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"dark-clothed knitters of destiny " wow.. have you read greek mythology? Obvious allusion to the fates my friend....<br><br>About the women thing... I don't think the women in the novel were given power at all! Marlow talks about protecting women and not being able to tell them the truth for fear that they couldn't handlne it. I think you just wanted to annoy all the women in you class by bringing up that viewpoint...
I don't think that the women in the novel were meant to be seen as devilish. The references in the novel give the women a sense of innocence and ignorance. There is a notion of romanticism in that the men of this time were the explorers, the brave ones, ready to head out into the unknown. The women were more content to stay at home and hold up every aspect of the life built up so far, the fantasy world that they live in (the comfort). If they knew what the rest of the world had to offer, they would be frightened, "It's queer how out of touch with truth women are. They live in a world of their own, and there had never been anything like it, and never can be. It is too beautiful altogether, and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset." If they knew the true, harsh realities of the world outside of their own, that innocence would be lost. The beauty of how they view life would crumble before them and what structure would the men have to turn to?<br>That is where the image of the woman in the painting comes into play. She is blindfolded and carrying a lighted torch. She is a guide, yet cannot see for herself.<br>
I was thoroughly impressed with how you perceived "Heart of Darkness." I, too, have had noticed the role of women in Conrad's novel. However, due to a presentation on this book I have had to go into great detail about Conrad's view of women as revealed through the Aunt, and the Intended. It is for an AP class so I was hoping that maybe if you have any extra ideas to offer about these two women, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!
Howard, congratulations on tooting your own horn.
it's nice to know that when you die, you'll be thinking about social circumstances and prejudice towards genders... i think it's much more realistic that kurtz could be thinking about what is going to happen to him in issues of morality pertaining to his life. how can you substantiate your arguement pertaining to the rest of the novel? it would be possible if only women were described as weak, but just about everyone in the novel's weak, with the exception with the native woman that lifted her arms towards the end.
I think the women in conrad's piece are knowing collaborators in the dark business of exploitation, of the greed of the players/pilgrims and the indiginous peoples. <br><br>Your thoughts on the roles of women are interesting. I have just re-read your comments and suggest that women in general are knowing exploiters of the greed of men (sexuality) in order to further their relative position in their civilised society.<br><br>Do find the time to indertake your work - regards tony
Hey moron, its KurtZ not Kurt! Did you even read the book? You never got around to doing that project huh? You sound very motivated...you'll go far in life...
I like your comment very much, and find it rather appealing<br><br>Another thing that could back it up is at the very beginning, just as he's about to start his story, an allusion to the point not being the kernel of the story, but the outside of it. The women were very much on the outside. <br><br>Also, at the end of the story, as Kurtz's intended is going off on the wrong path about Kurtz, she seems to be 'swallowing' all the light.<br><br>Hm!<br><br>Nice perspective.
Being the only male in a literature class at Oranim affiliated to Haifa University, I ventured (to the horror of the female students and teacher) the idea that Conrad's seemingly clouded conception of the horror expressed by Kurt on his deathbed pertained not merely to the inward revelation achieved while the darker memories and visions of life flashed before him in his last moments, but alarmingly to the woman. Throughout the text allusions are made to the woman having some devilish super-natural power as seen by the dark-clothed knitters of destiny and the Jungle warrior set up rising up with the immagery of ghostly torch lit faces culminating in the final words of Kurt - transmitted by Marlow to his intended (woman) and equated with the horror - "your name" that of the intended.<br><br>I feel a sense of Conrad's helplessness as a man who realizes that the aim in life of reaching manhood and reproducing is self defeating where the torch or baton of light is passed on through the woman to leave the man once again after his moment of revelation in total blackness or on the down path to rot and decay while the seeds flow on and away.<br><br>Although the head of the English department at the University of Haifa wished to jointly develop my idea in a paper (He had been giving a series of lectures on "The Woman" as seen in Literature, I unfortunately never got around to doing it with him.<br><br>Maybe some other interested readers of the novel (unfortunately many seemed too bored and may not have connected with the essence of the man) will air their views on the subject so I can see if there is any simpathetic degree of sharing my views preferably by women readers.<br><br>All the best - Howard
Hi! I am so lost, i was actually suppose to read this book for engligh's ISU essay but didn't. So if you guys can help me thanks. I am writting my essay on the role of women in the novel and if there are any quotes that will support my essay topic, can you please email them to me at [email protected] with page number ASAP
Please and thank you
i would like for you to explain WHY anyone would help considering that you have not bothered to read the book
Well I assume you are pretty lost as you've posted this exact same message in 6 different threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by pink_panther
How about this quote (yeah, its in the book :lol: )
"Jimbo turned to his wife and said 'where the hell is my dinner'" in my book its on page 2222222, dunno 'bout yours
Wat the hell! don't be hating. i just asked for help :goof:
i am reading heart of darkness right now for my ap world lit class. i happen to have the dover thrift edition of the novel. the problem is that i cannot remember what pages some quotes are on. so if you could help me out (i have to write a 1000 - 1500 page essay) i would appriciate it but if you do not, whatever.
1.) "you know i hate, detest, and can't bear a lie..."
2.) "It's queer how out of touch with truth women are. They live in a world of their own, and there had never been anything like it, and never can be. It is too beautiful altogether, and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset."
so if you know the pages those are on and could tell me i would be greateful.
thanks so much.
semisweet07
-"till this moment, i never knew myself..."
oh and i almost forgot. well i would like some input about the women and their roles in the novel. i think that the men have created the innocence about the women on purpose. it's like the men have to have a safe place to come home to after conquering the "evil" of the Congo. so when marlow criticizes the women and their innocence, he is being a hypocrite. perhaps not on purpose though because he does not know better yet. but in the end when he lies to kurtz's Intended, then he is also creating and maintaining the innocence of the women in london. the women's lives are built upon lives. just a thought.
semisweet07
-"till this moment, i never knew myself..."
I see women in HoD as the repositories of male ideology.
However, I'd like to say firstly that, somehow judging Conrad for portraying females as innocent or ignorant people, is misguided. The historical context in which he wrote the novel must be taken into account. He could not have created a Sarah Palin type character (this text was written just after the 2008 election) as women like that didn't exist yet. Judging from the way he went against the grain in his day, if he were alive and writing today, I'm sure he would have championed women's rights.
Secondly, the setting and events of the novel were (and to some extent, still are, a male dominated one) and therefore he can be commended in that he found a way to include women characters at all. A 19th century naval captain sailing up the Congo river - where would I have put a woman into that kind of background? - probably as a cliched damsel in distress! That's why no one reads my books.
In order to answer why they are there, think about who they are. Who are the women in HoD? Obviously there are the old knitters, there is the Intended (interesting name, was it just coincidence that he named her that?), the savage woman, the woman in the portrait and the aunt. You can rest assured they are there for a reason and that reason is not as 'eye candy' or to humiliate the females of our species.
They all represent, in particular the Intended, the woman in the portrait and the savage beauty, the ideals of the men who fill the pages. That said, the women in HOD are most certainly superficial characters who do little to push the story forward. Yet I don't see them as being meant as 'individuals', they are meant to represent the ideals which are the driving force of the male characters' actions. I suppose you could say they are all metaphors.
The Intended is just that, the way things were intended to be. She represents fairness, civility, accountability etc. The way things are intended to be, but sadly aren't. Thus she must be protected and remain ignorant, or what's the point? Don't look at her as a woman, but as (sorry but I have to say it again), an ideal. That's why she is protected and kept ignorant. If she knows the way things really are, the ideal that we strive for falters. She represents, as an ideal not as a person, the reason why Marlow simply does not carry on where Kurtz stopped. If that which the female characters represent ceases to be, what then becomes the point of restraint? We may as well all of us start making human sacrifices on a whim.
As an alternative to understand this, watch Copolla's film Apocalypse Now. There is a scene where, amongst all the chaos of war in the jungle, three Playboy playmates are flown in to dance for the troops. What do these women represent? The same thing really. They represent America, freedom of expression etc. they represent 'back home', Sunday barbecues with your buddies talking baseball and pin-up girls whilst the wives are doing the dishes. The three playmates are not characters, they are the repositories of the ideals for which the troops are fighting and they too are kept ignorant about the realities of war. That's the way it has to be, it is what upholds the ideal. It doesn't matter if that ideal is comendable, fact is it exists. If what those women mean ceases to exist, why would those young soldiers give their lives in battle next day?
"They live in a world of their own, and there had never been anything like it, and never can be. It is too beautiful altogether and if they were to set it up it would go to pieces before the first sunset."
Apply this quote, not to women but to ideologies and idealists. Apply it to Marxist Communism on paper (a beautiful dream) and then the Russian reality that Stalin set up. Apply it to the American Dream, where everyone can win, but having a winner necessarily sets up the existence of a loser. Ideologies are all beautiful and all go to pieces when the dark heart of man touches them.
Notice in the film that the three playmates are also protected - they perform on some kind of wharf or jetty where neither the troops can get to them, nor they the troops. Imagine if they were to come into contact with the reality of the soldiers' lives, maybe 'servicing' them as prostitutes. The illusion of an 'ideal back home' would be shattered. The men would be raping their own ideal and consequently their reason for dying in the jungle. The base instincts of the soldiers watching the show proves to be just that, to rape and possess (as was the base instinct of the colonisers with regards to Africa as a continent), but for the structure to remain in place, the women must remain aloof, untouchable and distant.
And there you have the lie that is 'hated' and 'detested'.
Notice also that they, the playmates, seem ignorant as to the reality of war, the darker actions man is capable of. When the soldiers start jumping in the water, swimming across to them, they seem confused and don't know how to react. They are ignorant of this dark reality, and must remain so.
That is how I see women in HoD. The repositories of male ideals. Ideals which cannot by definition, be a day to day reality, they have to be as real and yet as untouchable as dreams.
So although the Intended and the Playmates are the repositories of different ideals created in different eras, their function in the respective narratives is very similar.
With over a hundred (or close to forty) years' retrospective hindsight, we could say both the book and the film portray women in a chauvenistic way. And by today's standards that is true. However, we could also say that they were not really meant to be characters portraying or representing the female species. Instead they represent something men strive after, something which is part of their world but is not OF them, something which by definition, they can never truly possess. That could be said both of ideals and (from the point of view of a heterosexual male) women.
Sorry if I babbled on, this is my first post. Sorry also that I digressed a little and dribbled on about the film. Just seemed an easier way to make my point.