Printable View
Lately, there have been a number of books published on the topic of fighting depression that claim to be based in science. They are absolutely worthless. Every time I have read even a page of one I have wanted to throw up or cry or both. Anybody else who is genuinely depressed should stay away from those things. Just a heads up.
What science is it? Is it psychology? I heard that Science is a solution to problems of humanity. What makes you want to throw up or cry or both then?
What kind of literature do you think is right for me if I want to be happy? I am a person who get easily depressed.
PS:
off-topic: I always wonder whether "What kind of literature do you think is right for me if I want to be happy? " is grammatically natural or...?
The sentence is gramtically correct, but I am in no position to answer it. I have yet to read a book that made me happier. The closest I have come is a book that gets my mind off things (any good book).
The science is usually statistics or neurology. As in: "People with strong religious beliefs are, on average, happier than those without" (I'm an atheist. Oops.), or "Your brain is wired so that you think your life is better than it actually is" (I'm sure that caused more suicides than it prevented).Good science, maybe, anything that you will find in those books, no.Quote:
I heard that Science is a solution to problems of humanity.
Some things in these books may help someone who is a bit down, but if you're actually depressed it's no good at all.
Scientifically, the body experiences happiness through a chemical called dopamine. When dopamine is released, you feel happier. Fairly interesting chemical process, and this has been scientifically proven. Not long ago, a Buddhist monk who specialized in 'happiness' meditation (and happened to have some impressive scientific degrees) worked with a lab to figure out exactly how dopamine worked. The whole affair was quite a success, so I understand.
Does that feel better?
Have you run into the long book, "The Noonday Demon" by Andrew Solomon? It makes no claim to science, and probably no claim to anything, except for perhaps a desire to garner sympathy and understanding by writing a very articulate and "no holds barred" book. It's not for the squeamish, is more of a memoir, but it also provides his extensive research and autobiographic sum-up of the essence of the condition you mention. Very honest and articulate, in parts you could say passionate, and is not clinical or detatched; it's a people-oriented book.
I have not read that book, but I'll put it on my list.
Personally, I have never thought necessarily, that happiness seems in complete opposition to depression. Of course, depression seems a rather miserable feeling, as everyone has felt, I have no doubt, to some degree. Some would say, however, happiness consists partially of wisdom, and others would say happiness consists partially of love (perhaps both seem correct).
An individual in depression, I would like to think, seems in a state of flux, indecision, and contemplation, often driven further by stress, interpersonal relationships, intrapersonal relationships, and the like. With everyone in a constant state of flux, however, neither complete depression nor complete happiness seems attainable to its full definition (as Aristotle would say in Nicomachean Ethics). Knowing this, I feel there seem far more dimensions, beyond human knowledge, regarding human emotion - far greater than that of imagination and any other human faculty.
In my opinion, some of those books may give positive motivation and good insight, but, in some people, an element of false, desolate hope. Recognizing a problem seems the most important step part in solving it, and a book will seldom solve it for you, but more a reflection on a book along with a reflection on one's self.
I couldn't agree more. These books are just useles rubbish written by people who think they have the right answer for life. There is a market for this because of all the naive people that actually believe in it. These "authors" give them what they want. False Hope.Quote:
Lately, there have been a number of books published on the topic of fighting depression that claim to be based in science. They are absolutely worthless.
Which books specifically are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
Wittgenstein said that the purpose of therapy was not to help the subject feel better or happier, but to help them to think. I have a lot of experience of therapy and I'd agree - and add that a bi-product of this is to make one happier.
The books you're talking about, cuppajoe, sound like they're trying to shortcut the process. There is no shortcutting and that's the point. A quick fix to depression is an unthinking one. A pat explanation that your brain is not wired for happiness, alternatively, is a way of shutting down thought. You're quite right to find no succour in either of these. My experience of 'depression' - a word I'm a little suspicious of in itself as too simplistic - is that it's a network of knots that can be untied through thought and discussion and that each of those knots is kept in place, precisely, by the idea that it cannot be thought or talked about freely. The act of thinking these things through is difficult, but it's the most intellectually honest you can take and is, finally, invigorating. If you can find a good analyst - one who won't fob you off with simplistic explanations or medication - the process can be as interesting and engrossing as any book, with the added bonus that it can save your life.
