Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits

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10-16-2006, 03:54 PM
hitchhiker

Are humans special or are we nothing more the mere rabbits

I wonder if man is something special in this world or are we just merely as special as rabbits or any other animal for that. What I am saying, is man special in the way are we able to truely concieve the meaning of life or are we just ignorant for thinking that we can. The rabbit I am talking about is the simpale creature that goes through life wanting nothing more then to reporduce and just go through life eating and having sex eating and having sex. No questions about life no thoughts or evening careing to think about itor better yet they know that they have no ablilty to understand the conseption of life so why insult who ever started it by thinking they can. So what are we, are we special by haveing the ability to undestand life or are we stupid for even thinking we can are we jsut as important as rabbits.
10-16-2006, 04:15 PM
Virgil

Well the last time I checked I was typing on a computer using an alphabet and a coherent language, sitting on a cushion chair, inside a building with walls and doors and windows, and outside were cars driving by and airplanes flying over head. Other than man, what animal can create such things? I've heard this argument that man is just another animal. The real human animals (jackasses really) are those that believe such an argument.
10-16-2006, 04:58 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

I've heard this argument that man is just another animal. The real human animals (jackasses really) are those that believe such an argument.

I don't see why the two positions are mutually contradictory. Humans are unique animals, but we're certainly animals.

To answer the original question, our grasp on the meaning of life may not be perfect, but we're certainly well ahead of rabbits in that respect (despite the preocupation both species have with food and sex).
10-16-2006, 06:18 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

I don't see why the two positions are mutually contradictory. Humans are unique animals, but we're certainly animals.

To answer the original question, our grasp on the meaning of life may not be perfect, but we're certainly well ahead of rabbits in that respect (despite the preocupation both species have with food and sex).

Well obviously any living thing the way we have catagorized it is either a plant or an animal. But the difference between our closest seeming animal is so far and away distant that I maintain we are our own catagory. It is not even close. I maintain that we have artificially catagorized in this dual mode. And so it seems that way. The next time I see a chimp not just use a computer, but design it, make the components, and put it together so it works, then I'll concede the point.

As to your flawed logic ("I don't see why the two positions are mutually contradictory"), humans are also made of carbon, but we're not rocks. Or do you think we are?
10-16-2006, 06:38 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

As to your flawed logic ("I don't see why the two positions are mutually contradictory"), humans are also made of carbon, but we're not rocks. Or do you think we are?

Quote:

an‧i‧mal /ˈænəməl/
–noun
1. any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.

Quote:

rock1 /rɒk/
–noun
1. a large mass of stone forming a hill, cliff, promontory, or the like.
2. Geology.
a. mineral matter of variable composition, consolidated or unconsolidated, assembled in masses or considerable quantities in nature, as by the action of heat or water.

If your definition of 'rock' is 'anything made even partly of carbon', then yes, human beings are rocks. The point is that any definition of the word 'animal' that includes apes and dolfins and insects and iguanas and parrots but not humans is a bizzare one.
10-16-2006, 09:52 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

If your definition of 'rock' is 'anything made even partly of carbon', then yes, human beings are rocks. The point is that any definition of the word 'animal' that includes apes and dolfins and insects and iguanas and parrots but not humans is a bizzare one.

Yes, see. It's all in how you lay down the definitions.

Sorry if I got a little petulant Joe. This is a little bit of a sore subject for me. Perhaps I'm a throw back to the Renaissance, but whether through God or by chance, I believe that man is the pinnicle of earthly creations.

The gap between man and any other living thing is so immense that to lump them together is silly to me.
10-16-2006, 10:15 PM
Nightmare9870

It doesn't matter if we understand/think we understand the meaning of life, what makes humans special is the fact that we have the ability to question the meaning of life in the first place. Last I checked, the rabbit didn't question its existance or wonder why it was put here.
10-16-2006, 11:23 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Sorry if I got a little petulant Joe. This is a little bit of a sore subject for me. Perhaps I'm a throw back to the Renaissance, but whether through God or by chance, I believe that man is the pinnicle of earthly creations.

The gap between man and any other living thing is so immense that to lump them together is silly to me.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions (and I've heard crazier ones).

