http://img.tfd.com/authors/tolstoy.jpg
In November, we are reading The Death of Ivan Ilych by Tolstoy.
Please post your comments and questions here.
Online Copy
Book Club Procedures
Printable View
http://img.tfd.com/authors/tolstoy.jpg
In November, we are reading The Death of Ivan Ilych by Tolstoy.
Please post your comments and questions here.
Online Copy
Book Club Procedures
floating Kidney?
There is only one copy of this book in the Country libraries and it has gone missing. So I will try to see if I can find it at the local bookstore this weekend.
Meanwhile, I am reading Atonement *finally*.
I have not started yet. Perhaps next week.
Yeah, I know! This is the second time I've read it and I remember wondering the first time if we are supposed to take the illness literally or figuratively because seriously, floating kidney?! I checked the internet and found a medical paper from 1907 describing the condition of a floating kidney and it can be caused by trauma but it's not life threatening. I have often wondered though, in the case of Ivan Ilych, was this the real diagnosis? Or is the illness is just supposed to be a sort of figurative maligancy caused by the emptiness and falseness of Ivan's life or was the illness real but with emotional causes, not physical?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Like I said I have not started, but from when I first read it I thought the illness was a mysterious illness that no one could figure out. Things didn't make sense.
I was wondering if all that medicine contributed to his illness.
I read the novella a number of years ago for the second time. Death is far removed from us when we are young, but is something we get to experience with Ivan. We see the anxiety by those who care for him as authoritarian, detached and even condescending. His doctors would not tell him the truth. The were sorry and expressed pity which Ivan experiened as demeaning his condition.
Fortunately Ivan's his young servant performs all the necessary care when he can no longer take care of his needs himself. The young man treats him with a calm and dignified manner preserving Ivan from being made to feel embarrased. He is the only one who acknowledges that Ivan is dying and needs special care and it is this desire to ease the suffering that frees Ivan from the isolation of his suffering.
I was with my mother when she died and when I started to cry she said, "Don't make it any harder for me than it is." I didn't understand what she meant at that moment. But she was dealing with dying and didn't want to preform the motherly duty of caring for me. She was simply asking me to be there with her and to let her go.
I've read this book several times, and I love it. Don't pay attention to the injury, it is a mechanism to bring about a desired affect. Remember medicine was in its early stages, and little was known. Tolstoy is using the floating kidney as a vague mechanism with which to bring down Ivan Illyich in a prolonged and agonising manner.
You should focus on the events prior to his injury and after. Why does Ivan howl for days near the end? What is the motivator for this? If this book doesn't make you think, then no book will. I quit a miserable job and moved to the mountains to be a ski bum after reading this.
Oh and, long time no see... sorry been fixing myself up after an accident in New Zealand last spring...9 months of physical therapy and I am doing much better.
How do you like it? I found "Atonement" a pretty difficult read. It is nice to read it after Tolstoy's trilogy about his childhood because the main hero(Prince Dmitry Nekhludov, as far as I remember) plays an important role in "Youth" too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Finally started The Death of Ivan Ilych.
Initial comments: Tolstoy starts with the death in the first chapter so that he has taken a cicular form. The story starts with the death and goes through process of how he died. [Interestingly, Roth, did the same in Everyman.] And Tolstoy divides the work into 12 chapters, the twelve points of a clock, so that the circling back to the death mirrors the motion of time.
Another intersting observation from the first chapter. Ivan's closest work friend, and the one who feels the death the most is named Peter Ivanovich. He links Peter with Ivan by having the middle name of Ivanovich, which if I remember is derived from Peter's father's name, which must have been Ivan also. Any Russian expert out there who can confirm this? And does Ivan translate into John in English? Also, Peter is, and I don't think this is a coincident, the name of Christ's closest apostle, and the one who denied knowing Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Wow, I didn't even notice.
I think the last few lines of the story really interested me. Made me like the whole story - I'm not to crazy about that Ivan.
Not sure where you are going with the linking of Peter with Ivan. Ivan would be the equivalent of John. Many western nations use a middle name or christian name. Russia uses the Peter Ivanovich as a paternal name. It is a sign of closeness or familiarity with a person...to know their father's name.
Ok, back to why did you feel that there was a link to peter, and does it matter? Why does the name peter associated with Christ matter? Tolstoy was deeply spritual, but he wavers between his faith and his spirituality (see War & Peace)
Personally, I believe that what Tolstoy is trying to convey is more about life than death. Do you think ivan illych was satisfied with his life?
I'm not sure where I'm going either with it. It was just an observation, and it feels like it could not be a coincident. Not sure if it matters. The "Ivanovich" link feels more important than the "Peter" association. I read this novella many years ago, so I know the general plot. But it's been long enough to where I don't recall nuances. It may or may not matter. Let me read on.Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Mental
I haven't gotten that far. I'll get back to this when I get further..Quote:
Personally, I believe that what Tolstoy is trying to convey is more about life than death. Do you think ivan illych was satisfied with his life?
I have to admit that I've read the story several times, but last time was maybe 3 years ago, starting again to refresh my memory.