I totally agree they are no help at allQuote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
The Science of Happiness is the name of such a book.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathycf
Thank you for your post, and your advice. Unfortunately, I doubt if I would be comfortable talking about my depression to anyone I wasn't very good friends with. In fact, aside from in these forums, where I am annonymous, I have mentioned it only twice in my life, and one of those times I was exteremely drunk. I absolutely refuse to take medication for it, on the grounds that if I just want my emotions deadened I am perfectly capable of drinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
(Just in case this post is worrying anybody: I am not an alcoholic, and never drink when I am feeling depressed.)
Since you won't see a therapist, I'm going to act like one - briefly: why wouldn't you feel comfortable talking about your depression to a stranger - one whom you knew was bound by a professional code of confidentiality? And is remaining 'comfortable' really such a great objective if it means you have to be unhappy?Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
I didn't say I won't, I said I'm not particularly enthralled with the idea. I would prefer to talk it over with one of my friends. And I have. And it helped. When that stops helping, then I'll see a therapist.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
Ok, well, thanks. It wasn't crystal clear( to me, but I guess I am stupid) that you were referring to one specific book because you wrote that there were a number of them...Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
sorry to have bothered you with my foolish question.
No problem, it was worded poorly.
Perhaps I saw sarcasm in your post when none was intended.
*edit* if that was the case, then I apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
I do believe that people with strong religioun are happier than the other ones because they always believe that there is more in life , this strong belief in god gives inner feeling of relief and happiness , you feel that you are not alone ,I know that you are an athiest but I'm not, and I do feel better when I pray , I feel that theres someone who's watching over me , to help me and I think that somehow makes me feel better , but I'm not a very religious person so maybe thats why I'm not totally happy or maybe its not all about religioun maybe its also about something else ,life for example , things like money and success can make you feel happy but not for along time , and some people think its love what makes you happy but I think that the problem in our brains thats why children and fools are the happiest people at all !
and about these books I agree with you ,maybe it helps a little bit but not too much .
Perhaps it is a combination of things, (religion, success, family, love...) that make people happy. I think people are too complex to say the source of happiness is just one thing.
Depression in and of itself has been considered by most physicians as not only a"mental" disorder, but a physiological condition. No one treatment for various mental illnesses can work magic for everyone, but there are things that people can do to help themselves. As someone who has depression, anxiety and PTSD, I know for myself that attempting to be proactive and try to work at making myself feel better helps me. Being proactive is not necessarily reading a self help book, though. I tend to be a bit mistrustful of those.
I don't believe it is truly possible to even know what is the real and only cause of depression in any one person. Something could have happened in the womb, or wrong food causing the brain to sort of fog like when someone has hypoglycemia. Or a temporary chemical imbalance caused by a viral illness or despair from the death of a loved one. Abandonment, divorce, you name it.
Or just the hardness of life.
I suffered a severe depression after the birth of my first surviving child and I believed in God and nothing helped. If you read many of the prophets in the Bible such as Elijah they suffered from time to time severe depression. He asked God to let him die and God did a strange and simple thing. He sent an angel to give him food, water and told him to go to sleep and get rest.
For me I was too lost to do much except survive for a while.Then I made myself start walking, first a little, later a lot, really watched my nutrition and intake of sugar, and STAYED AWAY FROM THOSE ACCURSED SELF HELP AND HELPFUL BOOKS.I just sort of felt my way thru from day to day and I did a lot of self talk and writing in a diary and that really helped. In time I was fine. I still have my moments. I dont' think for a moment it means God has left the person, if there is one and I believe there is which really didn't help because I couldn't believe He just let me stay like that.
I think it can be the smallest of things and we each of us have to figure out what the root is and work away at it. In serious situations of course a person needs medical help if for no other reason than to get thru the horror of it if it is that bad.
But drugs really in my opinion often cause more trouble than help and vitamins could be just as effective along with a really good health regime and rest and someone to talk to.
What I am stumbling along to say is.............I have no definitive answer.
Happiness is highly overrated. I mean, would there be any books had it not been for misery and unhappiness? don't think so. And were would we all be then?
I'm sure it's true, but it doesn't help me, because I don't believe in God, and I'm not going to without deluding myself, which would probably make me more unhappy.Quote:
Originally Posted by samah
That's very true, but it still sucks for the people who have to be unhappy to write those books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo
cuppajoe_9: I'm not so sure about that. People who think there are happy usually just haven't realised their unhappiness. keep looking deep inside for some time and you're bound to end up either crazy or depressed.
The harder you look, the more likely you are to see something, and the more you focus on what you find the bigger it becomes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo
It all depends on what you are looking for. :)
I can't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9
REVIVED
.........
This is the closest definition of what I can think of a person being happy. Its a combination of all of what is mentioned in Kathy's post.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathycf
I am the happiest when I am the busiest, it gives me a feeling of some worth. I feel extremely satisfied at the end of the day when I have spent it constructively. Being around with positive people helps, as it is when one is depressed, feeling of self esteem and self worth has hit the lowest, and being around with encouraging people works. I cant comment on religion because I dont practice it, so dont know how it will help a person become happy.
I am not sure if the self-help books really work, because, whenever I am not feeling happy and have read these (not specifically these books, but more serious stuff, meditative, spiritual, etc.) my head becomes so heavy and I start thinking even more, more in terms of the situation becoming even worse. This stuff never has helped me get out of a sticky situation. Being involved in some work, that produces some result has :nod:
The person who reads such books certainly becomes a great thinker (someone who can analyse the situation very well), but how effective solution finder the person becomes is something I would like to know.
Back on that "Science of Happiness" stuff...
...I say "Eh..."
...It tends to get annoying, you know? Science can prove this...Science can prove that...Yeah, yeah...I know, I know. There are somethings that science can prove but...
...It's just...Well, it's just annoying sometimes.
...Especially when science goes into the "emotion" section.
*Sigh*
...Digging too deep to find an answer that has been right in front of you this whole time...
Discovering the science behind emotion isnt just for fun though. The more we learn about how we work, the more we can help society and humanity. Clinical depression is a serious problem, if we learn about the workings of our minds we might be able to find ways to help people who are depressed.
I think it's just another publication on the self-help book section. It's nothing new.
I hate to sound nosy, but I wonder, Joe, how this is coming along for you now. I hope you're doing well. From what I've seen, your post always seem to land on the brighter side of the spectrum. :)
Hi Cuppajoe - hope things are okay with you.
It's an interesting topic you've raised which has, understandably, raised a lot of interest. I've personally been very fortunate that I (to date) have never suffered with depression but I have been around people that have and I wouldn't envy anyone finding themselves in that position, it's so destructive. If the answer to depression could be found in a book then it clearly wouldn't be as prevalent in society as it seems to be these days, and to a certain extent there's something intrinsically wrong in producing a book that 'claims' to help when in fact it just exploits very vulnerable people.
The mind is a complex thing which defies our understanding, and I tend to think of depression as a condition, much in the same way as a cancer, albeit that you can't see or perhaps understand the direct cause. Perhaps scientists will one day discover a 'cure' although I'm not overly optimistic as the causes must be so wide ranging and complex I don't think it's so simple to solve. I do think that depression, or perhaps less so depression but a general unhappiness, has become more prevalent since the 'information age' began and I think this results from a combination of having so much information to process that you can't know what to do with it (what are our benchmarks now, who can we trust, what is the truth?); as well as opening eyes to inequality which leads to envy, which leads to disappointment, which leads to lack of hope, etc. How many people these days queue for days to get on a show like Big Brother, or Pop Idol and the like, just to get the chance to get that 'great' celebrity lifestyle only to be crushed with disappointment when they fail? (I'm not saying this is the case for you cuppajoe - I'm just climbing onto my soapbox a bit!!!) Weren't people happier when they had 'smaller' lives, and lesser expectations?
