Christine had to have loved Erik.

Erik is the most haunting, painfully real character I've read of in years. Leroux was able to capture the very essence of complete and absolute isolation in this novel. Christine loved Erik. She was fascinated by his genius, his brilliance and his passion. It was not until later that she feared him, and even then, I think it was his appearance she feared. Erik loved her completely. He was obsessively devoted to her in a way Raoul could never be. I understand why Christine left Erik. He was after all, criminally insane. But she had stayed with him because, on some level, she was attracted by the fantasy of the musical genius living on the shores of the lake beneath the Opera Populaire. Kissing Erik after he had sacrificed his only desire - to love and be loved for himself - demonstrated that Christine was attracted to him. Perhaps staying would have been a mistake, but worse matches are made everyday. I would have stayed with Erik; Raoul annoys me.

My heart tells me that she had to love him so strongly that I am in the process of writing and publishing a phanfiction. Anyone interested in my OCPD (obsessive compulsive phantom dissorder) can check out my website www.phantomlove.com. This site has book updates, a brief history of why I wrote it (how emphatically I feel that Erik and Christine should be together) and book summary.... call me a hopeless romantic!!!

Christine did not love Erik. If you read thouroughly you would understand that who she loved was the Angel of the Music, which is why she cried when Erik revealed himself. She cried because it was all a lie. In return she lied to him. She pretended to love him, to be unafraid and said (in Leroux's words) "Drove him mad...with love!" she pretended to love him which is why so much conflict arose.

Also, she and Erik did not kiss. She let Erik kiss her forehead. Their lips never met. Never. Unless it is the French version...in which Erik rapes Christine. (No lie. He did!)

Erik did not love Christine either. He lusted for her, which is why he let her go. He let HER go because he knew that he could never love her like Raoul could, that he could only subject her to his lust and she would never be happy.

He mistook lust and a love a father has for a daughter (and in soem occasions a son to a mother) as romance, and it showed. Christine was a deceptive little snake in tricking Erik and in the end she got what she deserved:

The fop. :sick:

I agree with the Christine bashing wholeheartedly! AND.. I understand everything you are saying. I have read the book... 9 times to be exact, and several versions. I have yet to come across one that has Erik rape Christine. I just find it hard to believe that if she was as terrified of Erik as she claimed to Raoul (and we all know Christine couldn't be honest to save her life... she returned to him more than once. She and Raoul could have simply left Paris when he suggested or sooner. Her actions were not that of someone who hated another, Raoul even saw through her hidden emotions. She let Erik kiss her forehead but she also kissed his. She didn't have to be nice to him, to go back to him, or allow him to cry in her arms... but she did. I am a hopeless romantic and like to give the underdog the edge. I am so thankful that so many other romantics have been able to read between the wonderful lines that Gaston left for us as well. I will certainly look for the version that you spoke of though I have never heard anyone mention it before, and you would think that it would be more widely discussed.

(a) Le Fantome de l'Opera IS a French novel. Not surprising, seeing as it's set in the Paris Opera House? There is therefore no "French version" as such.

(b) There is NO rape scene in this novel. Certainly not in Gaston Leroux's novel. Or should I say...French version?

(c) What is the difference between "she was attracted by the fantasy of the musical genius living on the shores of the lake beneath the Opera Populaire" and "she loved was the Angel of the Music, which is why she cried when Erik revealed himself. She cried because it was all a lie. "? We've come to a mutual decision that she DID love him, as a figure at the very least. So why the problem?

(d) I can only hope that my comments have been as patronising as yours, though they'll probably be far less enlightening. Truly fascinated to hear about this rape scene. Top stuff. :cool:

1)The Phantom was such a nice person and he respected Christine a lot.
He did not rape her.
When Christine faints in Phantom's arms, he gently lays her on the bed and goes to play the piano and does not take advantage of her when she is asleep, this act shows how decent he was to Christine.

2) The Phantom is not a very violent person. Right since his childhood he was abandoned and illtreated by people because of his disfigurement, all he got was hatred and no love.
So when he saw Christine he just longed to be loved and cared for and he was ready to do anything to get that love.

3)Christine did love the Phantom but I still wonder why she didn't marry him, maybe because she thought that society would criticise her for marrying a facially disfigured man.

4)The Phantom loved Christine so much that he considered Christine's happiness was his happiness and so I think this is the reason he let her go with Raol.

If this is a true story, I should say that being an Indian I believe in Karma (the rebirth of the soul after death), I just pray for the phantom that in his next karma(rebirth) he should meet Christine in her next karma and marry her.

I also wonder if Erik, the house on the lake and Don Juan Triumphant really existed, or was it just an 'advertising gimmick' from Leroux...But if he was a real person, why did he smell of death, was as thin as a skeleton and had yellow eyes? Symptoms of a disease or such?
Anyway, I also think that Christine should have married him, because Raoul was not sympathetic to me...quoting Phantomess he was a fod, indeed.

I would have married Erik is I was Christine for TWO reasons:
1) I like a boy named ERIC
2)Erik was so much sexier than Raoul, he's the Phantom of the Opera!! Although he's ugly, but he still got a good heart.

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Originally Posted by emilysweety

I would have married Erik is I was Christine for TWO reasons:
1) I like a boy named ERIC
2)Erik was so much sexier than Raoul, he's the Phantom of the Opera!! Although he's ugly, but he still got a good heart.

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o.O

Wow...I'm sure EriC and EriK are the same! Does Eric have a mask, too? If he does, hook me on up! *rolls eyes*

About two. On all of the posts I haven't been able to stop myself from replying to, all of your opinions are based ENTIRELY off of the '04 movie. Have you even read the book or seen ANY other versions? And I'm sure a murderer has a good heart...yes...that's why they kill people...because their hearts are so good!

Look, in Leroux and Kay Erik goes to Persia and kills people for pleasure! He does drugs! He designs tortures for people! People were literally tortured to death because of him! He does let Christine go but one of the reasons in Kay is because he's so near to dying and is terrified of Christine - "his child" - being alone. If he wasn't so old I seriously doubt that he would have let her go.

Now...does Erik still have a good heart?

Eric does not have a mask. To tell you the truth, I've only read the first 3 chapter of this book, plus, the end of the book, and I HAVEN'T seen the movie(I have heard about it). But I have seen the Broadway Musical. I like Michael's original Phantom(i didn't see his play, but I bought his CD), and i like Howard Mc.Gillin's Phantom also(I saw his play). I like the Phantom in the book also, I piti him. Christine was the only woman he's ever kissed, I know exactly how he feels, he feels nothing again.
I meant by Erik has a good heart because he loved Christine very much, but it's just that his way of loving Christine isn't moral. He kills people, that's true, I didn't say that was right, all i was saying is that he was supposed to be a good person, just because he's ugly, everyone denies him, despises him, made him what he was, a murderer. He was a genius! But just because he was deformed, every one hated him. If it was you, can you handle that pressure? I know i can't.

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Originally Posted by emilysweety

Eric does not have a mask. To tell you the truth, I've only read the first 3 chapter of this book, plus, the end of the book, and I HAVEN'T seen the movie(I have heard about it). But I have seen the Broadway Musical. I like Michael's original Phantom(i didn't see his play, but I bought his CD), and i like Howard Mc.Gillin's Phantom also(I saw his play). I like the Phantom in the book also, I piti him. Christine was the only woman he's ever kissed, I know exactly how he feels, he feels nothing again.
I meant by Erik has a good heart because he loved Christine very much, but it's just that his way of loving Christine isn't moral. He kills people, that's true, I didn't say that was right, all i was saying is that he was supposed to be a good person, just because he's ugly, everyone denies him, despises him, made him what he was, a murderer. He was a genius! But just because he was deformed, every one hated him. If it was you, can you handle that pressure? I know i can't.

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Are we even introduced to Erik in the first three chapters...?*is confused* I don't think so.

I really couldn't comprehend how Erik feels. I'm not deformed, I have people who love me, so, yeah...sorry, but I seriously doubt that you know how Erik's feeling.

I don't think people "made" him a murderer. He admits to an immense feeling of power when he killed people (in Kay, of course).

One more thing: being sexier than someone else doesn't make someone better than the other. And Erik was not sexier than Raoul, IMHO.

Personally, I always thought Christine was a little two-timer who, instead of doing the right thing of just breaking the news of not really in love, decides to pull Erik along like a cat with a piece of yarn and talk horribly behind his back. Sure, telling someone like Erik that she's not interested wouldn't be a wise idea, but all she had to do was not return to his house on the lake. Erik specifically told her not to return unless she loved him, all like the Persian's idea. What does she do? Come back.

I don't think Erik loved Christine in a "Oh you're my soul mate" kind of way, but more of an "I make sculptures of you on my spare time completely made of toothpicks" kind of way. Since he got to talk to Christine, as the Angel of Music, I think it gave him a taste of what it was like to have a woman admire him rather than be repulsed by his apperance (since even his own mother hated him) and it lead him on an obsession of wanting Christine. Yes, he was very kind to Christine during her stay at his house on the lake, but it's more of an issue of people being repulsed by him, the desire to be loved by someone, and the yerning to live a normal life that caused his obsession rather than being that "special someone" or, as the movies LOVE to portray, lust.

Raoul, even though I really didn't care for him, is probably the only decent one out of the love triangle. True, he's thinking with his balls most of the time, but it's the action you'd expect from his loved one telling him about this horrible person who won't let them be together.

Christine didn't love him at first, then she pitied him of his tragic life. And that is why Erik let Raoul and Christine fled. Poor, unhappy Erik, his entire life was just a tragic, and lonely story...

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Originally Posted by emilysweety

Christine didn't love him at first, then she pitied him of his tragic life. And that is why Erik let Raoul and Christine fled. Poor, unhappy Erik, his entire life was just a tragic, and lonely story...

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I think it's more of the realization that Christine would never love him as much as she did Raoul. And the way that she did Raoul. In the movie she was infatuated with him at first, but then as the movie progresses and she realizes all that Erik is, the infatuation dies to be replaced by some kind of horrendous fear.

Christine did love Erik but not the same way she loved Raoul. She loved Erik because he was her teacher, because he inspired her voice and because he loved her unconditionally. But she did not love him enough to want to stay, she stayed because she pitied him, because she knew of the pain he felt and so she stayed, until Raoul returned to her: then she wanted to leave him, but she was scared to because she knew how obsessively he cared for her and she knew that he would find her. She feared him because - lets face it, he was psycho. Because he had odd mood swings and she was not entirely sure of what he was capable of. She didnt want to stay with him because he was a psycho obsessive - what we call a stalker. I think that Erik was in love with Christine not in lust because if it had been pure lust he would not have treated her with the respect that he did. He let her go in the end not because he couldnt give her what Raoul could but because he knew she would never love him the way she did Raoul and so he knew she would be happier with him - he sacrificed his chance of happiness for hers. That's love not lust. Lust is selfish, love is selfless.

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Originally Posted by hunnybunny

Christine did love Erik but not the same way she loved Raoul. She loved Erik because he was her teacher, because he inspired her voice and because he loved her unconditionally. But she did not love him enough to want to stay, she stayed because she pitied him, because she knew of the pain he felt and so she stayed, until Raoul returned to her: then she wanted to leave him, but she was scared to because she knew how obsessively he cared for her and she knew that he would find her. She feared him because - lets face it, he was psycho. Because he had odd mood swings and she was not entirely sure of what he was capable of. She didnt want to stay with him because he was a psycho obsessive - what we call a stalker. I think that Erik was in love with Christine not in lust because if it had been pure lust he would not have treated her with the respect that he did. He let her go in the end not because he couldnt give her what Raoul could but because he knew she would never love him the way she did Raoul and so he knew she would be happier with him - he sacrificed his chance of happiness for hers. That's love not lust. Lust is selfish, love is selfless.

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I don't want to be the complete grouch here, but this last part...

"Love is selfless."

And yes, it was so selfless the way that Erik kidnapped her, that he dragged her around by her hair and abducted her during Faust. It was also very selfless of him to threaten to blow up the opera house if Christine didn't agree to marry him. Perhaps he mistook obsession for real, true love. I can't really see Leroux!Erik being totally in love with Christine. I think he thought he loved her. I mean, she was kind, gentle, undoubtedly attractive, and had a marvelous voice. So it was natural for Erik to think he loved her. However, I must say that considering the life that he led, it would be hard for him not to be unselfish. And in the end he finally releases them, giving up everything he had worked for. This is why Erik is such a fascinating character. Should we love him or hate him?

Also, the beginning of your post. "She loved Erik because he was her teacher..." I think it was more of a general admiration. You can't not admire someone like Erik for all his talents and accomplishments. Although, I do agree that before Erik revealed himself Christine might have been a bit infatuated with him.

I'm not trying to spark an argument. I just love debating about Erik. He is so twisted and a wonderful topic of discussion.

Although Erik was abusive towards Christine, doesn't mean he didn't love her. He may have had a little OCD when things didn't happen his way, but he did love Christine and Christine probably did love him, as her adult relationship. With Raoul, though, she loved him as a childhood friend. And Erik DID NOT rape Christine, Original Leroux novel, Translated novel, whatever, he didn't!. In the novel (Which is accepted by Leroux fans.), Phantom by Susan Kay, Erik thinks this:

I want her!
But I will not sink to the level of a mindless beast. Murderer, thief, unscrupulous extortionist, contemptible drug addict...this is the one crime I cannot commit. I can take nothing from her that is not given of her free and conscious will.

He didn't rape her, because he had self control over that. But in the end of the novel, Christine has a child that is Erik's. So if she didn't love him, why would she share that experience with him? That's my thoughts as a Phan and Phanfiction writer and thanks for listening.

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Originally Posted by AngelofPhantoms

Although Erik was abusive towards Christine, doesn't mean he didn't love her. He may have had a little OCD when things didn't happen his way, but he did love Christine and Christine probably did love him, as her adult relationship. With Raoul, though, she loved him as a childhood friend. And Erik DID NOT rape Christine, Original Leroux novel, Translated novel, whatever, he didn't!. In the novel (Which is accepted by Leroux fans.), Phantom by Susan Kay, Erik thinks this:

I want her!
But I will not sink to the level of a mindless beast. Murderer, thief, unscrupulous extortionist, contemptible drug addict...this is the one crime I cannot commit. I can take nothing from her that is not given of her free and conscious will.

He didn't rape her, because he had self control over that. But in the end of the novel, Christine has a child that is Erik's. So if she didn't love him, why would she share that experience with him? That's my thoughts as a Phan and Phanfiction writer and thanks for listening.

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Yes, if we want to get technical, we can point out the different versions, such as the '83 Christine (actually Maria) did not at all love Erik/Sandor, and how the '25 Christine was terrified of him, and how the '62 Christine pretty much wanted to die every time she was near Erik. I actually love the Kay version; it's the only one in which I think Christine and Erik should have ended up together, and the only version in which I have a small belief that Christine might have loved Erik. That's a very good point about them making love at the end.

And I never said Erik raped Christine. :confused: I'm quite positive. Although, it is quite unfair to say that Christine loved Raoul only as a childhood friend. No one knows the depth of her love; she's a fictional character. It probably wasn't as passionate as Erik's obsession and all, Raoul and Christine's love was still pure and true.

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Originally Posted by Wandering_Child

And I never said Erik raped Christine. :confused: I'm quite positive.

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I was not saying that you thought that Erik raped Christine, I meant to say that some people believe he did. Sorry if I miscommunicated.

I'm glad that you accept Kay's version. I think she might have been a Erik/Christine phan. Just a thought.

Christine, I find, was torn between what her heart yearned for and what she thought she needed. Her heart yearned to be met in music and it was Erik's call that completed that. Erik had the same passion and emotional depth, whereas Raoul was a bit wooden in his character. He seemed to show only what he thought appropriate. Christine seemed like she was caught between what society expected of her and what she truly wanted. In the end, I think that she convinced herself that Raoul was the one for her, only because it seemed the easiest path to take. Sure, with Erik, they would have had more than their share of hardships, but there was an unyielding spark between them that would have fully ignited, had Raoul not got in the way. Christine made her choice and, honestly, I would have regretted it, if I were her. The Phantom has a certain allure to him that, obviously, Christine found seductive or else, she would not have come so easily under his spell. Spells break and so did Erik's heart. Christine based her decision on her mind and not her heart and it makes me think that Christine did not deserve him.

I've read the novel about 6 or 7 times, and I don't think she really loved Erik. I think it was more pity because he was deformed. Doesn't she say in the novel, "Poor, unhappy Erik"? That's clearly pitying him! I think she was more terrifed of him. I think I would be terrified of a guy that is way beyond obsessed with me, looks and smells like a skeleton, and threatens to blow up the Opera House and/or kill the guy I love if I don't marry him!
There's my viewpoint.
P.G.7.

This is a fascinating discussion. People have made some good points. It seems to me that by the end of the story, Christine's feelings for the Phantom were conflicted, and despite her fear, part of her had truly come to love him.

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Originally Posted by Phantomess

Also, she and Erik did not kiss.

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They didn't kiss on the lips, but in Gaston LeRoux's novel, Erik does say, "Then Christine kissed me, for the first time, herself, here, on the forehead—don't look, daroga!" (Chapter XXVI, "The End of the Ghost's Love Story")