Consider this, if you will: a tapeworm and a dolphin surely have less in common than a monkey and a person, but I don't think anybody would hesitate to call both dolphins and tapeworms animals.
10-17-2006, 02:37 AM
Invictus

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitchhiker

So what are we, are we special by haveing the ability to undestand life or are we stupid for even thinking we can are we jsut as important as rabbits.

Of course we are special. Unless I've forgotten the meaning of the word. However, it is clear that we do not ‘understand’ life, as far as I am concerned.

The fact that we can even question makes us ‘special.’

The issue of ‘importance’ is a wholly different topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions (and I've heard crazier ones).

Consider this, if you will: a tapeworm and a dolphin surely have less in common than a monkey and a person, but I don't think anybody would hesitate to call both dolphins and tapeworms animals.

It seems clear that it is possible that the human brain, its consciousness, separates the human from the animal.

“Surely”? Why? I believe you are speaking genetically. Are we thus limited in responsive form?

The mind is what separates us so dramatically, rather than anything genetic.

P.S. Isn't this a philosophical discussion?
10-17-2006, 09:18 AM
hitchhiker

Maybe it is that the rabbit knows by instinct that there is no true way to understan life and it is just insulting to the creater (if that is what it is) to even try to concieve the idea and this is not on are we the same as rabbits here on the Earth becuase I am not a idiot that thinks that becuase it is obvuise that we are greater then them but through the eyes what created us(although it could be nothing at all and this whole discusion is futile) we are equal even as we might have computers and segways and the brain to process new ideas of goverment but we still live on this Earth and **** like animals and have the instict just like a ape, dog, or yeah even a rabbit and the other point is what gives us the right to think we can pounder about our existence becuase I am sure it is far more then we can comprehend. or it may be as simple as a cell changing to two then to two then to four,ext.
10-17-2006, 09:52 AM
Kurtz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well the last time I checked I was typing on a computer using an alphabet and a coherent language, sitting on a cushion chair, inside a building with walls and doors and windows, and outside were cars driving by and airplanes flying over head. Other than man, what animal can create such things? I've heard this argument that man is just another animal. The real human animals (jackasses really) are those that believe such an argument.

Aside from the obvious logical fallacies, there is no sound argument whatsoever other than the personal inability to research scientific facts, evolutionary trends, genetic information and many of the other types of data that answer the question asked in the thread. I can only hope that the ignorance that is presented by the refusal to educate the mass public with facts instead of personal opinions and "divine" ignorance can be curbed and redirected in a scientific and logical direction. I also point out the innate superior humanity complex that is used in the last line of the post. It is a classic example of a basic logical fallacy and should not even be considered as an intelligent attempt at an argument. Moreover, I will be more than happy to entertain any of the authors ideas as to why he/she thinks that humans deserve to be put upon a pedestal when being compared to other animals (as long as they are intelligent and not based on the inability for the person to see a different lateral perspective). So please tell us your reasons for being led to believe that man is the pinnacle of earthly creation.
10-17-2006, 10:04 AM
Bluebiird

Humans are nothing special at all. We search for the meaning of life, and think we know it. Here's what the meaning of life is. Sex, reproduction, passing on our genes. That's why we exits. That's why anything exist. We struggle to preserve ourselves, but for what? We're all going to die in the end. Humanity will die eventually, given enough time. Our only goal is to survive.
So, knowing this, we are no different to the simple rabbit, or the rat or any other animal.
The rabit has simple problems, which it can't control. It can't decide what predators will want to eat it. It can't decide to get run over by a car. Those things just happen, beyond the rabits control.
We think that we have more problems than they do, but those problems are of our own creation. We created knives and weapons, now we kill each other with them. We created complex jobs and roles and now we strive to get out of them or climb higher.
Humanity must be the laughing stock of the natural world. because we struggle to understand questions like what is the meaning of life, when they already know it. Without a doubt, humans are the dumbest creatures in existance, but they think they are the smartest.
10-17-2006, 10:33 AM
Kurtz

"Humans are nothing special at all. We search for the meaning of life, and think we know it. Here's what the meaning of life is. Sex, reproduction, passing on our genes. That's why we exits. That's why anything exist. We struggle to preserve ourselves."

