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In July, we reading The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky, who said:Quote:
The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.
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http://home.swipnet.se/~w-15266/gifcat/dostoevsky.gif
In July, we reading The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky, who said:Quote:
The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.
Book Club Procedures
Amazing! I will look forward to reading this thread!
And when will the discusion start?
I am looking forward to get my hands on it!!!
I bought the book yesterday, my first impression is that it is quite large and has small print. People - I'm still trying to finish Godot!!!
Yeh I'm having alot of trouble finishing books over the summer.Between a job,working out,and music it's like I don't have any time.Then whenever I do get the time my friend shows up.I didn't finish Lolita or Love in the Time of Cholera,but I can't bring myself to put down Brothers.It's just too good.
I've got both my copies, and *all* my notes from the class I took! Will I be tempted to read it again???????
i just bought it today and the version i bought is over 1000 pages long so..it might take a week or two but if its reallly really good which ive heard it is... then it should only take a week maybe less...but first i must finish 1984..which is starting off quite weird actually..this whole negative utopia ...well enough on that ..LOOKING FORWARD TO READING THE BROTHERS!!
Started it today, but i am tired. It will sap alot out of me...darn you Baz!!! :lol:
I am gonna get my copy from the liibrary as soon as possible. :)
It's my third time reading it. And I don't mind at all!
I have started reading it; however, it is going very slow for me.
Find it interesting that all the people who come to get the Elder's blessings are women. Why do you think? Women are more devoted believers? They are more gullible to believe in such? Men are too proud to seek help even from a man of God?
I've never quite thought about that. I suppose it's probably just a touch of realism - you know, old ladies likely to be the most devout and likely to make such a pilgrimage. I'm no expert on 19th century Russian life, but it's probably something Dostoevsky may have noticed. (He, as with Tolstoy, went on a pilgrimage to a monastery himself. Maybe that's something that he noticed when he did.) I really don't mean to be dismissive, but I don't think the fact that they're women is crucially important.
I would say however, that it's definitely one of my favorite chapters of the book. It's a vitally important early chapter that introduces many of the themes and topics that will be brought up more in-depth later in the novel. If, after finishing the novel, you were to go back and read this chapter again, it would completely open up and reveal so much about some of the major themes of the novel. So I'd advise everyone reading this chapter - "Women of Faith" - to read it very attentively (Not that you wouldn't anyway).
Interesting note about the "Women of Faith" chapter, for those of you who have a copy that doesn't include this note; one of the ladies comes and tells Father Zosima about her little son, Alexei, who was almost three-years-old and died. Just before beginning The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky's own three-year-old son Alexei died, prompting Dostoevsky to visit a monastery.
Going for 50 pages a day, should be finished in 3 weeks since my edition is approximately 768 pages. We do get 2 months to read this, right? It is over 750.
I've heard it said both that Dostoyevsky's sympathies are mainly with Alyosha - the regligious innocent - and that they're mainly with Ivan - the intellectual for whom religioius faith no longer makes sense, but who's obviously having trouble making sense of life without religious faith. I'm interested in the degree to which this can be answered by reference to the book alone and not FD's biography. As I remember it (I just finished it two weeks ago), there's a sentence somewhere around the middle that I think makes it clear that FD himself does not give credence to religious faith, despite the highly sympathetic light in which he depicts Alyosha and father Zosima. It almost seems as if he's saying that religion can work terribly well at tricking people into having equillibrium and behaving humanely, despite its intellectual unsustainability, and without it you're in trouble.
well Alyosha is called the hero of the novel.
Hi Superunknown,Quote:
Originally Posted by superunknown
Since we have 12 authors chosen for this year, we will read an author/a month, I am afraid. Those who are still reading can still post and continue to discuss the book after July as the discussion threads are always open.I agree with you partially but in the book, it is not only the old ladies who seek elders' help and guidance. Also, my question was a general one as well. Why is it that old ladies are the most devout, making such pilgrimages?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeK
Finding the whole 'the Church/State' discussion a little confusing along with ecclesiastical courts debate. Any historic relevance?
Yeah, but that's not necessarily a simple endorsement of everything he says, does and believes. It might be that Dostoyevsky is saying you can only be a hero with a certain inability to face facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
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Originally Posted by blp
Is there authorial intent? Is it relevant when criticizing the text?
If we disregard the fact that Dostoevsky was a Christian, then I suppose it is just the narrator who becomes 'sympathetic' or 'unsympathetic'.
This is one of the three parts of this book that can be very, very confusing; along with The Grand Inquisitor chapter and The Devil chapter. I think that there are two main things to keep in mind about the church/state/ecclesiastical courts discussion that might untangle things a little bit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
One: Beware of irony on the part of Ivan when discussing his article (and maybe more importantly...irony on the part of Dostoevsky as regards Ivan in this discussion).
Two: What sets up many of the ideas that will be in contention later in the novel are not only Ivan's thoughts, but just as importantly, Zosima's penetrating responses (about Ivan).
FD gives no credence to religious faith. Religious faith is the dogmatic faith, the mechanical faith, which is embodied in the character of Ivan. In this sense, Ivan is so deeply, even radically, religious. Alyosha is different. Alyosha's faith surpasses religiosity. Unlike Ivan and Father Zossima, he goes out of the monastery and the monastic. (Really, Ivan lives in a "monastery"). Alyosha is overcome not by the Christianity's Christ, but by the Spirit of Christ himself, which is absurd, brutal and extreme in its acts of Love, and Alyosha owes Dmitri much for this gift.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
When does it say Alyosha lacks an ability to see facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallantry
Exactly right, Gallantry. Dostoevsky goes out of his way to call Alyosha a "realist" and describe him as someone who can "face facts". He has many digressions in the book about this (realism vs. idealism; miracles producing faith vs. faith producing miracles, etc...).
It should be noted that in mid-late nineteenth-century Russia "realist" was a charged word. Many commentators that I've read have pointed out that the prevailing style was for writers to call those sympathetic with their ideas "realists". To be a "realist" meant to be right. Dostoevsky adhered to the contemporary style. He went out of his way to make Alyosha a "realist" and not a "dreamer". This is what much of Book 7 is about.
I have asked for my copy from the library, I hope to get it by today evening. And seeing the volume of the book (some 1000 pages) I am not sure when would I be able to finish it, but I hope this time bound reading help increase my speed...
i have started reading it im about 350 pages through..just started two days ago so it is raining today so hopefully i can get to may 500-600..it might increase your speed madhuri but do not read so fast so that you miss things..you do not want to miss anything about this book :nod: :D
Oh yes, I dont want to miss anything, but going by the fact that I am slow reader I was thinking if I would be able to finish it on time. I hope I do, without missing anything. Time bound reading might help, as otherwise I have this tendency to think I have all the time to read and may not finish it at all..he he he :DQuote:
Originally Posted by literaturerocks
I didnt find the book in the library, I think i'll have to visit the bookstore.
It is available for reading on the site if you wish :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Madhuri
http://www.online-literature.com/dos...ers_karamazov/
Hey thanks, Logos. I didnt know that books were also available online for reading.
Well there are hundreds of authors and thousands of stories, novels, and poems to be read here on this site, just check out the Author Index, click on a name and you will see what is available of theirs to be read :)
http://www.online-literature.com/author_index.php
"Welcome to The Literature Network. We offer searchable online literature for the student, educator, or enthusiast. To find the work you're looking for start by looking through the author index. We currently have over 1200 full books and over 2000 short stories and poems by over 250 authors. Our quotations database has over 8500 quotes."
Well, 1200 books, 2000 short stories and 8500 quotes, that is quite a lot to read. I think I need to browse more forums. Thanks once again Logos, I would definitely look up the author index.
Rather intrigued by Alyosha's encounter with children.
I cannot help but think that the story line has the makings of a good soap opera... We have a central 'evil' character with a dark past and numerous affrairs and children (and he is rich!). His children are still trying to come to terms with certain issues and cannot stay away from their father for one reason or another. And to make things even more complicated, there are love triangles and tangles all over the place.
