I hate when people call books like Oliver Twist anti-semitic

There are Jewish criminals, and they tend to be in crime movies and books a lot, so what is wrong with showing a character, who is a villian, to be a Jew? I hate the anti-semitism complainers. Semites just like all other races have the right to be potrayed as villians. It's horrible. What if I want a Jew to be the villian? That could be awesome. So many modern crime movies have Jew characters and they're all awesome, so what is wrong with classic literature doing it. Back in the day, many Jews were as criminal as the Sicilians and Irish.

I think the complaint in Dickens's case, at least in terms of literary theory, is that it is far too easy to kick someone already in the mud, so to speak, so it is really a cheap device for Dickens to use a Jewish character in the role. You would, at least, then expect it to be a more complex character (cf. Shakespeare's portrayal of Shylock), which it does not develop into.

At the end of his life Dickens reacted to the criticism he received for his portrayal of the Jewish character in Oliver Twist through his writing in Our Mutual Friend, which, it has been argued, to a large extent deals with the question of identity and the way you are being seen by the others. Perhaps he himself came to realise that he had fallen victim to the social prejudices in his early novel, and that it had as a result affected the quality of his own work. I cannot, of course, offer any physical evidence for this, other than the hazy memory of Dickens starting to write Our Mutual Friend after receiving a letter from a reader saying that while she loved all of his novels, Oliver Twist had always troubled her considerably due to his portrayal of the Jewish people. But this is just a hazy memory, and I am far from being a Dickens expert.

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Semites just like all other races have the right to be potrayed as villians. It's horrible. What if I want a Jew to be the villian? That could be awesome. So many modern crime movies have Jew characters and they're all awesome...

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You make it sound as if it's a privilege and "awesome" to be a villain.

That's one thing I like about those kinds of scenes in literature: it depicts the attitude and mentality of times past.

I agree with your point. Political Correctness is the disease of the times.

The thing is though that when people portray Italians as criminals, most know it's just for fun, while when Jews are portrayed, people tend to object.

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Originally Posted by Jtolj

The thing is though that when people portray Italians as criminals, most know it's just for fun, while when Jews are portrayed, people tend to object.

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I would imagine that this is for rather clear historical reasons. I don't recall anyone targetting Italians on the scale Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. Hence, anyone familiar even with some rather recent history is able to draw parallels. I suppose that it is not an issue of what you mean, but rather what you could be taken to mean.

An additional explanation, of course, is probably that Jews are politically and economically a relatively powerful group of people despite of their rather small number. This, in fact, can at least in parts be seen as deriving from the way they were persecuted throughout history, not only by making them stick together tighter, but also economically. For example, one might argue that because of the economic restrictions imposed on them and denying them the rights for a lot of economic activity and land ownership, the only professions they could take were moneylending and certain trade businesses. Which, I suppose, would then explain why they ended up having large trading networks and accumulating wealth. And wealth, in today's democratic world, of course rather directly also seems to give you a say over matters.

Or so I would suggest.

I think vili hit it right on the nose.

I'm half-Jewish myself and it bothers me to see stuff like Fagin in classic literature. And I know it annoys my dad. There's nothing to mean that Jews can't become criminals, but neither were they responsible for every social or economic disaster that befell Europe as often they were held to be. Such prejudices were what Dickens and other authors based characters like Fagin on. The act of writing a Jew as a criminal is not wrong in itself; I have no problem with that. What upset me was their purpose for doing so. And to disregard that in favor of supporting "equality" seems to me to be missing the point.

I'm Jewish too, and I didn't think Fagin was seen as the cause of the world's ills. I thought the book contained non-criminal Jews.. Also, he was my favorite character and the most sympathetic.

I just love Charles Dickens work generally and i dont think that i can judge him as a writer ( because i dont have the talent to be a writer) I think that you can judge a proffesional in his work only if you have teh same proffesion. For example, i am a lawyer and i accept critic in my work only by my colleagues. Anyway, i have read Oliver Twist and i have to say that the character of Fagin is the only one Jew who is criminal. All the other members of the clan are Christians ( as i can understand) and if we think about it the murderer of Nancy ( the girl who was helping Oliver) is the worst character in this book and not Fagin. I dont think that Dickens intension was to blame Jews, only because he gave this religion to one of his characters.