I agree with this view. Personally, I enjoy living in a world that has no "meaning". The absence of any true purpose is what makes anything possible.
10-17-2006, 12:08 PM
Turk

Humans are not special, i'm special. :lol: ;)
10-17-2006, 12:16 PM
Orionsbelt

How special

Certainly at the base level humans are animals. Some animals are strong, others are swift, others somewhat clever. It seems matters of degree. As far as we can discern chimps are aware of each other and themselves, use tools. I have witnessed what I beleive to be this kind of recognition in bears. As Virgil has pointed out however there is empirical evidence which suggests a distinguishing feature. Perhaps not unique but certainly further developed. Characterizing that feature is another matter. Is it manipulation of symbols? Speach? ... or friendship, love etc. Isn't this at the center of the cyclone however. The "spirit" denies the body and the "body" denies the spirit.... or so some are so convinced as to punish one or the other to amazing degrees. (I don't count myself among the proud). :rolleyes:
10-17-2006, 12:38 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invictus

It seems clear that it is possible that the human brain, its consciousness, separates the human from the animal.

Humans are animals, friend. There is nothing to separate us. Yes, we have much bigger and more powerfull brains than any other animal, but brain size is not what determines kingdom. One could just as easily say that elephants are clearly separated from animals becuase they have much bigger and more powerful noses than any other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invictus

“Surely”? Why? I believe you are speaking genetically. Are we thus limited in responsive form?

Take any category you like. Humans and great apes have much in common in terms of cognative ability, but dolphins and tapeworms have very little in common in that area. Dolphins and tapeworms are, in fact, evolving in oposite directions in that respect (it's to the tapeworm's advantage to be as simple as possible).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invictus

The mind is what separates us so dramatically, rather than anything genetic.

P.S. Isn't this a philosophical discussion?

The human mind (or at least the organ that makes it possible) is built by genetics, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. And yes it is a philosophical discussion. We're off topic. It happens.
10-17-2006, 01:06 PM
byquist

While animals often naturally care for each other (wasn't there a giant turtle who cared for a baby rhino during the Indonesian tidal wave?), humans additionally have that word "unselfishness" in the dictionary. When people grow in maturity they sometimes enter a phase of life where they direct attention to others, not their own wants and wishes. Charlotte Joko Beck touchs on this "otherness," who, assuming she's still alive, must be over 100. This quest towards yielding self in the service of others in no easy task. Chances are they went through a selfish hellishness on the route to getting there. Don't know that animals strive towards character-transformation, but pets certainly aim to please, are devoted, enjoy treats, and know how to be happy, often more than some of the crabby and complaining humans I've crossed paths with.
10-17-2006, 02:00 PM
Turk

If someone can say human is just an animal, then it means they don't believe in anything. Isn't it? No moral, no God because we are animal ha?

I don't believe human is just an animal. That's why i believe in moral, goodness and justice.

Animals can go to jungles.
10-17-2006, 03:36 PM
Bluebiird

Many humans have a distinct lack of morals these days. Actually, thet always have. Always fighting over this and that and stealing from each other
10-17-2006, 03:55 PM
lit_dork

I think one thing people do too often is try to separate themselves from nature, meaning that they think they are somehow very different or better than animals. It is true that one of humanity's greatest advantages is our higher brain power. We have a written language and we can communicate abstract ideas, like we're doing now. But is this so much better than a cat's ability to see well at night, or a dog's superior senses of hearing and smell? I personally think that humans are only another species of animal, even though we may be at the top of the chain. I mean, if we were so much greater, would we be destroying the world around us?
10-17-2006, 04:08 PM
optimisticnad

i have a problem with the title of this thread! why 'mere rabbits?'
10-17-2006, 04:17 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

If someone can say human is just an animal, then it means they don't believe in anything. Isn't it? No moral, no God because we are animal ha?

Oh, non sequiter. Where would philosophical discussion be without you?
10-17-2006, 04:19 PM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

Aside from the obvious logical fallacies, there is no sound argument whatsoever other than the personal inability to research scientific facts, evolutionary trends, genetic information and many of the other types of data that answer the question asked in the thread.

The question asked in the thread was faulty, quite obviously. The title of the thread, “Are humans special or are we nothing more than mere rabbits,” is, in my opinion, and easily answered question, and one that Virgil nailed perfectly.

