I'll edit yours if you edit mine. :)
On a grammar point, I feel like the "Hey, have you seen..." dialogue needs a question mark. Might just be me, but that's the inflection I heard in my head. Similarly, "Hey yo" might work better with a comma between the two words.Quote:
“Hey, have you seen Baldini,” he yells out. The operator is oblivious to anyone talking to him, his eyes fixed up at the crane. He is aiming the crane to be centered over the milling machine. Moss steps toward him and waves his arm to get his attention. “Yo. Hey yo.” The operator’s eyes catches Moss, acknowledges him with a head nod, and raises his index finger from his right hand as a sign he needs another minute.
One of the things that struck a slightly off chord with me was the sheer number of sentences with passive voice and/or linking verbs, although I'm probably just channeling my English professor. This is a good example -- it seems to me like the second sentence could be integrated into the first as an appositive, stuck in right after the introduction of Baldini and separated by commas.Quote:
Within seconds Baldini enters the break room, adjusting his fly as he comes through the doorway. He is a tall, stocky man wearing worn jeans and a soiled polo shirt that appears a half size too small.
Last thing, I swear. If he's yelling, why not an exclamation point?Quote:
“No,” yells O’Brien trying to pull back Baldini’s large body.
Overall, I liked your story. I don't really mind the choppiness -- it could be a bit smoother, sure, but I'm occasionally partial to keeping things short and simple. There's a couple grammar tweaks that would be nice here and there, but you certainly don't need me to fix those. Overall, nice work. I'm impressed, by your distinct style and your concept.
Sure Robin. But I won't get to yours until after the weekend, if you don't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I combined those two quotes because they are similar in nature. It's how does one handle the punctuation inside the dialogue when the sentence continues. Yes, the first has a question inflection and the second is an exclamation. I frankly am not sure how to handle that. Wouldn't you have double punctuation for that sentence if one put a question mark and exclamation mark and then ended the sentence with a period? Perhaps someone can help here. If not, I'll look it up.Quote:
On a grammar point, I feel like the "Hey, have you seen..." dialogue needs a question mark. Might just be me, but that's the inflection I heard in my head...
Last thing, I swear. If he's yelling, why not an exclamation point?
I was after a particular style. Closer to the thought structure of the central character.Quote:
One of the things that struck a slightly off chord with me was the sheer number of sentences with passive voice and/or linking verbs, although I'm probably just channeling my English professor. This is a good example -- it seems to me like the second sentence could be integrated into the first as an appositive, stuck in right after the introduction of Baldini and separated by commas.
Thank you.Quote:
Overall, I liked your story.
As I understand it, the American way of doing in-quote punctuation is as follows:
Quotations that would normally end in a period but are not the end of the sentence have a comma. For example:
In contrast, if it IS the end of the sentence, it ends with a period, as it should.Quote:
"Virgil is an excellent writer," said most of the forumers.
If the quotation is split, it goes comma first, appropriate punctuation last.Quote:
At least four of the forumers said, "Virgil is an excellent writer."
Question marks and exclamation points, in my understanding (someone better versed in grammar may feel free to correct me) are never replaced, regardless of their position.Quote:
"Virgil," said most of the forumers, "is an excellent writer."
These, of course, are all for quotes that are complete thoughts. If you want to have a quotation trail off or be interrupted, you can use an ellipsis "..." or an em dash "--" as necessary. Keep in mind, this is the American precedent. In Britain, the correct punctuation mark for the sentence as a whole, regardless of the contents of the quotation, is added outside the quotation marks in addition to any punctuation inside the quotation marks.Quote:
"Is Virgil an excellent writer?" asked the new member.
"YES, HE IS!" replied the forumers.
Thanks Robin. So I need to correct the punctuation you pointed out. I hope Petrarch stops by here and comments on this. She would be the expert.
You completed my intended summary regarding the topic for my lil' sis, Rob, thanks. I, too, am very concerned and very particular with punctuations and and punctuations inside quotations and these I will gladly pass on to my sisters, which they crave to learn about. In writing, for me, everything should be flawless to read or I easily get distracted and then cannot help myself but to comment on the mistakes and correct them. I am my sisters' editor when they write stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I suppose I could comment on Uncle Virgil's story, but I have yet to read it. (I'll read it, Uncle Virg, I swear. Just have to make time for it. :) ) Although I feel the way that Shoutgrace does; that I am not qualified to comment and criticize any professional's work. And I reckon everything's been covered already, but I'll try and say my view on the story. And anyway, Uncle Virg said that " I welcome all comments, no matter what their qualification."