Well, I finished, and I don't now think there is much significance. That opening scene with the fellow lawyers/judges talking about Ivan's death struck me as echoing the Apostle's getting together after Christ's death. Peter seemed to recall Peter the Apostle. While I found several allusions to Christ (it almost felt that Ivan was going through the stations of the cross through the story) throughout, I can't put together a coherent argument for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Mental
Oh he wavers in his earlier works. His later works are almost exclusively spiritual. I would consider this work spiritual. The movememnt of the story is for Ivan to go from a selfish individual (and notice how almost everyone in the story is selfish) to spiritually enlightened. Here is that great ending:Quote:
Ok, back to why did you feel that there was a link to peter, and does it matter? Why does the name peter associated with Christ matter? Tolstoy was deeply spritual, but he wavers between his faith and his spirituality (see War & Peace)
.Quote:
And suddenly it grew clear to him that what had been oppressing him and would not leave his was all dropping away at once from two sides, from ten sides, and from all sides. He was sorry for them, he must act so as not to hurt them: release them and free himself from these sufferings. "How good and how simple!" he thought. "And the pain?" he asked himself. "What has become of it? Where are you, pain?"
He turned his attention to it.
"Yes, here it is. Well, what of it? Let the pain be."
"And death...where is it?"
He sought his former accustomed fear of death and did not find it. "Where is it? What death?" There was no fear because there was no death.
In place of death there was light.
"So that's what it is!" he suddenly exclaimed aloud. "What joy!"
To him all this happened in a single instant, and the meaning of that instant did not change. For those present his agony continued for another two hours. Something rattled in his throat, his emaciated body twitched, then the gasping and rattle became less and less frequent.
"It is finished!" said someone near him.
He heard these words and repeated them in his soul.
"Death is finished," he said to himself. "It is no more!"
He drew in a breath, stopped in the midst of a sigh, stretched out, and died
I would have given my right arm to have written that. Marvelous! I stand in awe.
I think I disagree here, although I agree in the sense that I think the older Tolstoy believes that life is a preparation for death.Quote:
Personally, I believe that what Tolstoy is trying to convey is more about life than death.
No. Selfishness is never satisfied. It leads to more selfishness.Quote:
Do you think ivan illych was satisfied with his life?
i just checked it out from the library today. i'm about 16 pages into it already, so i'm hoping to have it done in another day or two, depending on my schedule. so far, so good.
i finished it yesterday. there were several spots that i quoted in it but i won't type them all out on here. overall, i liked it. i think it's a good reminder that pleasure and pursuits are ok, even good, as long as they don't define you and you keep an eye on what's important. (imo, relationships in a very broad sense are most important.) this is the first time i've read any tolstoy and i enjoyed it very much.
it was sad that he made home life hard on his family for the sake of his upper-class image and pursuits. in the end not one of the people closest to him really gave much thought about him and i think it's because he didn't give much thought to them for most of his life.
towards the end of his life, i found it interesting how tolstoy wrote about the fact that every time ilyich thought that maybe his lifestyle caused difficulty in his life, he would convince himself that it wasn't a problem. at one point tolstoy wrote something about the fact that ilyich not seeing a problem with his lifestyle was the one thing that held him back from realizing that he had wasted his life.
kind of tragic, kind of a good lesson. well-written, imo.
Roger - You don't have to type it out to quote it. Tolstoy is an author included on lit net authors and this is one of the works included on the web site. (The translation might be different from what you just read, though.) If you go to the authors section and find this work, you can copy and paste into your post. I will say that to copy and paste here has become difficult. It used to be much easieer. I don't know why it's changed. But it's not impossible. I copied and pasted in my post above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogers_68
You might want to also vote in the poll at the top of this page as to how you found the book.
hey virgil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
thanks for the info about copying/pasting. i was referring mainly to the fact that i didn't want to create an enormous post for others to have to sort through. :)
i tried to vote but there was a line underneath the results stating that i can't vote. ??? if i could figure out how, i would.
thanks.
Oh, you might need a min of 50 posts here to be allowed to vote.
Virgil could you be more specific about why you're having difficulty c/p'ing?
Oh and Rogers yes you need 50+ posts to vote in book club polls.. here's our online copy of The Death of Ivan Ilych etext :)
http://www.online-literature.com/tol...of-ivan-ilych/
.
thank you, ma'am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Ivan Illych is selfish man. His selfishness leads him to his mortality. However, it leads him to know what the meaning of life and the meaning of death as well. I believe that nobody can die without knowing the definition of death. Ivan knows nothing about life. He is selfish, he don't care about his family. He cares only for the society. His knowledges of life is scanty, so the death.
Ivan, later, in the deathbed, he knows the meaning of life but it is already late. he knows the meaning of death after ignoring it as if it is a beast. I say if you know the life well, you know death well and how to deal with it. Ivan, when he fells in isolation, he talks to himself. I should say he talks to GOD. As if God is there with him in that very room talking to Ivan. God convinces Ivan that he must accepts death just like he accepts his life. Ivan, accepts death. But the main point I'm saying here is Ivan finds God, could that be possible that we might see God in the last moment we close our eyes forever?