Special:

- Distinguished by some unusual quality.

- Of a distinct or particular kind or character.
- Being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain.

Human beings are distinct and separate from rabbits, and this is a conclusion I am only to happy to defend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

I can only hope that the ignorance that is presented by the refusal to educate the mass public with facts instead of personal opinions and "divine" ignorance can be curbed and redirected in a scientific and logical direction.

What are you on about? Who said anything about the mass public? Or is Virgil the mass public spokesperson? What does your comment here have to do with the opening question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

I also point out the innate superior humanity complex that is used in the last line of the post.

I’m glad you're doing that, because that was my favourite part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

It is a classic example of a basic logical fallacy and should not even be considered as an intelligent attempt at an argument.

Well, ignoring the monstrous fact that Virgil may not have intended that statement to be an argumentative piece, what exactly is the fallacy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

Moreover, I will be more than happy to entertain any of the authors ideas as to why he/she thinks that humans deserve to be put upon a pedestal when being compared to other animals (as long as they are intelligent and not based on the inability for the person to see a different lateral perspective).

I suppose I’ll have to wait for Virgil on this one. Prithee, where did they say that mankind should be put on a pedestal? That could be where they will go with it, but as it stands didn’t Virgil simply differentiate between mankind and animals?

Fantastic job of anticipating Virgil's inabilities, by the way. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Kurtz”

So please tell us your reasons for being led to believe that man is the pinnacle of earthly creation.

More words you’re putting in somebody else’s mouth. I can tell you are an adept, critical reader, and not one to easily project your own thoughts onto another’s.
10-18-2006, 11:04 AM
Turk

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Oh, non sequiter. Where would philosophical discussion be without you?

My style is not philosophic (because i'm honest and i like to talk clear) but the thing i've told is completely philosophic (because i'm a philosopher from the inside) :brow:.

Seriously, as Dostoevski told: "If there's no God everything is permissible". If you say "Humans are just animals" then what's moral? What's law? What's goodness? Every good thing we believe is completely leans on idealistic stuff and God. And your point of view is not so different than Nazi point of view. If you think human is animal then you mean human life has no worth. And as we know from the history this kind of mentality just brought death, famine and vanish to the mankind.
10-18-2006, 11:42 AM
Scheherazade

I guess, to be able to answer this question, we need to agree on the definition of 'animal' (which is, I am well aware, something almost impossible).

American Heritage Dictionary states that an animal is 'A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.'. If we agree on this definition, then, no doubt, we are animals.

However, the same dictionary also adds that an animal can be 'An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.' So it seems like we are not the only ones who are struggling to decide whether we are animals or not.

I am not sure if human intelligence is enough to declare our species different from other animals. It is also possible to claim that humans were forced to develop intelligence and invent certain things because they were/are so inferior to most animals physically; they would have been extinct by now without those, maybe? Eg, we do not have a fur to protect us from cold so we had to find a way to warm ourselves (hence fire); we are no way good runners compared to many in the animal kingdom so we had to find ways to transport ourselves etc...

As for morality... I think it is good to keep in mind that morality is learned; not something we are born with (still so after thousands of years interestingly) and when left to our devices, we can turn into ugly 'creatures'. I am not an expert, however, I don't think there are many species in the animal kingdom which would kill, conspire, back-stab out of jealousy, greed or simple desire for obtaining pleasure. When 'animals' kill, it is mostly out of a survivial instinct, is it not?

Personaly speaking, by and large, I find 'animals' far more superior to humans, both physically and 'morally', and, there are some rare cases when I would much rather compared to an 'animal' than a 'humanbeing' and would consider it an honour.
10-18-2006, 12:19 PM
Orionsbelt

So what makes us a horse of a differnt color?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Seriously, as Dostoevski told: "If there's no God everything is permissible". If you say "Humans are just animals" then what's moral? What's law? What's goodness? Every good thing we believe is completely leans on idealistic stuff and God.

I don't think morality is dependant on God. God is mostly just a big club used to beat on those who have not developed some notion of compassion. Interestingly eternal rewards are the same one available here on earth only delayed until a time where you have demonstrated the ablity to go without them. SOmewhat like getting a loan! :lol: Certainly Confucius would not agree nor do I doubt anyone in ancient Greece that God is required for morality.

Having said that, you may have something here. The idea of morality, defined as the notion that I should check my biological satisfaction on my own in favor of an ideal, may be one of the clinchers. Mathematics may be another. In the sense that humans have the ability to formulate an ideal. Birds and beavers build. Apes use simple tools and have a social structure. Elephants grieve so some typical "human" behaviors are shared to some degree. No way to test that I can think of. Thanks for all the fish.:thumbs_up
10-18-2006, 12:45 PM
Taliesin

Humans have the power of abstract thinking. Other animals don't.
10-18-2006, 01:55 PM
Turk

Quote:

I don't think morality is dependant on God. God is mostly just a big club used to beat on those who have not developed some notion of compassion. Interestingly eternal rewards are the same one available here on earth only delayed until a time where you have demonstrated the ablity to go without them. SOmewhat like getting a loan! Certainly Confucius would not agree nor do I doubt anyone in ancient Greece that God is required for morality.

I believe it's certainly dependant to God. If you think opposite then i would like to know your thoughts about morality, goodness and law.

Quote:

American Heritage Dictionary states that an animal is 'A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.'. If we agree on this definition, then, no doubt, we are animals

This is over-simplisizying the ideas and things. Like Aristo logic. If i would say; "we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys" would it be sensible? You'r doing that right now. We have biological specialities so animals have too, so we are same. Is this logical?

Quote:

As for morality... I think it is good to keep in mind that morality is learned; not something we are born with (still so after thousands of years interestingly) and when left to our devices, we can turn into ugly 'creatures'. I am not an expert, however, I don't think there are many species in the animal kingdom which would kill, conspire, back-stab out of jealousy, greed or simple desire for obtaining pleasure. When 'animals' kill, it is mostly out of a survivial instinct, is it not?

You clash with urself here, you say we have greed, conspire, we kill, back-stab out of jealousy etc. SO WE HAVE RIGHT OF CHOOSE. But you forget saying we have free will too. An animal have to kill unconsicously. But a human doesn't have to kill, isn't have to be jealous or greedy. If you have strong moral and if you are a true believer it'll protect from this kind od manners. And i really don't understand how we can have stronger moral values if we accept "we are animal"?

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too. There's no good and no bad. So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

I wonder if since you say you believe we are animal, do you believe in evolution? If you believe it, can you say white race is supreme than black race?
10-18-2006, 02:31 PM
Virgil

Wow, this thread has taken off parabolically since I last checked.

I'm not sure I know where to start and I probably won't be able to respond to everyone.

I again I repeat, it depends on how you set up the definitions. You can look at man as being made up of predominantly of carbon and water and yet we are not classified as a rock or a puddle. I will concede that man shares many qualities with animals. But the distinction between man and it's closest similar animal is so vast that we are certainly separate from them. I know I go against the grain of common thinking. So be it. I'm not a common person. The last several hundred years have been an attack on the nobility and genious of man, and perhaps that's what insults me. Perhaps man is not the center of the universe, and perhaps he is. We have yet to find any life form that compares with man, in his ability to think, to create, to build, and to establish systems. I make my living designing and using my human ingenuity, I entertain myself by reading literature created by other men (not animals), and I pass my time by attempting to create myself. I know no other animal that can do any of that. You want to consider yourself an animal, I choose to see you as you truly are, a jackass.

To the person who thought he understood the ancient Greeks, Socrates was condemned and executed on charges he violated the morality established by the gods.

As to those who bring up evolution, it took the wolf, one of the most enduring and crafty of species, 48 million years from where it originally separated from its previos species, and around 13 million years to arrive at its current form. Man at it's origin is perhaps just two million years and homo sapiens, man in its current form, a few hundred thousand years. These are orders of magnitude different, not subtle differences. And when you consider what man has done in the last several thousand years, it is quite evident (mass cities, buildings, airplanes, governments, even go out into space and the moon) to anyone who is not a jackass that we are dealing with something different altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoutgrace

The question asked in the thread was faulty, quite obviously. The title of the thread, “Are humans special or are we nothing more than mere rabbits,” is, in my opinion, and easily answered question, and one that Virgil nailed perfectly.