Laindwessiel, I'm not a professional. I was only teasing Shoutgrace. Even he was tongue in cheek. He was referring to our dispute on Shakespeare's Ghost thread.
hey Virg, I read your story..
I think I'll have to read it again, though to give you feedback...
I liked your description of the setting and the character's appearance, as well as his mental dialogue with his father
But I didn't quite get what it is that Baldini did to Moss's cylinder (probably that's my own fault because I don't know the first thing about mechanics (?) and couldn't be bothered to look it up) and what all of this has got to do with his mother....
did i miss anything important about the psychology of peeing? Sorry if I'm being even thicker than usual :) WHY was his mom upset? Does it have anything to do with the story? :???:Quote:
Pop, I was eight before mom died and we were on that road trip to Cooperstown and we had to pee and you pulled over on the side of the road and you taught me to go in the woods, why was mom upset when we got back to the car?
I don’t know son. I don’t know.
Hey thanks for reading it Sleepy. The specifics of what he did aren't that important. He screwed it up is what is really important. He machined it to the wrong dimension.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Yes this is critical to the story. The point I hoped the story was asking was why is Baldiini the way he is. And the answer to that hopefully subtly implied was the lack of the feminine in his upbringing. He has lived in a completely massculine world from the death of his mother. That final scene I hoped would carry that significance in a dramatic event, a masculine experience of stopping to urinate and the critical reaction, that will be lacking in Baldini's future, from his mother. I hate to explain a story to death like this. It should be a story. But you were so good with discussing your story, I feel I should be as open with mine. But frankly a story should hold up as a story (a weird character with some emotional problems) without all that explanation.Quote:
did i miss anything important about the psychology of peeing? Sorry if I'm being even thicker than usual :) WHY was his mom upset? Does it have anything to do with the story? :???:
yep, it should..Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
hum, I think it was the peeing business that confused me... it made my little brain cell look for some horrid Freudian meaning behind his behaviour.
ok.. I got that the first time round, so you've managed to bring across your point :) But I agree with the others that the scene where he cuts off Moss's tie could be more detailed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Maybe Moss and the other guy could talk about Baldini a bit more on their way to the place where he works? To give the reader a better impression of "the way he is"??? If I remember correctly they do curse about him and talk about the cylinder but they could make some more general comments about what he's like to illustrate that he often behaves this way and is widely known as a rough guy?
OK, thanks. I was limited to 2000 words. I was close to that.
heehee, don't be grumpy our Virgil.:) I didn't mean to say "you should have done this and that". I'm very aware of the 2,000 words limit. I meant, if you want to make some changes to your story (after those 6 months you mentioned) then you could....:)
I wasn't grumpy. Not at all.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Late as usual, Virgil, rough night! I recall this story, and the problematic changes in verb tenses were the thing with which I had the post problem. Action takes place either in the present, past, or future, but it cannot take place in all at once. Jumping from one to another confuses people. :)
Yeah, I slipped a couple of times. I'm a lousy proof reader. Thanks for the comment. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
Wow, quite good. Reminds me of my Dad's writing, great dialouge (but he is lacking is setting description, thankfully I'm very good at that ^_^).
I didn't notice anything outstandinly wrong with it, except that I don't really get the ending. Yes, i'm young and naive, but I think theres something just on the edge of my mind that I can't quite grasp. Why was his mother mad when they got back from the forest?
Am I grasping at air, or is there some subtleties that I've missed?
Brainstrain, I think I answered your question on post #27 on the previous page. Thanks for the compliment.Quote:
Originally Posted by brainstrain
Hi Virgil
Im sorry you didnt get so many votes.
I like your description of Baldini as he is coming out from the loo.
I like the shifts in perspective (e.g. from Reno and Moss to Baldini and his thoughts)
I wonder if the tie bit might be symbolic of something? Baldini seems to me like he feel hes not good enough, doesnt measure up and ties are symbolic of...smart, office wall-street stuff, so the cutting of them with something like shears...???
However, I didnt like your beginning and ending! The main bits!
In the beginning your sentences are not only too short but so many at once, all focusing on actions. Actually I don;t know, your beginning just wasn't strong.
You lack setting and atmosphere, the dialogue does seem a bit realistic but your description of the world around seems 'fake', i cant picture the world.
The ending reminds me of Willy Loman and his relationships with one of his sons (Biff?) in Death of a salesman by Miller. There seems to be a dark twist. I 'm not sure what the connection is between the last few lines and the rest of the story, we have to work too hard to connect the dots. I wonder if perhaps you can rewrite ending, show us something, don't tell.
Hope I've helped.
Of course you have. Thanks for taking the time Opti. When I go to rewrite the story, I'll come back to this thread and review all the comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by optimisticnad