1984 - Discussion on its symbols & its relation to Nazism, Stalinism, and Ingsoc?

These are two main discussion topics I thought might be interesting. Feel free to add any others that may be related:

Symbols

Some symbolic concepts/objects I thought we could discuss:

1. The Brotherhood & Goldstein's book
2. Fragile Glass Paperweight
3. Winston's Diary
4. Relationship between Winston & Julia
5. Newspeak
6. Ingsoc

Relation to Nazism and Stalinism

I was reading a Foreward for Brave New World which happened to describe the differences between the two books as:

"He [George Orwell] was writing about the forbidding, part-alien experience of Nazism and Stalinism, whereas Huxley was locating disgust and menace in the very things - the new toys of materialism, from cars to contraceptives - that were becoming everyday pursuits."

When I read this I had to pause and wonder about for a bit before I could see a connection. What I noticed is that 1984 focuses on a world whose people are faced with a system of totalitarianism - it fails to provide for its citizens (the inner and outer party members, etc.). However, is that the only link? If so, then what role does the proles play in this novel?

Further, how does the Eastasia-Eurasia-Oceania conflict come into the picture? We realize that they're warring for the sole purpose of draining resources since they believe that people leading a luxurious life will revolt, so is this just another form of oppression?

Lastly, but most importantly, how is the concept of Ingsoc incorporated into the book, and what is Orwell trying to tell us in the end?

Okay, here's what I think about the numbered items.

1. The Brotherhood and Goldstein are both non-existent. They were invented by Ingsoc for the purpose of Hates and to flush out thought criminals. This is evidenced by the fact that O'Brien is the only supposed Brotherhood member we ever meet, and he really works for Big Brother. Also, everything that sets Winston free is really an instrument of Big Brother. The diary, the room, O'Brien, were all ostensibly routes to freedom, but they were really just planted there by the Party. The only exception is Julia, but unfortunately even love can be used to serve the Party as is evidenced by room 101 and the ending of the novel.

2. The shattering of the paperweight is like the shattering of the past or one's ego. Winston proclaims how fragile the coral had always been, and it really is. He compares the paperweight to the special world in which he's free, namely inside his mind. But in the end it's shattered during his arrest the same way his mind would be shattered in the following chapters.

3. His diary helps explain who he is. It's like his brain revealed to the reader. His brain contains all of this stuff that the past and present will never know, and his thoughts are as out of date as the book he writes in.

4. They were in love. She is sort of his opposite in that she thinks only about herself and how the Party hurts her, whereas Winston also ponders deeper implications of doublethink, etc. I think she's there to balance it out, cuz just hearing Winston's views on it would be too moralistic, and her views are more practical.

5. Newspeak is a tool for thought control. It emphasizes how important language, literature, etc. is to our thoughts, which might be something Orwell took from philosophers such as Wittgenstein, or not.

6. Ingsoc is the Party. One could speculate its connections to real life socialism and communism, that's about it.

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The shattering of the paperweight is like the shattering of the past or one's ego. Winston proclaims how fragile the coral had always been, and it really is. He compares the paperweight to the special world in which he's free, namely inside his mind. But in the end it's shattered during his arrest the same way his mind would be shattered in the following chapters.

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Interesting, i always saw it as a less individualistic symbol and more a foreshadowing of the hope Winston had in society, particulary the "prolls". Especially since they had trusted the guy who owned the shop, and their trust was then shattered too.

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3. His diary helps explain who he is. It's like his brain revealed to the reader. His brain contains all of this stuff that the past and present will never know, and his thoughts are as out of date as the book he writes in.

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I saw it more as an example of the beauty of free speech.

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5. Newspeak is a tool for thought control. It emphasizes how important language, literature, etc. is to our thoughts, which might be something Orwell took from philosophers such as Wittgenstein, or not.

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Kinda like today and Net-speak and texting,huh?