Yes, that was the question and the implication imbedded in the question is that man is no more than a rabbit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurtz

Aside from the obvious logical fallacies, there is no sound argument whatsoever other than the personal inability to research scientific facts, evolutionary trends, genetic information and many of the other types of data that answer the question asked in the thread.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I maintain your reasoning is illogical by its refusal to see the world in front of your eyes. Do you live in a house with walls and paint or do you live in a rat hole? Do you cook your dinner or do tear at it with mouth? Open your eyes. Education is more than some dumb professor's lectures.

I proudly put man on a pedestal.
10-18-2006, 02:45 PM
miss tenderness

Why rabbit?why not ape! Though I think it's inappropriate to compare human,who eats and have sex like animals but also they think,create,build,worship,discover ….etc ,to animals.
10-18-2006, 04:36 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Seriously, as Dostoevski told: "If there's no God everything is permissible". If you say "Humans are just animals" then what's moral? What's law? What's goodness?

What changed, exaclty? I'm not advocating any sort of brand new philosohy here, I'm stating a simple truth. Human beings are animals and are subject to the same laws of biology that all other animals are. If you want to throw away all your morals in light of that, ok, but I think I'll hang on to mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

Every good thing we believe is completely leans on idealistic stuff and God.

I hate to break this to you, but atheists are not exactly known for their amoral kill-crazy rampages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And your point of view is not so different than Nazi point of view.

It's not a real internet discussion until somebody compares me to Hitler and the Nazis, is it? I'm an anarchist, for crap's sake, I'm the opposite of a fascist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

If you think human is animal then you mean human life has no worth.

That's exactly the non sequiter I was refering to. I happen to quite like human life, actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And as we know from the history this kind of mentality just brought death, famine and vanish to the mankind.

Famine? I'm going to cause crops to fail by stating the obvious? What in the name of buttermilk pancakes are you talking about?
10-18-2006, 04:51 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

I believe it's certainly dependant to God. If you think opposite then i would like to know your thoughts about morality, goodness and law.

How about empathy as a basis for morality? How about reason? How about these guys: http://www.secularhumanism.org/? If you don't think atheistic morality is possible, you need to open your eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

This is over-simplisizying the ideas and things. Like Aristo logic. If i would say; "we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys" would it be sensible? You'r doing that right now. We have biological specialities so animals have too, so we are same. Is this logical?

The word 'monkey' doesn't mean 'a thing with two arms'. It means 'a small to medium size primate with a prehensile tail that typically lives in trees in tropical countries'. 'Monkey' is a word that describes a group of things that does not include humans. 'Animal' is a word that describes a group of things that does include humans. This is extremely easy to grasp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

And i really don't understand how we can have stronger moral values if we accept "we are animal"?

Apparently not, no. I personally think that if the only thing that keeps us in line is the promise of heaven and the threat of hell, we're a fairly sorry lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too. There's no good and no bad. So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

Some of us have found plenty of meaning in our lives without God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

I wonder if since you say you believe we are animal, do you believe in evolution? If you believe it, can you say white race is supreme than black race?

What? How do you figure? If species evolve (and they do, humans included) then black people are inherently inferior? Yes, ok, caucasians have one or two adaptations that give them an advantage when it comes to living in Scandinavia. There is no evolutionary evidence that would even remotely suggest that white people are inherently smart or better or more capable or whatever.

Sorry if it seem like I'm picking on you, Turk, but you're making me angry.
10-18-2006, 05:00 PM
cuppajoe_9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Perhaps man is not the center of the universe, and perhaps he is. We have yet to find any life form that compares with man, in his ability to think, to create, to build, and to establish systems. I make my living designing and using my human ingenuity, I entertain myself by reading literature created by other men (not animals), and I pass my time by attempting to create myself. I know no other animal that can do any of that. You want to consider yourself an animal, I choose to see you as you truly are, a jackass.

You know what? I agree that humans are pretty great. But there is no getting around the fact that we are vertibrates, animals, mammals and primates. We have built ourselves a pretty good (although far from perfect) society up from nothing and we should be very proud of that, but saying that this makes us somehow un-animal is false. It doesn't matter how many great works of literature or amazing sculptures or breathtaking temples we build, we will still be multicellular organisms of the kingdom Animalia.