I finished the story yesterday and if only I am eligible to vote in the poll, I would have given it a whopping perfect score.
I was in awe as to how Tolstoy wrote about death; in the way he grasped the meaning of death, without dying himself.
I expected the story to revolve around life after Ivan's death. But no, we were lead back in time. This certain style, allows us a clearer perception of "life" in general.
Ivan lead a miserable life, despite his success. He lived just as the society expected him to be, and not because of what he really wanted deep inside; in the end, he contemplated his life as improper--- a story of deception and lies. Yet, I could not take into practicality this very moral of the story. Ivan is not much different from you and me. I mean, all of us live in a society of expectations and standards. I just don't know how I could bring out an impetus of doing the things I want, without taking into consideration society's dictates. I am interested on what I would be thinking in the moments of my death, I hope I would be given the chance to contemplate on my life, just as Ivan had. That at least in my last moments, I would be able to answer some troubling questions before me now.
Life is sweet, much more is death. It's the cherry on top of your vodka, just as it is the icing on your cake. Death caps life and gives it its enduring aftertaste. As one dies here, the world in the here and now continues to revolve, one life wiser.
Ok, I read this book a bit ago but absolutely loved it. My interpretation of Peter Ivanovich is that he does really represent St. Peter. I read this book a bit ago, and don't have it near me, so I will try and explain my position: when Peter is conversing with Ivan's widow during the funeral, there is great attention paid to the springs of the cushion. Now, I interpreted this initially as Peter's attempts to hold back his true emotions for Ivan and his disgust with the people at the funeral (I forget the people's names, but the guys who want to get together to play cards, and Ivan's widow who cares only for more money). But, looking at the scene in a biblical sense, I interpreted it to be a parallel to St. Peter's alleged denial of knowing Jesus, which he supposedly did three times. If you count the number of times the springs are restrained and oppressed, they are also three. Now, this doesn't sound like much, but there is also a good deal of other religious points (something along the lines of the people in the casket room initially which I felt referred to Jesus' followers entering his supposed casket spot) as well as Ivan's last lines "it is no more" which were supposedly Jesus' last words.
I also interpreted the book to be showing Tolstoy's political disgust with the aristocracy, and his proponent towards communism, as he so clearly idealizes the common folk in the book. I hope this helps, I would be glad to talk more about it.
Damn you mahhag, now I have to read it again. Good points, and I agree with you on them. I always thought that there is a simple truth to this story, and the fact that Ivan was a judge to me was very significant.
I wanted to make a few comments on this short novella, as it is one of Tolstoy's works I like for its form, even if I disagree almost entirely with the great man's plebian idealism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I agree that the opening chapter with Peter Ivanovich may bring to mind Peter's denial of being first among the apostles of Christ, but I do not read too much further into it other than it is meant to be a heightened irony. What is Peter in the process of denying? Not that he knew Ivan, or is nearly exactly the same as Ivan Ilych. No.
Peter denies that his own self-interest comes first, that is evident from the opening paragraphs. Then he puts on a front about how aggrieved he actually is over the loss of his presumably grander colleague, then he denies fear, or possibly terror, that Ivan Ilych's fate might one day be his own, and he denies that what he really wants to do is go play bridge with Schwartz. Peter in fact wants to be Schwartz. Cool and collected and urbane to outward appearances.
This is a nearly comedic contrast to the high drama of an Apostle displaying a very human failing of self-interest in order not to be crucified himself.
The 12 chapter division has a stronger connection to Vespers I believe, as well as the movement of time, which is nearly the same in the orthodox church as it is within Roman Catholicism.
Other than that, the only thing that distinguishes Ivan Ilych in the Russian bourgeois is a happy median between being a dry pedagogue such as his elder brother, and a rake like his younger. Rather faint praise for a privileged caste.
Gerasim is representative of Tolstoy's peasant idealism, a conceptual theme he returns to more fully in Anna Karenina, but in this novella it works, as Gerasim is not afraid to see things as they are, accept them, and provide compassion through a simple understanding of the truth, which Ivan denies to his wife during her child-bearing years.
What Tolstoy doesn't actually do, however, is suggest what Ivan Ilych's true path might have been. If death is slowly stripping away bourgeois pretensions, nothing comes along to replace them. Only the vaguest suggestion of the possible: a true union in marriage, an effort to love and understand his son, a life that might have been more realized in honesty--if he had listened to his *disgust* in law school perhaps.
Maybe I will have more to offer later.
Very good points Jozy. I agree with everything you say. I take it you're currently reading the novella.
Yes, I have days when I have exasperated arguments with Tolstoy's narratives, and maybe I am being a little too hard on the grand man of letters, and remembered I liked Ivan Ilych, wanted a refresher, and dug up the discussion, because I am savvy with post software and know what I'm doing. :alien: :alien: :alien: :alien: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I will probably toss in more loose change later.
Thank you so very much for this. It was poignant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayes