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Raoul seems to me to be a spoiled brat. At one point in the book while trying to convince Christine to run away with him, he throws an adult temper-tantrum and accuses Christine of not loving him and loving Erik. Besides, Raoul annoys me anyway. I would have stayed with Erik and loved him as he deserved. Does anyone else feel that way/Does Raoul seem like a spoiled child to anyone else?
Actually, I completely agree with you. Webber's Raoul is slightly more tolerable. But I also think he is a spoiled brat.
Christine did NOT love Raul, and Raul did NOT love Christine. Christine loved the Phantom. The Phantom told her to leave at the end. In the musical Raul uses Christine as bait when he thinks the Phantom is so crazy! That is NOT love! He was totally jealaus!
Christine doesn't love Raoul, she only have admiration for him. Do you notice, in the musical, she never actually says 'I Love you' to either of them?
I can not stand Roul he is such a brat like you said but that is human nature and Roul and Christine love each other but Christine's fear and sympathe stopped her from ever admitting it
Christine mouths the words "I love you" to Rauol just before she kisses the Phantom.
Hi there! I'm a fan of the musical and since reading your threads i'm going to go to the library tomorrow to borrow the book!
Since this thread seemed to be about the movie i wanted to put my opinion on the air about the Roul, Christine, Phantom triangle.
Firstly the Raoul is a spoiled brat thing- i kinda get it but not really. Like you said though the book raoul is worse. In the musical he's sweet- brings her flowers, guards her door so she can sleep without fear, calms her when she's frightened, he seems like a pretty decent guy.
I personally wouldn't have stayed with the phantom and i don't think christine should have either. The Phantom was deranged, he should be pitied in the time relevent meaning of the word, But she was terrified of him.
Meg "Your face christine, it's white"
Chris "It frightens me"
Meg "Don't be frightened"
Plus then the whole murderer thing.
As to Christine, i pretty much accept that back in the day people fall in love pretty quick, so i think she probably loved raoul.
In the musical while i never noticed that she didn't say she loved raoul that was cause i took it for fact from the scenes on the roof.
Chris "...his eyes will find me there, those eyes that burn. He has to kill a thousand men..." continue on about the fear.
Chris "All i want is freedom, a world with no more night, and you always beside me, to gaurd me and to hide me." Engagement song.
And yes it was bad of raoul to use her as bait but he thought she'd be safe. I always found fault with that though cause he announced his plan in the opera house- what an idiot! ;)
To refer to another thread. About what did raoul mean when he sang 'say you love him and my life is over" I think it was metaphorical not that he would actually kill himself, but he is distraught cause the woman he loves would have to spend the rest of her life married to someone that is deranged, whom he believes she fears. Be a pretty hard pill to swallow if someone gave up their freedom for years of sorrow just for little old you. The Phantom wins either way because he either gets to kill raoul or ruin raouls happiness and keep the girl. Either way the loving couple is torn apart. That's just the way i saw and again i haven't read the book so maybe i'm missing something.
Long post, sorry, but to finish off i reckon that the phantom was nuts, that he had some pull over christine that was mystical not love, and that Love is defined by selfless acts for your beloved (eg. giving up your life to spare theirs) and not obsessive controlling selfish motives.
Granted he did let them both go in the end, that was his saving grace and what makes me think he did actually love christine.
I SO CAN'T WAIT TO READ THE BOOK!!!!
This is not meant to be inflamatory or disrespectful in any way, i just love raoul :brow: :nod:
i think the feelings and emotions of the phantom is messed up because he was lacking for love. "poor Erick" said Christen. and i gree with her. it hurts so badly when someone is not loved. i think that love is the food of the soul.
Good call.
:nod: If I were Christine, I would totally be in love with Erik! That stupid raul always throws to many tantrums like a TODDLER! Iwould fall in love with eric.
(The Andrew Loyd Webber Musical Version of Raul is much nicer, and Erik is much more romantic! ;) I WOULD TOTALLY FALL IN LOVE WITH ERIK!!!!!
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Song “Think of Me”
When Christine sings "Think of Me" on stage, Raoul discovers that the young singer is Christine, his childhood sweetheart. The words of the song seems to have two meanings. The first is a reflection on the relationship that Christine and Raoul had as children. But, the song also foreshadows the relationship that Christine and Erik will ultimately have. Raoul is a typical wealthy son of the rich. Definitely a spoiled brat. If he had really cared for Christine as a child, he would have kept in touch with her, especially after her father's death. I haven't read the books yet, to know more than what the the movie has shown me.