Suggestion: maybe if you want to be taken seriously, you should not label everybody who disagrees with you a jackass. That, in itself, is a fairly jackassy thing to do.
10-18-2006, 05:24 PM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Turk”

An animal have to kill unconsicously.

Has anybody read the poem “Crow Tyrannosaurus”?
10-18-2006, 05:48 PM
Scheherazade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

This is over-simplisizying the ideas and things. Like Aristo logic. If i would say; "we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys" would it be sensible? You'r doing that right now. We have biological specialities so animals have too, so we are same. Is this logical?

That is not my definition but a definition taken from a respectable dictionary and I think to compare that definition to 'we have 2 arms and monkeys have two arms too then we are monkeys' is a much greater over simplification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turk

You clash with urself here, you say we have greed, conspire, we kill, back-stab out of jealousy etc. SO WE HAVE RIGHT OF CHOOSE. But you forget saying we have free will too. An animal have to kill unconsicously. But a human doesn't have to kill, isn't have to be jealous or greedy. If you have strong moral and if you are a true believer it'll protect from this kind od manners. And i really don't understand how we can have stronger moral values if we accept "we are animal"?

I think you have misunderstoof my point. I agree with you that humans have a choice and animals kill instinctively. However, despite having a choice, on many occasions, humans will opt for calculated, cold blooded murder, which, in my opinion, is much worse than 'animalistic' killing.

Quote:

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too. There's no good and no bad. So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

I am not sure how you reach to the conclusion that if there is no God, there is no meaning in life. If believing in the existing of a deity makes your life more meaningful to you, fair enough but please do not assume that everyone needs such a being to lead a life which is meaningful to them.

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I wonder if since you say you believe we are animal, do you believe in evolution? If you believe it, can you say white race is supreme than black race?

I do believe in evolution; I do believe that we will evolve further. However, I don't see how race comes into play here so I will not get into that argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

We have yet to find any life form that compares with man, in his ability to think, to create, to build, and to establish systems.

To this day, we are yet to find another planet similar to Earth in the space; however, does that mean that Eart is simply different planet or that Earth is not a planet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

I make my living designing and using my human ingenuity, I entertain myself by reading literature created by other men (not animals), and I pass my time by attempting to create myself. I know no other animal that can do any of that.

I am reminded of something someone told me once. Back in the university days, when I was young and cocky (as one often is), I was somewhat critical of a close friend because she opted for a short diploma course and got a job right after the higschool (not necessarily because she could not cope with the requirements of academic world or financially she could not). When I expressed my opinions to her, in the hope that I could encourage her to get a degree, she thought for a while and said, 'you know what, not all of us want to be doctors, lawyers or teachers... This world also needs secretaries and assisstants... and talented ones for that.' I think she was mature beyond her years when she said that. Similarly, this world needs all sort of species and just because we, as humanbeings, idealise certain activities or values(however 'good' they might be for us), it does not necessarily mean that those things are the pinnacle of every species' existence.
10-18-2006, 05:55 PM
Scheherazade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

You want to consider yourself an animal, I choose to see you as you truly are, a jackass.

Virgil> Please avoid name calling during discussions. Different views are not necessarily less worthy nor are their holders.
10-18-2006, 05:55 PM
ShoutGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

I am not sure if human intelligence is enough to declare our species different from other animals.

This is why this entire thread can be distilled into a game of semantics. As Taliesin put it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Taliesin”

Humans have the power of abstract thinking. Other animals don't.

Surely, this is a “difference.” It obviously makes us “special,” according to the dictionary definition provided above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

As for morality... I think it is good to keep in mind that morality is learned; not something we are born with (still so after thousands of years interestingly)

Of course morality is learned. Moral values need to be observed and then apprehended. The fact that humans need time to do this doesn’t speak to the nature of the values which are being explored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Scheherazade”

Personaly speaking, by and large, I find 'animals' far more superior to humans, both physically and 'morally', and, there are some rare cases when I would much rather compared to an 'animal' than a 'humanbeing' and would consider it an honour.