:idea: see i may be wrong but i also thought the shattering of the paperweight symbolized there comfort they dont have and there privacy the really dont have either and them always being together which doesnt happen either do u agree? can u see where im coming from? i guess it can symbolize many things because they thought they were in comfort and privacy and they didnt think they were gonna get caught this way and they didnt know it was all a setup at all. and the paperweight was all that "emotion" of security then it shattered and it just happens after the paperweight shattered they had gotten "caught" so i guess you could also say it didnt symbolizes their security only the thinking of their security. because they were always caught they just didnt know it.

Here's my opinion of the subjects (if you want it, lol) *deep breath*:

1: In my opinion, whether the Brotherhood and Goldstein actually exist does not really matter, it merely matters that people belive that they do and that the Party manipulates this in order to, as others have said, create this culture of hate and fear and expose thoughtcriminals.

2: In additition to the paperweight representing the trust of the old man in the shop and Winston's internal wold, it also represents the indipendant relationship between Julia and Winston which is "shattered" by the inrusion of the Thought Police.

3: Winson's diary is simply a result of the state-inforced repression which forces people to "bottle everything up"- so Winston seeks a form of intellectual and emotional expression indipendant of the Party.

4: The relationship between Julia and Winston is connected with the above, but is also about a desire to live in a world where there is something more than hate and fear.

5: Newspeak is just what others have said, it is a method of controlling people's thoughts so that there will not be any opposition to the Party's authority, even in thought. If there are no words to use to describe a revolution, how can there be one? It is also more broadly to examine the importance of clear and accurate communication.

6: It is very easy to dismiss the Ingsoc of 1984 as an extention of socialism in general. However, this was never Orwell's intention- he was, after all, a socialist himself. The Ingsoc of 1984 is more about the totalitarian "socialism" of Stalin's Russia which was actually about getting away from the principles of socialism, in the name of socialism. Ingsoc is a British version of the Communist Party of Russia and an extention of some of those on the Left in Britain who were baisically apologists for Stalin.

Phew, that took too long, I've got work to do. Hope this helps!:thumbs_up

has neone read the book night by elie wiesel???????????
about his experience in the holocaust???????
well i know its not in relation with this book exactly...............but im doin a presentation where winston reads the book night and talks to julia about it(in the big open field............)
i was wonderin if i could get help in analysing the change in his character...............
pls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“A glass paperweight especially seems to Winston in its beauty and fragility to symbolize his and Julia’s lives forever within itself.” The shattering of the paperweight is a representation of the destruction of Winston and Julia’s uniqueness. Although Winston and Julia were able to think in a way different from everyone else, this ability was fragile and easily broken.

i still need help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the presentations in 2 weeks....................
can sumone help me analyse the character of winston????????????????
n julia while were at it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Big Brother, the Brotherhood, Goldstein do exist. First we have to define what exists and I guess it comes down if a tree falls in the woods and no one is left to hear it - does it make a sound? O'Brien tells Winston that he can levitate (I think ...); when Winston realises that 2+2=5 he can also realise that O'Brien can levitate, and as both of them believe in it it becomes true. Also in a way it doesn't matter whether the parties actually exists, if the people believe in them and act on them (God for example; no proof that he exists but thousands of things have been commited in his name) that they start to exist ...

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ok so i have a report due like on mondayy so i need helpp!
ok my main question is at the end of the book, is WInston's ephiny (i think thats how its spelled:P) the bullet? or was there ever actually going to be a read literal bullet? im kinda confused about that. also is BB real? or is he a symbol for the people to praise, and work tward aspiring to? and the brothehood? is it real or just a ploy to find out who really wants to go against the party? if anyone could anwser i would be soooo grateful!;)

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Originally Posted by canadainchic

also is BB real? or is he a symbol for the people to praise, and work tward aspiring to? and the brothehood? is it real or just a ploy to find out who really wants to go against the party? if anyone could anwser i would be soooo grateful!;)

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There is no Big Brother actually, only The Brotherhood. Big Brother never gets old nobody ever sees him, etc. There is only a Brotherhood, which runs their lives and whole society, Big Brother is just personalization of Brotherhood. I think it was because it's always easier for people to love one person, actually a symbol of something. I've read somewhere: ''Give people something to hate, and they will be quite...'' It was the same with Big Brother, but it was an opposite feeling, love instead of hate.