Christine being frightened of Erik
Christine sings that she is frightened at the time she is singing with Meg. What she is frightened about is that her secret is no longer just that. Erik’s identity has not been shown to her, but, her fear is most likely that she does not know what to expect as a repercussion for the breach in secrecy. She says that her Angel of Music is not a secret, safe and in danger. Then when Erik makes his presence after the show regarding Raoul's attention and taking credit for her glory, Christine asks for her Master to show himself. When he does, she is instantly in a daze and is mesmerized by Erik. There is no fear in her eyes at all until she removes his mask. If she had not done so, the mystery of Erik would have continued to enchant her. Although, every time she saw Erik she was still very much enchanted and mesmerized by Erik, even at the masquerade. The only time she showed her fear of Erik was in the presence of Raoul.
Christine also states several different times about Erik being a murderer. There are several posts about villain vs good. I do not see Erik as a villain. When he first took a life as a child, it was because someone was stealing his gold pieces as the symbols for his monkey toy. That was the only thing he possessed of value. He was protecting what was his. Then the others that he killed were basically to preserve his identity as a “ghost”. If they lived, they would divulge that it was a real “man”. It was a way to keep people from possibly entering his lair and destroying his life. This concept is much like the American Indians in the movie “Last of the Dogmen.” They killed people that wandered to close to where they were living; they were American Indians that escaped moving to reservations living life as their ancesters had. They were protecting their way of life. Erik didn’t seem to kill anyone that hadn’t seen him up close other than Madam Ciry (who protected him until she told her story to Raoul), Christine & then Raoul.
I don't think that Christine is confused. She loves both men in different ways. And Erik makes the decision to bow out. Christine's kiss was enough for him to know that she really did love him. No one had ever showed him so much compassion. And her return of the ring she slipped onto her finger before the kiss was a symbolism of eternal love. She gave it back to him to let him know that he was not alone and that it was proof that she would love him forever. Erik then later returns the ring to her at her grave as proof that he did love her for eternity. In the song "All I Ask of You", there is a line about love and live one lifetime together. Raoul got the first lifetime. Erik and Christine will get the second lifetime after death we can only hope. And Erik will be as handsome as Gerard Butler playing his part in the opera.
Come on! I LOVE Raoul! :)
WHatever else he was, Erik was a murder, and there wasn't any excuse for some of his murders.
Raoul was spoiled. As people pointed out, he sorta had to be.
Also, in the book, her father didn't die until /much/ later in life and they didn't meet each other, from what I could tell, until after the time they parted in the movie and spent years together. They might've fallen out of touch- but it also might be that his parent's wouldn't let them.
After all, their precious son dove into the /OCEAN/ in his good clothes to get some scarf. :D
In the book Erik is much more... ah... Mad than he's portrayed in the movie. It's not just "Marry me or I kill him". It's "Marry me or the entire place explodes, not that I'll tell you this straight- you have to find out." He also frightened me considerably more than in the movie. I don't think I'd want to be in the same building as Leroux's Erik for longer than a minute- much less wed to him for a lifetime. Christine probably felt the same way.
As for the whole "Did Christine love Raoul" thing... I think she did. Alot of what she does around Raoul seems to be her attempts to keep him safe from Erik.
Now, in the movie, I think she loved Phantom. He was just much more lovable, not quite as bad, and seemed kind of sane- if not a bit disturbed and murderous. She probably would've stayed with Erik more or less willingly in the movie, but he made her leave.
In the book, yes. In the movie I disagree, if you look at his personality and everything else they give you. There also weren't as many we're told about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llawen
"Evil Gypsy" (that's what he's called on IMDB)- Caged him, beat him, cursed him out, and showed him to the world as the 'monster' he was. Really, he deserved it. No one likes being caged, beaten, or displayed as a freak. Put all that together for long enough and you'll do anything to escape.
Joseph Buquet- First of all, he keeps talking about Phantom. This is bad. Madam Giry advises against it, for good reason.
If you look at it- Erik also hates being cornered. He knows all the ways out, even in his little cave he had a secret exit for emergencies. That Joseph was now trying to 'catch' him probably got him really annoyed and showed him that the behavior had to be stopped.
Piangi- Ok... this one I can understand as being uncalled for. It was mostly because he needed to play Don Juan and couldn't have Piangi waking up and alerting everyone.
Chandelier- This was to hurt everyone simply becuse he was mad at the world by now, since even the one person he thought might love him betrayed him like that. Also, it was his way to escape to be sure /he/ didn't die.
Hey I just want to point out one thing.
Is everyone forgetting about Christine Coming back to bury Erik at the end of the book. She kept her promise to Erik and I think this along with other moments in th book prove that she did love Erik. Yes She thought he was a deranged murder, but she felt sorry for him because he never knew what it was to be loved or to have anything to care about. Because of these feelings she grew fond of him, and began to love him.
And I think she also loved Raoul. They grew up as childhood sweet hearts and were parted, only to meet up by chance years later. After their meeting hey still felt fond of each other and let their love for each opther grow.
Christine Loved Erik and Raoul both very much. And i think Erik must have not been completely insane because he realized what it was to love and to care for someone, and because he found these emotions that was why he was albe to let chritine go in the book.
thanks i just wanted to say my thoughts on the matter.
Kenneth Matheson
I think most people mean "man and wife" love not any other kind. And I agree she was fond of him, definitely pitied him (she didn't want to leave until he heard her sing again). Although... I don't recall her returning. The last page just says:Quote:
Originally Posted by krmatheson
She promised to... but it never said she did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroux
I agree she pitied him, he had her sympathies, maybe was even fond of him. Heck, she might've considered him a friend. I don't think she quite loved him... not that much. And she might have left him to rot... It did mention they'd taken the train somewhere. She might not have heard he died, or if she did- might not have been able to go.
The book, the musical, and the movie all give a different version of Erik and his story. I found myself favoring the movie, I liked this version of Erik best and the actor (Gerard Butler) brought the character to life in a unique way.
I believe Christine loved both men, but differently. I also felt that despite Erik's distortion (and I don't mean the face, I mean the mental instability which resulted from years of ridicule and abuse) they were like soul mates. It began with him serving as kind of a "Phantom Father" when she was a child, he was more parternal - she believed him to be her Angel of Music. I believe Music was the only language he had that would allow him to feel. They had that language in common which is what he was drawn to. (The movie DVD has a second DVD with special facts on it, there is a deleted scene on it where the Phantom sings "No one would listen" and that tells what his connection with her was.) I also believe that when she became a young woman (all of 16) passion developed between them too - she was drawn to him, and he to her. Only she wasn't aware of it for a while. At the end when she returns the ring to him, it confirmed she did love him and she wanted to be with him. But, in reality she could not bear to live in the darkness with him, not the dark environment - the darkness of his Soul. (The side of him that could kill).
As for Raul, I believed that he and she loved each other too. He was portrayed as maybe a few years older than she (maybe 21 years old) and they had a common history. "Childhood sweethearts" she stated earlier. But, not so much a spoiled brat in the movie. Some arrogance as one might expect, but mostly he wanted to be her Knight in Shining Arnour or the Man on the White Horse - a Hero, always protecting and saving her. He and Erik were obviously competetive. Their love reminded me more of a Fairy Tale - like Cinderella and Prince Charming. The good life - yes, but not sure the soulful connection or the passion would be there. He simply accepted that a part of her would always remain with the Phantom. (That is why he brings the monkey to her grave at the end - symbolic of this in my opinion.) Also, at the graveside Raul sees the single long-stemmed Red Rose with the black silk ribbon and the engagement ring fastened to it. (Also symbolic - representing that the Phantom (though much older than Christine and Raul) was still alive and grieved her death too.
At the end, when Erik lets her go I believe it was because he did finally know (after she kissed him) that she did Love him, and that knowlege gave him some kind of peace and he could finally let go of his own desire to keep her and free her for her sake and he lets her go at the cost of his own devastation. (In the movie version, he made me cry more than once.)
As for the Musical, I'm not sure. I saw it years ago and only had vague understanding of the story line then. And the book is more of a horror, completely different.
Sorry - guess I wrote my own book here. (I am passionate about POTO)
Some of these first posts had me frowning. "CHRISTINE LOVED RAUL!" Please, it's Raoul. And it's spelled EriK.
No. Christine did not love Erik. She felt a certain pity for him, I will admit, but if you had any common sense you would listen to the lyrics. "...a world with no more NIGHT. And YOU always beside me...."
Even in the book she is frightened. "I no longer knew myself when I sang. I was even FRIGHTENED." Go look up frightened in the dictionary.
The movie was all about sexuality. I'm sorry. It was. The book was much more in-depth, and that is why it is my favorite. I do love the musical, but the book will always be the best version. The biggest thing, IMO, in the book, was Erik's deformity. He was a corpse, smelt of death, and basically went insane in the end of the book. Don't get me wrong, I love Erik with all my heart, but the whole no nose, no hair, cats eyes, and stick-thinness is not my type of guy.
And now I must rant about Raoul. I love Raoul with all my heart. I am a die-hard Raoul defender on POTO.com. Raoul did NOT steal Christine. Christine CHOSE Raoul. Christine is at least smart enough to know what she wants, and she chose Raoul. If she didn't want Raoul, she would have bluntly stated that she loved Erik and not him.
And the whole fop deal. Erik is more of a fop than Raoul is, at any case. What is a fop, you might ask? "Dandy, one who is vain." Yup. Sounds like Erik to me. And why did he let her go in the end? I personally believe that he knew that he could never make Christine love him like she loved Raoul.