*dodges the rotten tomatoes flying in her direction*
:D
thank goodness this was written so long ago and so well that no one is gonna be foolish enough to make a tv show out of it.
However well written it is, there is still too much melodrama going on for my linking, I am afraid. I mean leeks are leeks no matter how finely they are cooked and I ain't gonna like/eat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallantry
Does anyone else feel like hitting Katerina on the head with the very copy of TBK they are reading? I further feel like shaking her after the hit until she came to her senses: 'I will wait for him all my life!?!??!!'
Also what do you about Snergiyov's refusal to take the money from Alyosha? Would you accept it if you were in his position or act in a similar manner?
There's certainly a lot going on in this novel (murder, love triangles, etc...), and it will or will not suit various tastes, but it can hardly be called melodrama. (Melodrama usually taken to mean a situation where action or plot is more important than characterization. 'Empty' action in other words.) This story is really just the opposite. In TBK, every aspect of the plot serves another purpose of Dostoevsky, and usually provides support for a rather penetrating (I think) psychological, religious, cultural, or philosophical insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Book 4, for example, where Snegiryov tears up the money as you mentioned; This book provides some amazing insight by linking many various characters together through the theme of the book's heading ("Strains" or "Lacerations" - depending on the translation). How and why are Snegiryov, Katerina, Ivan, Father Ferapont, and the boys acting similarly throughout Book 4? How is Snegiryov's crumpling of the money similar to Katerina's proclomations about following Dmitri, as you also quoted above?
yes i feel like hitting her and my copy is rather thick :) but i really found books V and VI to be absolutely amazing. though i am on book IX now those two books really stand out to me. dostoevsky was genious. a chapter that was particularly hard to understand but once i read through it pretty slowly it was really good. also scher i think that (it might have even said it in the book i dont remember) but ilyusha's father proudly throws the money down and the reason for that is that if he had accepted the money (even though he needed it badly) he feels he would have been dishonered. and he feels if this were to happen his son ,ilyusha, would never be able to admire or respect him. also in book four does anyone else notice how fyodor karamazov is so dishonest that he feels that everyone else around him is skeptical and dishonest as well? i think this is an important point that dostoevsky was trying to make as her forshawdowed this when zosima was speaking about not telling lies and how it will make you think that others around you are dishonest as well.what are your opinions?
earlier this summer I was reading this and meeting with some friends over lunch weekly to discuss the book. They ended up not finishing it due to summer classes and a mission trip to Honduras but I went ahead and finished it. One of the things that we did get to discuss before we quit meeting to discuss the book was the scene your reffering to where zossima says that a man that lies to himself begins to deceive himself. I would agree, its a fair guess to say that it is foreshadowing or at least supporting the development of fyodor's character.
I also think Dostoevsky's works are either comic or melodramatic. It might be the epileptic force working on the nerves, or the debts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Henry James described Dostoevsky’s works as “baggy monsters” and “fluid puddings”, with a profound “lack of composition” and a “defiance of economy and architecture.
Joseph Conrad called The Brothers Karamazov “... an impossible lump of valuable matter. It’s terrifically bad and impressive and exasperating. Moreover, I don’t know what Dostoevsky stands for or reveals, but I do know that he is too Russian for me. It sounds like some fierce mouthings of prehistoric ages.” (from www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/quotations.html)
But it's alright. Definitely alright.
I loved this book when I first read it 20 years ago land look forward for the chance to read it again. Just found this forum today so greetings to you all. I suppose the question is who is Dostoevsky really sympathetic to? Is it Aloysha and Father Zosima or was that a sop to the censors. 120 years later it's much easier to be sympathetic to Ivan who encapsulates all the uncertainties of the twentieth century and like Milton's Devil has the best arguments I will enjoy reading the book again to see if my opinions have changed.
just finished yesterday and it was quite impressive. i really liked the book and look forward to discussing it. i might even have to put it on my books to read again list :nod: :D