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Hi everyone,
I know that many persons here think that Christine should have stayed with Erik and love him as he deserved and Raoul bothers you.
I haven't read the book yet so I can't say something about that but as I see in the film Raoul's love is real. is it a disadvantage to be handsome and to be grown up in good conditions. I think that his past is what made Erik's love warmer. ısn't there anyone who thinks like me
I Think chrisine should have stayed with Erik instead of running off with that rich-always-gets-his-way fop vicomte roul de changy.
(Can you see how much I hate Roul the Fop??!!??)
In the movie Raoul was an Idiot. First of all, he doesn't stop and think that maybe the whole "caged and beaten and shown as a hideous demon worthy only of hell" thing might have been what unhinged him and that maybe it's understandable in some way what he did. It's "Clearly genius has turned to madness" (though, really, aren't all geniuses at least a bit mad?)- a rather cliche line.
Also, the ending bit of "I fought so hard to free you". WHO fought so hard to free her?! All he did was win a swordfight that should've been cake (Raoul being younger gave him the advantage of stamina, Erik probably didn't have much if any formal training with swords beyond crafting one), come up with an idea that any idiot could have said would've ended like that, and throw his "love" to the lions and hope it all worked out.
AND HOW HARD IS IT TO THINK TO JUMP DOWN THE PIT PHANTOM AND CHRISTINE PLUMMETED THROUGH INSTEAD OF ASKING MADAME GIRY?!
*coughs* My apologies. That sort of annoys me...
Also, there was no Chemistry between the two. Christine loved him as a childhood friend- not as a lover. It was extremely clear in the "all I as of you" scene compared with "music of the night". Christine was obviously hot for Erik but had no real desires or anything like that towards Raoul.
Although... he's alot better than little miss Christine "Raoul is getting choked/in a duel to the death so I'll just sit here and stare in horror" Daae.
I don't like either of them.
those lines made me laugh audibly during the film. I don't normally laugh at the second one during the show, but you're right rdraconis - what fighting? he just got a scratch in a fight he could have won (since erik didn't have his punjab lasso) and a bit wet in a stupid trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDraconis
and the only way I knew emmy rossum was even alive during the movie in general was her heaving breaths. she just stood back and watched 'in horror'. I'm sure being in a (rather melodramatic and random) situation like that would be horrific, but even leroux christine got angry, threw fits and talked back. she just sat there with her mouth open.
for my feelings on raoul and erik in general, see below.
Ah, right, ze punjab lasso. I hadn't read the book yet, so I was always wondering why he seemed to have rope on hand almost always (except the one time he needs it for anything useful). ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by avari
Although, really, if I was dating a guy who constantly had a noose on hand- I think I'd go with the rich idiot as well.
The lines make me roll my eyes more than anything... Although the "nothing will harm you/my words will warm and calm you" makes me wince...
I hadn't thought of this before- but it actually is a disadvantage. Raoul has to worry about what his family will think of him marrying an orphaned Chorus Girl with no standing and whose only claim to fame is one Gala.Quote:
Originally Posted by paledancer
Class was pretty important, and still is now to a degree. That he was marrying down could easily cause a bit of scandal.
And Raoul's love might've been real, but I didn't see Christine showing much love & affection towards Raoul. The kiss in "All I Ask of You" seemed out of character to me...
Erik's past is what makes him a Kitten... It's his actions and Christine's response that make me think she wanted nothing more than to start making out with him in just about every scene they were in together.
ARE YOU MAD?!?!??!?!?! RAOUL IS A FREAKIN IDIOT! HES ALL PRETTY BOY GETS WHAT HE WANTS. I WOULD SOOOOO GO FOR THE PHANTOM CAUSE HES SOOO HOT AND EVEN IF HE DID LOOK LIKE A DEATH'S HEAD I WOULD STILL GO FOR HIM CAUSE he's sooo passionate about music and such a genius! i love music, btw. RAOUL SHOULD GO CHOKE ON A GRAPE AN DIE. i want to go back in time and explain to christine that she's being dumb and i want to stone raoul with lots of grapes. he'll be stupid enough to open his mouth till one goes whole down his throat and he chokes haaaaaaaaa oh gosh i don't like him at ALL. and THANK YOU to those who said he didn't fight at ALL to save her. and it absolutely PISSES ME OFF that they kiss infront of erik when he's already so heart broken! and then in the movie christine sings "say you'll share with me one love one lifetime" as they're going away...like WTF???
yes well...wow that felt good. phew i feel so much better now:) who agrees??
o.o;; um... Not me. First of all- "stone with grapes"?! Notice the word 'stone'? It means you throw rocks at the person to kill them. Grapes would be annoying, possibly messy, but not dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by masks_are_hot
Also, the kiss in front of Erik- do you mean the rooftop? HE WAS SPYING ON THEM! It's what you get for eavesdropping and invading someone's privacy. And at the end, the song was, in a way, a symbol. "Say you'll marry me and love me forever". Erik & Raoul sing it to Christine, but she only sings it to Raoul. It basically symbolizes that they love each other and plan to get married; and that Erik loves her- but she doesn't love him at least not that way. (although in the movie- She definitely lusted after Erik, even if she didn't really love him.)
Well... in the movie/musical version there is also the kiss that Raoul and Christine share after Erik lets Raoul and Christine go. She takes the lasso off of Raoul and kisses him right in front of Erik (poor unhappy Erik). Okay, so I love Erik's character and I still think if goodness is shown to him he can become good. If he only recieves ill-treatment and shunning and terrible roumors spread about him, no wonder he would kill to possess the woman he loves more than himself and no wonder he is as violent as he is. He was in a freak show as a child and he was beaten! Erik only has a desire to love and to be loved for himself. I also think that Erik could have come up with a WAY better tribute to Christine's memory than "Beloved wife and mother." Honestly, what was Raoul thinking?!?!
I agree with RDraconis. I mean Erik was unattainable to her. he was an angel, she couldn't see him, touch him she could only hear his voice that's the way she felt him. wouldn't that make her lust after him? but I don't think she loves him (in the movie, at least) I've read many of you say "I would stay with Eric" OK. life with Eric is good but as long as he's a ghost. what kind of relationship would be between he and Christine after all that happened, furthermore in that cave. if she had stayed with him a life of madness would have destroyed her and what was between them
On the 'Beloved Wife and Mother'- I agree. If Erik wrote it, it'd be like 'You alone can make my song take flight' or something terribly romantic and memorable like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomLover2
Actually, I agree with everything you said. I'll be the first to say that every time he said that the world didn't accept him, his own mother didn't accept him, etc. someone should've been realizing that this means all he really needs is a hug (not literally). I mean 'Met With Hatred Everywhere...A Mother's fear and loathing' doesn't lead to 'It's in your soul the true distortion lies', it should lead to {look of realization} '... Oh.'
At least in the book she showed some compassion towards him, not wanting to leave until he'd heard her sing again so it might not hurt as much.
Definitely. In the book it was a house- and he'd said that he'd made a "human" mask so they could go out like a normal couple, but that still wasn't great. And it was underground... And any house that has a torture chamber isn't exactly "home sweet home".Quote:
Originally Posted by paledancer
In the movie, however, there was no future. They couldn't even stay in the cave because it was about to be discovered by a vengeful, angry mob. He had an escape route, but we don't know where it led or anything like that.
If they could've had it so things were more or less the same as before- he was the Opera Ghost, she was a singer/dancer, they both lived in the Opera House- things might've worked out. But that wasn't the way things were.
Okay! So I was reading this message board and even though I wasn't a member of the website, I had to join, just so I could join in on these discussions! After all, who doesn't like talking about Erik and all that jazz? :nod:
Anyway, here's my view on the whole deal (I'm a Leroux-lover and it's my fave version -- considering it's the original :) I do love the stage musical, too! But I do notnotnot like the 04 movie version).
Raoul really loved Christine. Yes, he was rather immature, but he was a young boy. A young, naive, sweet, rash boy. We all know how long it takes for males to mature! He had very... impulsive ways of showing his love, but like I said, he was young.
(p.s. Yes, I agree. Movie!Raoul was rather stupid. Although, I LOVE Patrick Wilson's voice :) Haha, but I do agree with "I fought so hard to free you!" Suuure, he did. ;))
But Leroux!Raoul showed so much love for the soprano. If he didn't love her, he wouldn't have gone on that insane search to find her when she had disappeared in the middle of a performance. He darted about everywhere, asking anyone in sight if they knew where Christine Daae was, and every time, he was laughed at! Yet he still subjected himself to the mockery and such and continued to look for her. And unlike Movie!Raoul, he did fight extreeeeeeeeeemely hard to free her. Torture chamber, anyone? ::shudders:: He and the Persian almost drowned trying to reach her!
And Christine did love him. They were childhood sweethearts! He made her feel safe and comforted. And I do believe she loved Erik -- but not in the romantic way she cared for Raoul. I think her love for Erik was that of a student's to her teacher; her love for Erik originated from pity and compassion. However, his intensity and passion frightened her -- of course, it did! How couldn't it frighten a young and innocently naive girl? She didn't understand the emotions that Erik made her feel.
But don't get me wrong. I do love Erik :)
And I think it was pretty obvious Erik loved Christine, lol. Yes, he showed everything in an insanely frightening way (kidnapping her in the middle of a performance, telling her he was the Angel of Music, etc), and he was terribly obsessive, but as someone else said previously in this forum (I think maybe in another discussion), that was all he knew. His mother had treated him horrificly during his childhood because of his deformity, and it is said that the first five years are the shaping of the child (that's what I've heard, anyway).
Soo... basic summary of my post: I believe that Raoul loved Christine romantically, Christine loved Raoul romantically and Erik out of pity and compassion. :)
Oh! And avari: I TOTALLY agree about Emmy's facial expressions. When I read what you had written, I laughed for a few minutes. Heehee, so true! I wouldn't be surprised if she swallowed a few flies!
Thank you, darlings, for letting me put my two cents in, and it's good to see that PoTO still sparks so much interest and conversation!
Much love,
Erica
I have written good things about Raoul and his relationship with Christine and I still haven't been killed that's something!:-)
Movie: Bah... Raoul loved her. She sorta felt like they were friends kind of love. She lusted after Erik. Erik loved her. w00t!Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ingenue
Book: Haven't read it in awhile and I skim too much. But I definitely agree he frightened her. I mean, didn't the entire thing from she hears the voice for the first time to the end of the book happen over, like, 3-6 months? Definitely under a year. That's alot to happen. She also had to deal with Raoul and her feelings for him and what it meant in relation to her feelings towards Erik and how Erik would react to Raoul. That alone would cause her to be remarkably confused.
I mean, just the feeling of "I'm hearing a voice who's teaching me music and I'm falling in love with him but he's scary as heck and loves me and cares for me and wouldn't hurt me except for that one time..." that Erik undoubtibly conjures up would mess with anyone, especially with someone like Christine. It kind of kills any chance for "I love you". It's really more "I really care about him and don't want to make him suffer at all but please, please, please take me away quick" as she pointed out in Apollo's Lyre or whatever that chapter was. I mean... that's crazy scary.
And I don't deny Erik loved Christine. But he was really old, and I can't help but wonder what would happen if Chrissy ever reached the point where she can't excel further in her singing. If maybe after a bit of attempting he'd give up on her- find a new voice to try to cultivate to perfection.
Of course, it's mainly caused by the movie. Lyrics like "You're chains are still mine, you are bound to me" "You have come here for one purpose and one alone." "brave young suitor, sharing in my triumph!" Those make me think it's the music he loves, not the girl. And that he thought of her more as a tool.
In the book it wasn't so much- but that doesn't mean it wasn't still possible. I mean, he was pretty old and had been there since the Opera House was built. And supposedly he helped 6 dancers reach high social status- what's to say he didn't help improve the voices of other singers and loved them just as much?
nice one.:brow:Quote:
Originally Posted by smsram
Me, once again, posting on a Phantom thread!
This whole thread makes me sick. Seriously. Doesn't anyone have ANY sense or smarts at ALL? These are the worst "opinions" I've ever read. And I am a member on POTO.com, so I know bad opinions.
You all sound like, "Gerry phan gurls." These are their posts:
"OMG! LYKE GERARD IS SOOOOHAWTT!2!!!1! LYKE, RAUL IZ A FOP ND SHUD DIE!!! ND, LYKE< I HTE HIM SOOS BADDD!! LYKE< GERARD IZ HAWT!"
Ew. *eye twitches* I really am not exaggerating. And I'm not trying to totally degrade you all, but I have to say that some of these "facts" disgust me.
I'm sorry. I would not marry someone who had stalked me for years, tricked me into thinking he was an angel sent by my deceased father whom I loved with all my heart, taught me to sing, kidnapped me, tried to kill my new love interest, and nearly drove me insane. Not to mention his lack of a nose, bad teeth, yellow eyes, and sickly body. *sigh* Yes, what incredibly bad taste I have!
And I cannot take someone seriously if they don't even know how to spell Raoul's name correctly. RAOUL. R-A-O-U-L.
*sigh* Don't get me started on the fop thing...all right, you just did. Erik is more of a fop than Raoul. Just think about it. Fop: Dandy, someone who is vain and obsessed with their looks.
You don't see Raoul wearing a wig and mask for a bad sunburn, do you? Erik is totally all over his looks. Just take a minute to think about it, please.
All right, just because Raoul is rich and handsome means we all hate him, right? *bangs head on computer* And we all love Erik because he's an insane homicidal maniac who is rich and who should get Christine because apparently he loved her more and even though Christine didn't love him, it's all about Erik, right? So why SHOULDN'T Erik get Christine? UGH!