Can i ask something? If the character of Fagin was Greek or Italian , would we had this question here?

Evi

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Originally Posted by Evi

I just love Charles Dickens work generally and i dont think that i can judge him as a writer

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You just did. It's a very common misconception people have that one needs to be as proficient in something to critique another person's work, but the recipient of a service (in this case the reader) has every right to judge. If you have a favorite author, favorite movie, favorite music, or favorite anything, you've made a judgement.

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Can i ask something? If the character of Fagin was Greek or Italian , would we had this question here?

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Italian maybe. The complaint comes up fairly often when dealing with movies depicting sterotypical Italian Mafia families.

we are a world of stereotypes. it sucks, but it is what it is. i think any good writer would not succumb to direct stereotyping because that it pretty cheap. but anti semitism is a hard case to deal with because of the jewish history (:) to vili). depicting a jew as a criminal is fine in a work of literature, because it is the freedom of the author to do so. At the same time, you have to understand that in the Jewish community any extra blow, however small or large it is, is dangerous and puts them into an even more precarious position. Any slight TV news story or such that undermines the Jewish community is automatically used against them these days, just like a work of literature was able to affect the views of so many people then and now. But most of it is really due to the times--I mean what writers of the 20th century, pre WWII, were not anti semitic. Cummings, Eliot, etc. they were great writers but all anti-semites. Just like people who believed the world was flat and the universe rotated around the earth. Anyway, I think this rant had a point but now I'm not too sure. I'm half-Jewish, and Dickens is still one of my favorite writers.

People are hardly anti-semitic, anyway, many Jews have renounced the Judiasm and become independants (like me).

:idea:There is a similarity between Fagin and skies when it comes to dickens referring to them. Dickens calls skies robber throughout the novel and even murderer towards the novels end. Hence, I must be led to the conclusion that its just the way Dickens writes not racism. We must remember, despite the novels ground breaking style and form, the novel plays on a lot of stereotypes and melodrama, which is common of English literature of the period. If the holocaust happened before dickens wrote the novel, with the true face of racism exposed, then I’m sure dickens would of never described Fagin as The Jew.

i have two point about this, i agree with the point that those books are not antismetic .

i think in general ,author 's writing always represent the mentality of the age and socity in that time ,yes i think mention someone relgion and add it to charcter hurt ,but i don't think charles meant to give it that way of antismesatic person but i feel it was tjat wrong view of time beside of adding more drama to the story ,like show various detalis or colores from that socity,
i must say that when shakspear mentined shaylok as jewish ,someone easily can have bad impression about the poeple of that relgion but coming back to the mentality of the age ,it shows quit good view about all thoughts in that age ,,and author who was from that age in my view was like mirror who reflect the life and thoughts of people that time,now i don't think that is right and i don't think mention ones relgion is good point in novel nor it can make it better because technicaly people would think all people are truly like that but as i said again,it was the one of many negative menaltiy happened in socity , ,perosnally i didn't see fagin as the hatefull personality as monk and sikgi who killed nancy ,but in general ,i find charles' work are quit intreseting and so worthy to be read ,and in my view i think librar'es should't ban books but probably lighten the alttiude of someone's relgions because when you read this story i don't think fagin relgion is really the point in this story among all those poor life those poeple who lived it in dark wit those children .

It's easy to point the finger at a 1837 book and condemn it. I think one should place it within its time context. Back then, it was not something anyone would take immediate notice of. In books of Poe, for example, you can also find negative references to black characters, but it's best to take it with a pinch of salt and laugh at it, rather than turning the issue into a politically correct dramabomb. By the bye, I don't find the portrayal of Fagin anti-semetic, it's just that his looks might be a bit prejudiced, but it didn't disturb me (in fact, I rather liked Fagin), as the main point of the book is still a brilliant one.

Well according to my edition of Oliver Twist Fagin was based on a real life Jewish fence called Ikey Solomons