Why does a good God promote suffering?

Isn't indentation a beautiful thing?

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Yes this is proof to a person inclined to believe in God in the first place, but hardly an argument that a staunch atheist or agnostic would accept.


God bless

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can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

besides that it seems u r intended to end our conversation. coz besides argument i asked some question from you like in which u said " i am informed that its hard to prove God etc ...


can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ? :)

God bless u

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ?

besides that it seems u r intended to end our conversation. coz besides argument i asked some question from you like in which u said " i am informed that its hard to prove God etc ...


can u please write that argument which u read.. its a single line argument ? :)

God bless u

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The argument is, as I understand it, that there is a very obvious DESIGN to the way the universe is ordered, and that the concept of a design requires a designer, therefore God must exist.

An Atheist would argue that what seems to be intelligent design is merely evolution at work, so why would it be necessary for God to exist.
That is what a believer in God would call proof.

As to my statement, you misquote me. I said: "I am reliably informed that it is pretty much impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there are problems there as well." This has nothing to do with proving God exists, I state that it is hard to prove that ANYTHING does not or cannot exist. You can call something unlikely, but proving it to not exist is problematical.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot for further details.

God bless

Pen

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

I see the same issue across such a wide range of topics. Someone asked if they could be Christian and Buddhist, Hebrew Torah Creationism vs assorted evolution where no human groups currently evolve; that only happens to animals. I notice that people stop. Stop is the word for it. It is that whole point at the moon, then admire your finger not the moon. I never hear anyone say they will grow old - all humans die - so grow old and officially be THE old wise human. People lose concern about being human. People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love. The need for a name comes from seeking social position. Like philosophy: people know about the philosophers who fought long and hard for FAME and a stage. They never consider the ones who don't want to talk to them. Always the conflict, the 'team sport', everyone is on a team. The internet atheist team, the whatever team. Just asking about God is a sign something is wrong. To me it sounds like someone saying, they have doubt in their team, in their religion, that told them to love their children. If you needed a reason to love your children, you are in a state of failure. If you need a reason to love your world, your dog, your fellow man, you are diseased. If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life. The worst thing that happened to so many promising people was their idea that everyone was like them, so they had to make a team sport out of it. If only more people could lead and not follow. I struggle to understand why I would care if God was real. It would not change a single thing in my life. I don't ACT human. It is who I am. I will be that. While everyone else wants to have their team win, I just want to get away from everyone trapped in that mistake. I'd rather people were evil than acted good. At least their evil wouldn't be a lie.

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no human groups currently evolve; that only happens to animals.

I'm no scientist, but I don't think this is correct. Evolution takes millions of years, not the amount of time modern humans have been around.

Change is taking place as well. We are bigger, faster and stronger these days, though this is no doubt due to environmental adaptation. As I said, I'm no scientist, and so I 'm not sure about the relationship of the two - but stop humans have not.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love.

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Love and godness are unfortunately not things that arise in completion in humans. It takes development.

I can't really speak for Christians, but a Buddhist needs to progress along the path to become a better person embodying love and compassion. The teachings form part of this. If such positive traits were a naturally occurring phenomena, then there would be no need for the teachings, but clearly, like every phase of history, love and compassion are all too often lacking in societies.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life.

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This sounds very idealistic and unattainable. To be human is to socialise and engage with others. It is said that we can't survive without others, and from a merely practial/ medical sense it is very easy to see why, let alone the fulfillment of social and emotional needs.

JamCrackers: are you a Satanist by any chance?

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

The argument is, as I understand it, that there is a very obvious DESIGN to the way the universe is ordered, and that the concept of a design requires a designer, therefore God must exist.

An Atheist would argue that what seems to be intelligent design is merely evolution at work, so why would it be necessary for God to exist.
That is what a believer in God would call proof.

As to my statement, you misquote me. I said: "I am reliably informed that it is pretty much impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there are problems there as well." This has nothing to do with proving God exists, I state that it is hard to prove that ANYTHING does not or cannot exist. You can call something unlikely, but proving it to not exist is problematical.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot for further details.

God bless

Pen

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the arguement i posted , and the book explained, it, is not the same which u told me . simply u didnt read that or miss to read.

further, if i talk about the argument which u mentioned.. is good, for athiest, what a beautiful evolution, billions of lives, so balanced so perfect system of earth and cosmos. whats a beautiful acciedent :)

I do not know why I get into these things, it so seldom ends well. Sorry if I offended you. I get one thing out of something and others get something else, which has equal ability to be right or wrong. I bow out now, God bless you.

sunt viae, et stulti non errent per eam.