This is like Romeo & Juliet. "It's shooooo romantic!" He wubs her sooooo much! He'd do anything for her! They should go and get married and have beautiful, musical genius kids that are so beautiful because Erik would be soooo beautiful if it weren't for that half of hid face! Yah. It's their fantasy, I don't see too much problem with it. Actually, I really like the fantasy- especially in terms of the movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Child
I really would like to see book-Erik find happiness, though...
Also- in the book it wasn't a bad sunburn. And it wasn't a freaking white mask- it was black, allowing him to blend into the shadows further. Basically, he was a black figure with two yellow lights from his eyes. It didn't just make it so you didn't see the deformity- it added to the feeling that he was nothing but a spectre.
In the '25 movie he had a white mask, but that was probably only because it's hard to show a black mask and have it look good in black & white. This time it was more to hide his appearance- but that's because it was easier to move about unnoticed with that mask. It looked wrong, but less wrong than his real face.
In the musical, however, it's not even a full mask. And it's 100x more noticeable than his normal deformities, because they weren't that bad and white catches the eye more than skin tone.
I don't know why Webber decided to make it a musical... Yeah, if we had left it at the '25 version you'd hear no "OMG! CHRISSY LURRRVVVSSSS ERIKK!!!111!". >_<
I don't like Christine or Raoul in the musical-movie, there wasn't any chemistry. But, I think she and Raoul loved each other in every other version- so I agree they should be together. But I still think Erik should have had some happiness. Not her or anything... just something or someone.
Erik is too "tyranny", you know. He wants Christine so much but at the end, he didn't gain anything but a kiss. But I guess it's enough for him already, that's why he let Christine and Raoul escaped.
He wasn't really a tyrant any more than he thought he had to be. I mean, think about it, when you grow up getting treated like that- you think that's how everyone'll be after awhile, and just stop giving people that much benefit of the doubt.
*laughs* Yeah, I was bummed about the whole movie/musical mask. But it's a LOT harder for actors to show facial expressions and such with a full-face mask. And I was especially ticked when I saw that Erik had a real nose in the movie. It was basically impossible onstage, but now with all of the special effects coming out they should have made the Phantom look more gruesome. Erik is not a sex-god, really, seriously, people. So all of you phan gurls who are saying, "OMG! LYKE< ERICK IS SOOO FRIGIN" HAUWT!!! ND< ND LYKE I WUNT 2 KISS HIM NDLYKE STUF! YAH!!!" I must burst your bubble. Erik is NOT "hauwt" or "schmexy" in any way. Unless you think a fifty year-old virgin who stinks of death, has yellow eyes, rotting teeth, and the body of an undernourished five year-old is "hauwt." Correct me if anyone does.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDraconis
And RDraconis, that's what Mary-Sues are for, right? :crash:
Man, I wouldn't wish a Mary-Sue on anyone... Especially not after this really bad Orlando Bloom/Artemis Fowl fic with the main character being a Mary-Sue who thought adding 'ola' to the end of words meant she was speaking spanish. *shudders* Mary-Sues are freeeaaaky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering_Child
Maybe not a Mary-Sue so much as a cat-girl that acts like a cat. The thing about kitties is that they're just as temperamental, and very affectionate when they want to be. ^_^ I think that'd be amusing....
Yeah, I think if they made Erik like he was Erik- the musical wouldn't have worked. For some idiot reason people can't mesh perfect music with ugly, especially not for musicals.
And I don't think Erik's hot, but I do find him adorable. I'm just weird like that... ^^;
Would you like to help me kill Mary-Sues? I'm plotting with some people on POTO.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDraconis
Kitties? :confused:
Personally, I love a good, well-written musical phanphiction, but there seem to be less and less, so I stick with Leroux. Usually the intelligent people are the ones who have taken the time to read Leroux and write delicious stories.
I think Gerard Butler is actually very attractive. Yes. I will admit that. Musical Erik is not as "hauwt" in the body as he is in his...mental (? not right word)...attitude? *laughs* Can't explain myself right now...and I love Leroux!Erik simply because he is totally insane and creepy. :D
Raoul thought Chritstine was a "Gawkish"(pardon my spelling) girl, but she isn't a "gawkish" girl any more, maybe it surprised Raoul, so he fell in love with her.
Yeah...uh...we know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by emilysweety
Christine and Raoul were childhood sweethearts, remember, so of course they were inclined to have some sort of affection for each other once they saw each other again. And as things lea up to one another they ended up falling in love. A classic move. *le sigh*
I think Christine had some kind of affection for Eric, but not love. an admiration, actually. he was teaching her, without showing himself and Christine thought he was an angel who also protected her. considering these, it seems impossible for her not to feel something for him. She has great feelings, true but she is also afraid. You can't observe this kind of fear in love. She is like a little girl who admires and wants to please a god.
Besides, all of these feelings, this admiration have been almost destroyed more and more. She saw the ugly side of him physically and psychologically. She had known him for years (sort of knowing) and then suddenly everything is destroyed, she realizes that he is not a god, not a totally graceful, hymn being, that he is just a human. Hurt, humiliated but still a man. this is where she starts to fear deathly.
On the other hand, Raoul has always been in her heart, we can see this: she gets upset when Raoul first shows up and doesn't recognize her. It doesn't mean she doesn't love him just because she doesn't tear herself of love. This is not Romeo&Juliet she has other issues to deal. Think about yourselves. Would showing love, showing affection be the most important thing when you are dealing with a problem like hers? especially if showing this love is so dangerous under the circumstances. she told Raoul she loved him, and look what happened: Eric has gone madder.
Eric was an important part of her life, he inspired her voice,right. and all she wanted was to be happy with Raoul without losing him just like a daughter whıo wants to be with someone and to have her father's permission about it.
It's EriK :) And that was beautifully put!Quote:
Originally Posted by paledancer
I don't think Christine should have stayed with Erik instead of Raoul, because that's Christine's choice, not my. And Christine is way older than me, so i can't judge that. But, if I was Christine I would have chosen Erik. Because Erik is way hotter than Raoul, and he's a genius, he's a composer, an architect, a designer, etc. Most importantly, he loves me very much. I don't care how does he look like, i love him...
Your opinions are based entirely off of the '04 movie. I actually think Patrick Wilson is very attractive. And speaking of him, what about Raoul? He also loves Christine very much. Erik's love was an obsessive, possessive kind of love. I would be frightened out of my wits if someone stalked me for three months, drugged me, kidnapped me, and then forced me to marry him.Quote:
Originally Posted by emilysweety
Yes, Erik was all of those things. But Raoul had been in the navy and such. That counts, right?
Wandering_Child, I actually agree with you on a lot of that. Although I really don't think that Erik is a fop. That's just how the movie people made him look. (God, I keep wanting to call him Gerard for some weird reason. Maybe since I first saw the '04 movie, I've had this insane crush on Gerry Butler.)
P.G.7.
P.S. I'm also Phangirl7 on POTO.com. It's nice to know there's other Phantom Phans on more than one site.
I haven't read every single post, so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone else has already pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDraconis
I definitely think Christine should have married Raoul, and I've both read the book and seen the movie.
You're right, Erik was spying on them! Now, I felt bad for Erik, but clearly his grave misfortune had driven him mad. He wasn't fit for any woman to be with long term. He killed people, for heaven's sake!
I don't even think Christine lusted after Erik. She thought he might be the "angel of music" that her father had promised to send her. She felt an obligation to her father to see Erik, and she was fascinated with him to some degree, but lust and love, no.
Raoul truly loved Christine. He fought Erik in the cemetery for Christine and put his own life at risk. Erik was unstable, he was a broken man deserving of our sympathy, but he had nothing to offer a woman. Raoul had a life to offer Christine, a life to share. And apparently, he loved her for many, many years, as the ending of the film shows us. He was devoted to her. Perhaps Erik was, too, but in a very warped way. Raoul's love was not warped.
I agree. That's what I mean by Erik's love being very warped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering Child
And I also agree. Patrick Wilson as Raoul was very, very attractive, and he showed no signs of being spoiled at all.
I am looking forward to reading this thread and commenting. Erik is such an interesting character, although he is a monster of sorts, there is something more inside.
I think there was, but the fire destroyed the good in Erik. He's just obsessed afterwards. He kills and maims for the pleasure of it.
I can't stand Erik! Really, really, really dislike him intensely. I felt sorry for him, but I still really disliked him.
In Leroux, Raoul loved Christine quite deeply, to the point he was willing to die for her to save her life - even in Webber's version. In addition, he opposed his brother, Philippe, who was against the match. He dared to marry beneath his class, which would have been a huge obstacle in life. Philippe clung to the class system, thinking no doubt Raoul's marriage to Christine was social suicide for his brother. Raoul is also a symbol in the story, if you dig deep enough, especially in Webber's version. He's portrayed as a savior and saint in many ways as well, where Erik represents darkness (as much as we all love the dude). You might check my blog for more in depth analysis. I have a lot of respect for his character in many ways. He's an important aspect of the story for a reason and not just a sissy to be scorned.