I have just purchased (but not yet read) The Conquest of Happiness by Bertrand Russell - this was written in the 1930's (when Russell was at his height) which I believe is not aimed at depression but rather 'unhappiness' which I think is a slightly different animal. Might be worth a look if only as a momentary distraction.
Sorry to rattle on a bit there - I've seen so many depressed people recently there's got to be something wrong going on. Really hope you can keep smiling cuppajoe :o)
Well, I'm actually hoping that there is no fun there in the first place. I mean, c'mon, what kind of sicko would have fun toying with emotions?Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
Anyway, do you really think it is possible that a book can truly help those who are depressed?
I think it can...If that depressed person happens to be able to read and their comprehension skills is top notch. Not to mention that the book on "Help" is actually helpful.
A book does not help a person who's depressed...A person helps another person who's depressed...
I don't know about you folks but...Most depressed people tend to not want to read.
I think you are over simplifying the issue. That is your opinion, but an opinion, no matter how sincere does NOT equal fact. Yes, depression can have the effect of lessening one's desire to engage in reading, and yes, a depressed person can become easily distracted and overwhelmed. This is not always the case however, and it is wise to not over-generalize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Sephiroth
This puzzles me. Are you trying to say depressed people are illiterate? I think you are too bright for that sort of statement. As for comprehension, that varies from person to person anyway. There are plenty of people who aren't depressed who have very poor comprehension. Personally, I have very good comprehension and love to read. And yes, I am one of those depressed people, there are many of us here at the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Sephiroth
Now mind you, I am not trying to pick a fight or start some massive debate about mental illness. That was done a few months ago in General Chat and I don't care to re-visit that. I think you are pretty cool, from what I read from you, so don't take me as being antagonistic here.
This particular self help book that is discussed by Cuppajoe in the initial post, well...I have no experience with it. Don't really care to, to tell you the truth. That isn't to say all such books are garbage because that would be...an over-generalization.
I can speak from experience and say one such book that helped me deal with some issues and feel I was not alone:
The Courage to Heal. I am not going to get into detail about what specific issues the book covers, if anybody needs to know, they can google it.
:lol: Over simplifying? Hmm...Sorry 'bout that. Must be another bad habit of mine.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by kathycf
Eh...Anyway, I don't think I was over-generalizing...I just happen to not go into details and be clear about it. It happens now and then...I'm sure you been there, right?:D
Well, first things first...Aww...Thank you for thinking I'm soooo cool!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kathycf
Okay, moving on. What was it...? You're puzzled about something I said?:sick: Hmm...Well, I ain't saying depressed people can't read nor am I saying that they can't comprehend things...I'm just saying that SOME depressed people wouldn't want to read and...SOME depressed folks tend to be confused and/or lose sight of their "objectives".
You also said you were one of those "depressed" people, right? But your comprehension skills and head was still intact? Well, in that case, you must be one of those rare execptions.
But, just so you know, I'm one of those "depressed" people too.:D So hop on board!:lol:
...Umm...Well, at least I think I'm depressed...Hmm...:idea: ...Yep...I'm pretty sure I'm depressed....Someway...Somehow.:p
Now for the fight...There's no way I would pick a fight you.:p I may be depressed, but I ain't crazy!:lol:
Debate? Umm...I would much rather avoid fighting and debating. Heck, even negotiating. But, negotiating is what it usually comes to if I decide to intervene. I'm much to lazy to do either, really...In fact, I might just jump off a cliff to avoid all three.:D
*Sigh*
Well, hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. Besides, I think you already knew in the first place that I wasn't "over-generalizing". Maybe you just needed the verification from the one who spoke those words himself, eh?
Also, I give you a peace offering!
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...s/5ef83802.gif
...Since I'm so lazy...Make that rose a Valentine's rose too...:D