That may certainly be the case, though surely it helps to illustrate the differences between “humans” and “the rest of creation”? Being special doesn’t mean being better; being special means:

Special:

- Distinguished by some unusual quality.

- Of a distinct or particular kind or character.
- Being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain.

This could attribute itself to both “good” and “bad.” Dahmer was special. Jack the Ripper was special. Vlad the Impaler was very, very special. Humans are special because they’ve created nuclear weapons, guns with hollow points, machines like the “Rack”, symphonies, discriminations, cameras small enough to be safely inserted into a human artery, and meth.

Why have humans done these things? We have special attributes, characteristics, and abilities which distinguish us from the rest of the animals on this planet.

Whether this “speciality” specific to humans is by and large beneficial or not isn’t the main topic, though it certainly leads from that other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Turk”

At the end, i can clearly say if there's no God there's no meaning in this life too.

Agreed. cuppajoe_9, you can obviously find meaning, but I think we’re agreed that given atheism as true, it ultimately isn’t rational, correct?

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

There's no good and no bad.

Very much agreed.

“There aint no sin and there aint no virtue. There's just stuff people do.”

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Originally Posted by “Turk”

So racism, killing, thievery etc. shouldn't be crime.

Though not here. This is too large a leap – even if designating these things as crimes wouldn't be rational, it should still be done.

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

I again I repeat, it depends on how you set up the definitions.

Exactly. I think that what Invictus was getting at has to do with the definitions. Some have decided that the only one to use is the genetic. What if we differentiate “special” on the ability to reason, develop complicated systems based on ideals which only exist in thought?

Why not examine human beings and rabbits in as many contexts as possible and see if humans are “special”?

Quote:

Originally Posted by “Virgil”

I proudly put man on a pedestal.

Though I hesitate here. I find mankind's actions far too abhorrent and objectionable to praise it as a whole. For every impressive, healthy, liberating and progressive thing we've done or accomplished, we've done equally disgusting and terrible things. As Scheherazade said, “and when left to our devices, we can turn into ugly 'creatures'”.

Man is both great and ugly.

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Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I personally think that if the only thing that keeps us in line is the promise of heaven and the threat of hell, we're a fairly sorry lot.

Where, exactly, was this stated or implied? Other than your mind, of course. I can't find it in any of the posts on this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

But there is no getting around the fact that we are vertibrates, animals, mammals and primates.

Who is saying we aren’t? Isn’t the question, “Are human beings special or are we nothing more than mere rabbits,” rather than, “Do human beings reside in the human created system of classification attributed to life on earth?”

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

It doesn't matter how many great works of literature or amazing sculptures or breathtaking temples we build, we will still be multicellular organisms of the kingdom Animalia.

Of course we are, and of course we are infinitely different than the rest of the organisms represented there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

I happen to quite like human life, actually.

You can like it to your hearts content. But in the end, as Turk pointed out, it has no more worth than a tapeworms or a dolphins, does it? After all,

Quote:

Originally Posted by “cuppajoe_9”

Humans are animals, friend. There is nothing to separate us.
10-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Scheherazade

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

That may certainly be the case, though surely it helps to illustrate the differences between “humans” and “the rest of creation”?

I agree with you. We are different from other species just like fish is different from bugs and I don't think that being different means being superior. My comment was in reply to the comments that humanbeings should be put on a pedestal because they are different in their own way.

All creatures are different and special in their own ways. Fish can stay under the water and swim, birds fly, most 'animals' can navigate through their very complicated and developed senses, some can see in the dark; they hear and smell 'better' than us. They are, we are, all different and special in our own way. Some of the other animals lack and we have do not necessarily mean we are superior.

Just to clarify my own stand on this, I consider humans just another species native to planet Earth. Simply because we are different does not mean we are superior.
10-18-2006, 06:18 PM
Virgil

I guess it's all in one's mind. I choose to regard man's nobility.

No where did I say we were perfect. Man's inhumanity to man is another distinguishing feature that separates from animals. No creature can have the complexity of thought (even wrong thought) to establish the world and society as it exists.
10-18-2006, 06:23 PM
tiny explorer

go Virgil!!...i support you there.and i think none exceeds the existence of humans.considering the things that which we are unique from other creatures.

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