There is this ball of dirt that goes around a star. These apes are born on this ball of dirt. I am one of those apes. It is this day of this year in the internet age. My DNA has battled for countless generations to give rise to me. No other ape was born here that is more human than me. I am self aware. I see the world for what it is. Example: let's say you had the psychic power to influence gambling dice by 1%. The issue is that your effect is so small, that no one really cares. There is a chance an escaped zoo elephant will trample me or an airplane will fall out of the sky on me. It is unlikely, so I run the little nothing risks of life. If you were to cast a voodoo spell, a Jesus chant, beat a drum, point an evil finger, those all go in the trashcan of risks too small to care about. I don't care if spiritualism is real; it is too impotent to effect any real chance I need concern myself about. I don't believe the human apes change. Once the biology of puberty has set in, a human ape stays fixed in their general behavior. I could no more talk you into admitting you were wrong than I could talk you into shooting lasers from your eyes. It will never happen. Everything is because it must be. Cause and effect is not everything. It is about 90%+ though, so cause and effect makes the world go round. We were born, we will live, we will die. Some will be remembered and some forgotten. You had a life to live in this world. If you neglected real life for your religion or spiritualism, I find that morally identical to you saying you spend your life on World of Warcraft or Online Blackjack. Don't get so wrapped up in the social conformity of others apes on this ball of dirt. I am the one self aware. No such ape in a costume exists to answer my questions. I grew up.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

There is this ball of dirt that goes around a star. These apes are born on this ball of dirt. I am one of those apes. It is this day of this year in the internet age. My DNA has battled for countless generations to give rise to me. No other ape was born here that is more human than me. I am self aware. I see the world for what it is. Example: let's say you had the psychic power to influence gambling dice by 1%. The issue is that your effect is so small, that no one really cares. There is a chance an escaped zoo elephant will trample me or an airplane will fall out of the sky on me. It is unlikely, so I run the little nothing risks of life. If you were to cast a voodoo spell, a Jesus chant, beat a drum, point an evil finger, those all go in the trashcan of risks too small to care about. I don't care if spiritualism is real; it is too impotent to effect any real chance I need concern myself about. I don't believe the human apes change. Once the biology of puberty has set in, a human ape stays fixed in their general behavior. I could no more talk you into admitting you were wrong than I could talk you into shooting lasers from your eyes. It will never happen. Everything is because it must be. Cause and effect is not everything. It is about 90%+ though, so cause and effect makes the world go round. We were born, we will live, we will die. Some will be remembered and some forgotten. You had a life to live in this world. If you neglected real life for your religion or spiritualism, I find that morally identical to you saying you spend your life on World of Warcraft or Online Blackjack. Don't get so wrapped up in the social conformity of others apes on this ball of dirt. I am the one self aware. No such ape in a costume exists to answer my questions. I grew up.

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Come back in ten years and have a look at this. See how much you've changed then.

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Originally Posted by blithe spirit

God doesn't promote suffering but he does allow it.

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Destroying every firstborn in the land of Egypt on one night was just 'allowing' suffering to occur?

"What is God's relationship to a world in which suffering and evil occur, bad things happen to good people, and there is no clear explanation of why. Is this because it is a matter of faith, and therefore unexplainable to someone without such faith or belief, or is it that the matter is unclear to Christians?"

The causes of such a world may not be clear to Christians, but God's relationship with it is very clear. To Christians, God entered into that world and freely experienced its bad things inflicted on Himself, the only person who might truly be called "good." God's relationship with the world is, to Christians, that of a fellow sufferer.

That is one bit that is clear. Working out why evil occurs in the first place, and how it affects God's omnipotence are fairly trivial considerations compared with the knowledge that God is inside creation, not a mere disinterested onlooker.

The other bit that is a certainty to Christians is that God is the victor over evil. Evil may have to be suffered, but God does not 'tolerate' it, He opposes it and it is goodness that is the foundation and fulfilment of the universe, not evil.

I think this is the best answer I've read on this topic Whiffling.

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

the arguement i posted , and the book explained, it, is not the same which u told me . simply u didn't read that or miss to read.

further, if i talk about the argument which u mentioned.. is good, for atheist, what a beautiful evolution, billions of lives, so balanced so perfect system of earth and cosmos. whats a beautiful accident :)

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Your quote:

O' My Lord! give us the knowledge of reality of the things. Amen.


Which is, as I said, the universe being built on design, there must be a designer, to me, that is God, and that knowledge is reality.

The person who cannot accept the existence of a supreme being, their reality and knowledge dictates chance and evolution, to them, viable truth.

Perhaps we should all cling to our own belief system, and if others disagree, let them, and let us live in peace.

Si quis autem ignorat, ignorabitur.

God bless you richly,

Pen

The universe is not a design. The universe is a pattern. A pattern is a lot like a design in many ways. We could call it the hydrogen cycle. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe forms clouds, gravity, stars, planets, life, and it does it everywhere for a long time. If you went to whole new galaxy, which is way far away, you would find there what you had here, more hydrogen, stars, planets, and life. Does there have to be a designer? No. It is a mathematical formula, a fractal, this Fibonacci rotating electromagnetic pattern from small to big.

Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. 2) It has no moral implications. "What is the moral of this story?" It has none. The giant sad truth is, it really doesn't matter how life started on Earth. Maybe it was Panspermia. Maybe aliens put it here. It really doesn't matter. It won't change any decisions in our days. Their is no moral virtue to the Jewish Creation Myth because it contributes nothing. We are a science species now. Human will be a science species for the next 10-50 thousand years at least. Pick a better battle. Hydrogen built all this. I don't worship a hydrogen statue.

Lots of thought provoking ideas here. I'll just multi quote a few messages and post my thoughts to them.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

This sounds very idealistic and unattainable. To be human is to socialise and engage with others. It is said that we can't survive without others, and from a merely practial/ medical sense it is very easy to see why, let alone the fulfillment of social and emotional needs.

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Which part, the being alone? It's actually very reminiscent of Thoreau, Alan Watts, and Milarepa to me. Thoreau as he lived alone; Alan Watts in reference to the spontaneity of it; and Milarepa as he said the absolute best thing you can do is live alone in a cave on a mountain where it always snows. Next best is to wander nomadically, unattached, and next to live on the outskirts in a hermitage hut (rough paraphrase).

Idealism and realism or practicality aren't opposites, they're actually rather meaningless at a certain point.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love.

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Paul as Buddhist disagrees but I as a Buddhist agree. Pointedly, Buddhist logic allows for two seemingly contradicting points to exist truly. (It both is and is not; it neither is nor is not.) Throughout Buddhism eeeverywhere and all kinds of other philosophical or spiritual writings it's understood: Once you get to a certain level, you're no longer trying, you're no longer seeking. It's one of the important building blocks of a sane view of life. . .

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Love and godness are unfortunately not things that arise in completion in humans. It takes development.

I can't really speak for Christians, but a Buddhist needs to progress along the path to become a better person embodying love and compassion. The teachings form part of this. If such positive traits were a naturally occurring phenomena, then there would be no need for the teachings, but clearly, like every phase of history, love and compassion are all too often lacking in societies.

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Love and compassion are natural, and I believe every master (Buddhist or any) that I would respect at all would say the same. These are the natural qualities; after all, isn't it our basic nature? To say anything else is more natural is sacrilege (to say the opposite qualities are more natural). What is more natural than love? Love and kindness heal, love and kindness create, they are everything good and natural. They are absolutely natural, and they're the best that is in us. They're everything.

Likewise - the enlightening Dharma is natural, the enlightened Buddha is natural, and the student is natural. I was listening to a Dharma talk of Thay, and I remember him saying - the Dharma is lovely in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. In other words, in the very beginning of practice, the experience is beautiful. In the middle it is, and the end is as well.

Pain occurs, but it is natural to learn to avoid it. Vivekananda said, the goal of life is happiness; the bright understand this quickly, the unintelligent, a little more slowly.

For the record, Buddhist teaching doesn't say that love and compassion are lacking; if you immerse yourself in Buddhism you will see absolutely countless cases where it's indicated the Buddha's teaching taught that every moment is complete, whole, lacking nothing, and that we are, as ourselves, complete, whole, and lacking nothing. The very core of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment was that love and goodness do arise in completion in humans, and they arise as soon as we awaken to our Buddha nature - our real nature, which is. . . if I may say so without avoiding circular logic or over-repetition, natural.

The path is difficult for some, it is true, but its essence is not complicated: "Do good, do not do evil, and cultivate the mind."

It is an infinite process, yes, and one of the keys involved is to return to step one; return to the here, and the now - observe. One of the most powerful methods is to become absorbed in the question, "Who am I?" When a thought occurs, "To whom is it occurring?"

There are certain predicates to practice.. master Bassui, as well as Ramana Maharshi (not Buddhist... :lol: :rofl:) taught questioning as the way, taught this koan, "Who am I?"

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Which part, the being alone? It's actually very reminiscent of Thoreau, Alan Watts, and Milarepa to me. Thoreau as he lived alone; Alan Watts in reference to the spontaneity of it; and Milarepa as he said the absolute best thing you can do is live alone in a cave on a mountain where it always snows. Next best is to wander nomadically, unattached, and next to live on the outskirts in a hermitage hut (rough paraphrase).

Idealism and realism or practicality aren't opposites, they're actually rather meaningless at a certain point.



Paul as Buddhist disagrees but I as a Buddhist agree. Pointedly, Buddhist logic allows for two seemingly contradicting points to exist truly. (It both is and is not; it neither is nor is not.) Throughout Buddhism eeeverywhere and all kinds of other philosophical or spiritual writings it's understood: Once you get to a certain level, you're no longer trying, you're no longer seeking. It's one of the important building blocks of a sane view of life. . .



Love and compassion are natural, and I believe every master (Buddhist or any) that I would respect at all would say the same. These are the natural qualities; after all, isn't it our basic nature? To say anything else is more natural is sacrilege (to say the opposite qualities are more natural). What is more natural than love? Love and kindness heal, love and kindness create, they are everything good and natural. They are absolutely natural, and they're the best that is in us. They're everything.

Likewise - the enlightening Dharma is natural, the enlightened Buddha is natural, and the student is natural. I was listening to a Dharma talk of Thay, and I remember him saying - the Dharma is lovely in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. In other words, in the very beginning of practice, the experience is beautiful. In the middle it is, and the end is as well.

Pain occurs, but it is natural to learn to avoid it. Vivekananda said, the goal of life is happiness; the bright understand this quickly, the unintelligent, a little more slowly.

For the record, Buddhist teaching doesn't say that love and compassion are lacking; if you immerse yourself in Buddhism you will see absolutely countless cases where it's indicated the Buddha's teaching taught that every moment is complete, whole, lacking nothing, and that we are, as ourselves, complete, whole, and lacking nothing. The very core of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment was that love and goodness do arise in completion in humans, and they arise as soon as we awaken to our Buddha nature - our real nature, which is. . . if I may say so without avoiding circular logic or over-repetition, natural.

The path is difficult for some, it is true, but its essence is not complicated: "Do good, do not do evil, and cultivate the mind."

It is an infinite process, yes, and one of the keys involved is to return to step one; return to the here, and the now - observe. One of the most powerful methods is to become absorbed in the question, "Who am I?" When a thought occurs, "To whom is it occurring?"

There are certain predicates to practice.. master Bassui, as well as Ramana Maharshi (not Buddhist... :lol: :rofl:) taught questioning as the way, taught this koan, "Who am I?"

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I'd like to respond to this Nik. Shall we start a new thread rather than hijack this one?

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

The universe is not a design. The universe is a pattern. A pattern is a lot like a design in many ways. We could call it the hydrogen cycle. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe forms clouds, gravity, stars, planets, life, and it does it everywhere for a long time. If you went to whole new galaxy, which is way far away, you would find there what you had here, more hydrogen, stars, planets, and life. Does there have to be a designer? No. It is a mathematical formula, a fractal, this Fibonacci rotating electromagnetic pattern from small to big.

Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. 2) It has no moral implications. "What is the moral of this story?" It has none. The giant sad truth is, it really doesn't matter how life started on Earth. Maybe it was Panspermia. Maybe aliens put it here. It really doesn't matter. It won't change any decisions in our days. Their is no moral virtue to the Jewish Creation Myth because it contributes nothing. We are a science species now. Human will be a science species for the next 10-50 thousand years at least. Pick a better battle. Hydrogen built all this. I don't worship a hydrogen statue.

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This may be yours and many people's views, but you live in a world where a significant number of people think otherwise. it would be a mistake to think that their views don't matter considering that there are many millions of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others. In that sense, whatever the truth of it, it does matter, and it matters to you and me too.

In coming years, though science is in the ascendancy, there is absolutely no guarrantee in the long run that science won't decline. I can't see it, but then who would have predicted the decline of Christianity in the West 100 years ago? Whatever - the views of millions do matter and will continue to affect us.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

"What is God's relationship to a world in which suffering and evil occur, bad things happen to good people, and there is no clear explanation of why. Is this because it is a matter of faith, and therefore unexplainable to someone without such faith or belief, or is it that the matter is unclear to Christians?"