Yes, you're disagreeing with me. My opinion with the musical is completely different with that of the book. They have two totally different Eriks, so right now I am sticking with Leroux's version.
So, now you all can hate me after I have totally disagreed with most of you. But RDraconis, you are the person I most agree with right now! Go you! *high-fives*
WOOT! *returns Wandering's high-five*
But, yeah, I kinda hate everything that turns Erik into some sort of sex-god. A large part of his 'attraction' as a character is that he's deformed, he's insane, and it's really hard to love him if you actually know him- and yet he still manages to inspire some feelings of pity from a Diva. Yeah, Christine was a good girl- but it's really hard to meet someone like that and feel anything but revulsion and pity. Christine overcame that enough to want to let him here her sing one last time and to deal with him for almost a week. That's impressive. I mean, imagine living for that long with what's basically a walking corpse.
Making it seem like he could've had any girl he wanted because despite the fact he was deformed, he was still sensual in other ways... That kills it. It just makes it seem like some stupid romance story.
However- I disagree with your calling Erik a fop. Yeah, he was concerned with his appearance- but vain generally implies that they think highly of themselves. Also, here are my dictionairy's definitions-
fop: a man who is so obsessed by fashion and vain about his own appearance that he becomes ridiculous
dandy: 1. a person or thing considered to be very good or the best in its class (informal)
2. a man who is much concerned with his elegant appearance (dated)
By those definitions, fop doesn't fit either of them- but Raoul could be described as a dandy. Which makes sense because he was a vicomte (or whatever) and he was described as still having a somewhat feminine appearance, so it'd be normal that he'd be considered a dandy. ^^;
I disagree with you saying that Raoul is a dandy. It's not his fault he was born with a slightly feminine appearance, just like it's not my fault that I have bad eyes and brown hair. Some people might have considered him a dandy, but just because he grooms himself and wears nice clothes doesn't, IMO, make him a dandy. I know a lot of guys who comb their hair and wear nice clothes, and they're still as guy-guy as could be.Quote:
Originally Posted by RDraconis
Yes, the description doesn't fit Erik EXACTLY, but it fits him more than Raoul.
that is not true! Christine DID love Raoul. Because Christine asked Raoul to say, "Say you love me..." Why would she ask a person she doesn't love to say "I love you" to her? Is she a psych?(pardon my spelling), no! She might have been loved them both, but she still loved Raoul more. I think Christine should have been with Erik too, but she just doesn't love him that much. She loves Erik, but not in the same way as Erik loves her. She admires Erik, but she doesn't want to take Erik as her husband!
Uh...I was agreeing with you about that...Quote:
Originally Posted by emilysweety
I'm trying to tell some less educated people that Christine loved Raoul. What's not true?
Raoul loved Christine, okay? Remember "All I ask of you"??
Raou-"No more talk of darkness, forget these wide eyed fears. I'm here, nothing can harm you, my words will warm and calm you. Let me be your freedom, let daylight dry your tears. I'm here, with you, beside you, to guard you and to guide you..."
Plus, if he didn't love Christine, why would he risk his life to save Christine in the Phantom's vault?? If the whold thing was like what you said, then the whole thing in the book, musical, movie didn't even make sense. I understand the feeling of yours for Erik, but you can't change the fact that Raoul and Christine fell in love.
What the HECK are you talking about?? If you read my earlier posts you would see that I am defending Raoul and Christine!! I was AGREEING with you about Raoul's love!Quote:
Originally Posted by emilysweety
I think that Raoul truly did love Christine. (I'm not the biggest Raoul fan.) Why else would he have risked his life to save her from the Phantom/Erik several times? No, I don't think that Christine was confused.
P.G.7.
Christine loved Raoul- without a doubt. I haven't seen a version that suggested she didn't.
Raoul loved Christine- now there's some iffyness. In the book, yes. Without a doubt.
In the musical/'04 movie? Eh heh... no. In the book, he sought her out even before she became famous. In the '04 movie, he didn't spare her a glance until she was famous and worthy of him. He doesn't listen to her or respect her.
I think he liked her, and definitely liked the idea of having a famous girlfriend who everyone adored. Maybe he grew to love her, but I don't think he did at first. She seemed more like a piece of pretty to have on his arm than a partner. He wants to protect her, but that might be more a bit of an ingrained sense of chivalry than actual love. He didn't take Erik seriously- if he did he would've taken better precautions than talking about it in the @^@$^ Opera House. I don't think he realized he would be risking his life.
And if he did- he would've kept his damn hand at the level of his eyes rather than walking in and letting Erik grab a rope and walk over to him like that. >_<
I am curious. Why do you think Erik "deserves" to be loved?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomLover2