according to the last verses of John Gospel, the beloved disciple (which he seems to indicate is himself) 'tarries' until Jesus comes. Peter is made well aware of this point.
The question is raised therefore: is John still waiting around somewhere?
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according to the last verses of John Gospel, the beloved disciple (which he seems to indicate is himself) 'tarries' until Jesus comes. Peter is made well aware of this point.
The question is raised therefore: is John still waiting around somewhere?
in which case he'd be like what? nearly 2,000 years old?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike thomas
let's assume he's still around, would it make any difference?
no offense, I don't want to fight with you or anything... let's assume Jesus was still around. would it make any difference? do you think he could have the same impact he had 2,000 years ago?
what if Jesus was still alive/ back again? people would probably think he's a nutter, imposter or cult leader, wouldn't they?
Let's look at those verses, Sleepy:
St. John 21:
[20] Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
[21] Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
[22] Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
[23] Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Notice the one I highlighted? Jesus did not say John would not die. He was telling Peter to mind his own business.
God Bless
Pen
thanks Uncle Pen :)
cheers pen old chap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
i had read the whole gospel. The point is this:
'If I will that he tarry till I come,' means one thing only; whoever it is that tarries, waits until Jesus comes. If the so-called 'second coming' is yet to come, then it must follow that the disciple is still waiting. So, where is he?
muchius regardum
m t
Hi Mike. You think I haven't read the whole Gospel? I have, in many different translations. I've read the entire Bible in many translations. That "tarry" implies "wait", I do not dispute. You are missing John own words:Quote:
Originally Posted by mike thomas
[23] Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? KJV
[23] The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" RSV
I really fail to see how that can get any plainer.
John said himself that Jesus did not tell him he would not die. Check the writing of Irenaeus of Lyons, a disciple if Polycap, himself a disciple of St. John. John died.
Hi Pen
thanks for the reply.
I know John makes it plain that he will die, the question remains: is he still alive?
If John is not alive, Jesus has already come. How plain can that be?
Best regards
Mike T
You can certainly read it that way. But it is amazing how much a two letter word can change things. In this case that word is "if". I don't know if you have kids Mike, but you certainly have been one. Maybe your dad has said something along this line: "Mike, now we'll go fishing tomorrow if I don't have to work." You are ready to go. To you, Dad made a promise. Next morning you are downstairs with your pole to see Dad walking out the door. "We were going fishing, Dad!" "Sorry, son, I told you I might have to work."Quote:
Originally Posted by mike thomas
Jesus said, "If I will that he tarry until I come..." He did not say "It is my will that he tarry until I come..." One would require John to either still be alive or Jesus to have come. That would be the second statement. The first is conditional on if that was the will of Jesus, or if He was merely telling Peter that he didn't need to know everything. John's death is a matter of record in the writing of Irenaeus. Has Jesus came and gone? I must admit there are times that it certainly seems that way. But no, I don't believe He has.
Think about it, that's all anybody could ask.
God Bless
Pen
What about Matthew 16:28 "I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Didnt the romans not see him this way back then as well?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
I dont think John is still alive, its not humanly possible. Maybe when he died his spirit remained on earth and he is doomed to wander the known earth until the end, who knows! But still alive? Not a chance!
Next chapter, Wiff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
Matt.17
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
[3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
[4] Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
[6] And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
[7] And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
[8] And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
[10] And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
[11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
[12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
That was just six days later, and they saw Him as He was to be. This satisfies me, yet others may make their own decisions. I am not here to say you must believe it like this. I present a possibility.
God Bless
Pen
hello there Pen
Yes I do think about it.
In one thread I asked these two questions
'what if Christ left a personal sign for mankind?'
and
'If such a sign was found, what would be the reaction of believers?'
None of these questions posed any conditions'.
But according to you, your own reply, which included the lines:
' Perhaps we are not meant to look for signs. Most of us, if we would be truly
honest, find it difficult enough to simply try to "love thy neighbor as thyself." '
'if we would be truly honest' should be interpreted as:
'we should be (conditionally) truly honest'.
Why bring in Irenus? Perhaps I should quote Pythagoras?
What I'm trying to say is that the words in John' Gospel - according to John -
makes it seem that John might still be alive after 2000 years.
You and I have brains which reason thus: it is impossible, by any known
standard, for a human to remain breathing for 2000 years.
Sleepy Witch (Exodus 22:18?) saw that one - and yes Sleepy, Christians today
would never accept it even if John was alive. In fact, even if Jesus were to
suddenly appear, perhaps as an old down and out, no Christian would accept it.
That's human nature.
But the question remains: according to Jesus' statement in John's Gospel - I
will state the question in four crystal clear words - is john still waiting?
best regards
Fair enough mon ami. Yes, John is still waiting. The question is: where? He is dead, that is certain. So where is he waiting?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike thomas
I Thes. 4:
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
He is asleep in Christ, awaiting His return. And he will not miss it at all. Feel free to accept or reject this explanition. I have said before, I don't try to force everyone to believe as I do. As you have said, we can make up our own minds.
God Bless
Pen
Pen: "Next chapter, Wiff."
That's neat, although "shall not taste of death until" is a somewhat convoluted way of saying "in less than a week."
But, your interpretation makes the earlier words literally true, in a not obvious way, which means they were spoken in Standard Oracle Mode. It works for me.
.
Is it not possible that Christ was referring to visions of His return? It seems quite clear, from other NT books, that prophecy was not unknown among the early church. In one of the books of John (not the gospel, numbers 1-3), there is much discussion of the "man of lawlessness" who is to come. That sounds like prophecy. Is it possible that John had a vision of the Return?