The causes of such a world may not be clear to Christians, but God's relationship with it is very clear. To Christians, God entered into that world and freely experienced its bad things inflicted on Himself, the only person who might truly be called "good." God's relationship with the world is, to Christians, that of a fellow sufferer.

That is one bit that is clear. Working out why evil occurs in the first place, and how it affects God's omnipotence are fairly trivial considerations compared with the knowledge that God is inside creation, not a mere disinterested onlooker.

The other bit that is a certainty to Christians is that God is the victor over evil. Evil may have to be suffered, but God does not 'tolerate' it, He opposes it and it is goodness that is the foundation and fulfilment of the universe, not evil.

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I agree totally

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. n statue.

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I marvel at how certain you are that God is a myth. As if you've studied life and came to your own conclusions.

Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.

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If you want to read a bunch of rantings that should be disregarded, just go back and read your posts.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I'd like to respond to this Nik. Shall we start a new thread rather than hijack this one?

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Yes, sure. I've just started one.

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Originally Posted by JamCrackers

Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.

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What you mean is, there are scientists that you have faith in who are more than willing to paint God out of the equation. I personally know people who are certain that a supreme being, or beings, created the Earth and all that is therein. They come from many persuasions, not only Christian-Judaism. The point is sooner or later you have to accept everything on faith, having never witnessed it. Scientists discover new things everyday that the large majority of people will never see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, but which the majority will find perfectly plausible because, after all, it is science. Others accept things that they also will never see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, because they believe in a supreme being or beings, and after all, that is God.

God bless

Pen

Originally Posted by usman.khawar
the arguement i posted , and the book explained, it, is not the same which u told me . simply u didn't read that or miss to read.

further, if i talk about the argument which u mentioned.. is good, for atheist, what a beautiful evolution, billions of lives, so balanced so perfect system of earth and cosmos. whats a beautiful accident



Your quote:

O' My Lord! give us the knowledge of reality of the things. Amen.


Which is, as I said, the universe being built on design, there must be a designer, to me, that is God, and that knowledge is reality.

The person who cannot accept the existence of a supreme being, their reality and knowledge dictates chance and evolution, to them, viable truth.

Perhaps we should all cling to our own belief system, and if others disagree, let them, and let us live in peace.

Si quis autem ignorat, ignorabitur.

God bless you richly,

Pen

Thanks Pen for prays, God bless you too richly...

once again that is not the argument i m talking about.

some people say in counter argument for this design argument , for instance in a forest there is no planing for trees, but out of it, it becomes automatically a design. so as it is, in this universe it becomes automatically a design so this is not enough or final proof of God's existence. in words of my teacher, very well explained this concept also in that book i m reffering to you, are as given below:

" it is important to note that all the proofs of God’s existence that have been provided by theologians so far have been abstract and particular. They lacked absolute authority, and the possibility of doubt always remained. For instance the cosmological argument states that God was the ‘first cause’ who created the cosmos. The opponents of this claim have argued that ‘Nature’ can be regarded as the Creator and if the design of the universe is attributed to God, it can equally be ascribed to a ‘chance event’. The ‘teleological argument’ points to the complex order and design of the universe as evidence of God. In response some have claimed that the matter of the universe has evolved over time and has become more refined and complex. If the theologians point to the orbits of the planets and stars to show the fine planning that must be behind all this, their opponents simply argue that this system arose from chaos and chance collisions and upheavals led to the natural order we see today"



you just pick this pray of Muhammad The Last messenger of God from the 1st page of the thread. the book which explained this argument ,everyothers misconceptions, starts from next pages of that thread. which 1st chapter is "humanity let down by the gatekeepers of the knoweldge"

if u like to read that unbreakable scientific objective argument and which provides us absolute authourity in reason and argument in favor of God's existence, here is the link .. http://www.alamaat.com/TheArgument.php.. start from the 1st chapter..


your quote "Perhaps we should all cling to our own belief system, and if others disagree, let them, and let us live in peace"

what if other person is saying rightly and have a better beleif system and better argument then what ? should we still cling to our own beleif system ? should not we think about the other's strong argument or just turn our back towards it as we never listen that? does prejudice stops a person or is it anything else ?

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

what if other person is saying rightly and have a better beleif system and better argument then what ? should we still cling to our own beleif system ? should not we think about the other's strong argument or just turn our back towards it as we never listen that? does prejudice stops a person or is it anything else ?

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That "better belief system" is a matter of opinion, with which I disagree. God bless

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

That "better belief system" is a matter of opinion, with which I disagree. God bless

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Amen...

I do find it distasteful that when someone like myself is willing to allow others their own way of believing, attitude seems to disfavor that person. Some seem to have this view: "Shut up and I'll show you just where you're wrong." If I cannot agree with someone, if I have a different view, if I don't believe that they have a better answer, I still strive to be civil.

This quote was in my inbox today, from an old friend in California. We are close friends even while being of widely differing views on Christianity. I'll pass it along, as it is good advice.


Thought for the day: Let go of your need to always be right. There are so many of us who can’t stand the idea of being wrong — wanting to always be right — even at the risk of ending great relationships or causing a great deal of stress and pain, for us and for others, it’s just not worth it. Whenever you feel the ‘urgent’ need to jump into a fight over who is right and who is wrong, ask yourself this question: “Would I rather be right, or would I rather be kind?” — Wayne Dyer.

God bless

Pen

Because heaven is the hereAFTER, not the here NOW. lol.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Thought for the day: Let go of your need to always be right. There are so many of us who can’t stand the idea of being wrong — wanting to always be right — even at the risk of ending great relationships or causing a great deal of stress and pain, for us and for others, it’s just not worth it. Whenever you feel the ‘urgent’ need to jump into a fight over who is right and who is wrong, ask yourself this question: “Would I rather be right, or would I rather be kind?” — Wayne Dyer.

God bless

Pen

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For the most part, religions teach tolerance of others. At least I think they do. Except for nut jobs who take things to the extreme. However, when you get to the core of major religious belief's, they do tend to clash with one another. For instance, Christianity says to get along with your fellow man but have no indulgence with a non believer. Wipe your feet of them. I know other religions have similar sayings.

I don't think it's about being right or nice but following one's teachings.

I was dating someone once who fell into the Jehovah's witness camp. They brainwashed her to the point of our relationship ending. Sad result of religious intolerance.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

That "better belief system" is a matter of opinion, with which I disagree. God bless

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i would chose to be kind hehe. well i think opinion is based on some facts. should be authentic ones to give better opinion. is there any criteria to judge or check about the best opinion among so many ?


God bless

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

i would chose to be kind hehe. well i think opinion is based on some facts. should be authentic ones to give better opinion. is there any criteria to judge or check about the best opinion among so many ?


God bless

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My friend, I can conceive of no criteria about religious beliefs that would be unanimously agreed upon by any two people. Everyone believes that they are correct in what they believe, and seldom have I seen a change among the people that are truly convinced that they are in the right. An undecided person is easier to approach with an invitation to listen; a person firm in their belief will seldom waver.

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee

From Hamlet by William Shakespeare

It is why I agree to disagree with people, and remain friends.

God bless

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

My friend, I can conceive of no criteria about religious beliefs that would be unanimously agreed upon by any two people. God bless

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you are right. Mankind didnt work upon it. the only reason it seems to me that Mankind never took God in their 1st prioirty. 1st priority of intellectual curosity. otherwise there is a criteria i know. A very scientific and objective one. Already mentioned in the book which i shared.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

I do find it distasteful that when someone like myself is willing to allow others their own way of believing....

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Yes, it is tiresome doing that. But I do thank people like you for allowing me to believe what I want to believe. :rolleyes5:

I no longer have anything to say about God in this section. It's a no-win situation. Besides, even the mods misunderstand and throw stones at ya.

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Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

I no longer have anything to say about God in this section. It's a no-win situation. Besides, even the mods misunderstand and throw stones at ya.

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Thrown stones from misunderstanding mods are not exclusive to the God crowd, trust me.

I'm surprised this thread has been going on as long as it has.....but.....

I saw this today ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2n7vSPwhSU ) - and it is cases like these that makes me both wonder "why, if God exists, does He let people like this thrive" and "this makes me want to have nothing to do with religion."

I am fully aware that cases like these are the minority in the grand scheme of things, but if I was part of a religious institution I would be embarrassed by association: not only because of the hatred but the sheer stupidity of the whole thing.

I think that guy is filled with hate. It's one thing to say privately that homosexuality is wrong, another thing to say I want them all dead. The guy is a whack job and not to be associated with any clear thinking religion.

They call what this guy is saying "extreme prejudice". Does he really think he could convert any person with same sex preference with this kind of attack? As he said, "God, have mercy!" It's for certain this man has none...