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Here's my take on the argument:
If God created everything, and knows what will, can, or ever could be, free will cannot exist without independent choice. But no one can be independent of god, because he created us to perform a task with we can neither change, nor deviate from. In fact, to belivers of an omnipotent god, only the illusion of free will can exist, not free will in the truest sense.
"Where's the connection between God being omniscient and our free will? "
can god be omniscient, but not omnipotent? Or omnipontent, but not omniscient? If he knew everything, but was unable to do everything, then, I could see hoe free will could exist. But, if he created me, and created all the choices I could make how is that free will? Being able to make a choice he didn't expect, one that I alone choce to make idependent of god's knolegde would be free will. Anything else is just running along the track he made for me.
Hmm... I got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
God created us with a purpose or design, I agree. But I can't agree with your opinon that says we can neither change or deviate from it. Just look at our condition now. We can even call it "bad" (well, many of us have been so used to it that they feel just alright with it). So it means we are capable to change or deviate from the purpose or design that God always wants us to fulfill.
There's the concept of sin, an expression of our independence. Our free will, I think, is expressed when we "kill" God. (And, we kill Him continuously in our life, don't we?). But it's only one example. Another example can be when we choose to keep the faith despite our lack of understanding.
Whatever we choose to do, God is there, omniscient and omnipotent still. We perform our free will, and God let it happen. From this, victims fall. God has promised to payback for those victims, and we.... we keep on performing our free will.
That's where the 'logical' arguments for God's existence always fall down. Believers want it all ways. They will not give an inch on the following statements:Quote:
Originally Posted by silence782
1. God created everything that exists.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. God is omniscient.
4. God gave us free will.
5. God loves all of us.
Qualify one or more of these statements and it may be possible to reconcile the idea of God with the world around us. Try to hold to them all rigidly and you fall down holes in logic all over the place. The only way to believe all of the above is therefore to rely on 'faith' and to deny the validity of logic (at least as it relates to God). This I find myself incapable of doing - I guess that's just the way God made me! :lol:
Besides, if we were made in the image of God, as is claimed, isn't it likely that the big fella is just as ****ed up as we are?
I assume you know the following Monty Python parody of "All things bright and beautiful"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings;
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid;
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul, and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen.
*nods* I've always dound it strange that a person can belive in two contradicting ideas at the same time. For example, "God is good." and yet he created evil. "God is love." Yet, he created Satan with full knoledge of what he would do, and loosed him upon us.
Oops, sorry for the bad spelling, but it was 3 AM when I wrote that last post...
Silence if that is your reason for not believing in God, then you aren't seeing the bigger picture.
Now I respect XM because he is a true Athiest, and often doesn't say anything without having carefully thought it out.
And it is not that your view is wrong, its just simply misguided.
Now, I don't know what God is thinking, and I can be mistaken. But I seen the reasons God created us, and arranged for our fall.
Satan was a perfect being, and in his beauty and perfection he loved himself more than the Lord. It because of that self love that he rebelled against God, with three quarters of heavens angels.
God thus created man, planning to fill the positions lost in heaven. Knowing full well that Satan would corrupt his creations.
But he let it happen anyways, because he had already planned it to.
Why? The host of heaven were as the bible says perfect. But Satan loved himself more than God, and so corrupted himself, as did the others.
Yet God created man, for the same reason he creates everything. Love.
And he gave man through his fall the freedom of choice.
Something the angels of heaven never had.
With that freedom of choice, a human who was no longer a perfect being and was not obligated to serve God, but serves him and seeks him out of love for his creator.
Those that choose God, or Christ, it say will inhabit the kingdoms of heaven of which Satan's hosts left vacant when htey were given the realm of Hell.
Those that lived for evil means, join Satans kingdom and become his own servants.
And those that never choosed, as the bible says. Will simply never be ressurected and thus cease to exist.
So, in hindview, God has allowed evil to exist to a certain point in time, so that his creations may choose to serve him, or reject him and be done with it.
And as for the evil in the world, God doesn't create evil, his creations create evil. Thus God is blameless.
Hope this helped to give you a more open minded opinion on the subject.
Thanks for reading.
Shizz.
P.s. I absolutely loved Read or Die.
"So often we are looking, that we hardly ever see."
"I can't see the trees, because the forest is in the way."
XM Don't forget, that we were perfect before we were corrupted.
And also don't forget that God is the ultimate excentric, because if he wasn't then he certainly wouldn't have created the entire universe. God simply creates for a few small reasons.
For his own enjoyment. God's an artist, poet, writer, philosopher, etc.
Hence we as his creations, made in his image also exude a need to create.
God wants to be love and accepted by his creations.
God wants to have a relationship with all of his creations. His love created them and he wants to be loved in return.
This is also a major fundamental of all human makeup, since the first thing we humans ever do, or do anything for really. Is acceptence and appreciation for what we do, regardless of who the acceptance is from.
We feel connections to thing we pursue. Like growing plants, or tending animals. You feel a connection to those things, and you want to see them prosper.
God also wants humans to prosper and enjoy life, in the same way.
He get his enjoyment, out of seeing our enjoyment.
We human exhibit sinful emotions.
Emotions we were never supposed to have. Yet we also have pure emotions, like wrath, or pure anger.
Both do not equate to hatred, they are both fierce and severe, but quick to dissapate. And it is only when we consciously hold those feelings longer, that hate starts to grow.
We also feel many different forms of love, family love, love of a friend, pure passion, and pure desire, affectionate love, and deep love.
Those again can be turned to feelings of envy, and hostility.
Once again I don't claim to know all the answers, but if you look deeply at human thought, and human behaviour you find some very odd quirks, that logically shouldn't have evolved with a creature.
Though I'm sure there is more than just one arguement for this, this is indeed my answer of what I know. And i'm quite sure there are other people out there that could indeed explain all of this better.
Still, thanks again, You actually take the time to read my post before you answer them, and it is greatly appreciated. :D
Shizz.
"Tell the world, tell em all, that Franco was here!"
An address, often not included.
:banana:
Odd quirks, hm? Of course human thought and behavior patterns don't fit evolution--humans only started deviating from evolutionary behavioral patterns when they started denying the presence of evolution.
I don't suppose you've ever read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? I've mentioned it a couple times on the forums--just read it a few weeks ago, and I really enjoyed it. An eye-opener for me.
No I've never had the pleasure.
Have you ever read the poems of Caedemon, especially the ones written on Genesis?
"Holobolo"
No, I haven't--poetry isn't my preferred category for reading, but I'm curious. Perhaps I'll look into it.
Don't laugh, but I think Michael Crichton's The Lost World makes an interesting point regarding the nature of evolution. What happens it that the Velociraptors that have been cloned exhibit behaviors that are nothing like the hunters of today, and probably nothing like the hunters of prehistory.
For example, when they make a kill, all ages of raptor leap into the fray to feed, without any form of hierarchy based on rank or sex. If one raptor is contesting the meal against another, it is liable to be disemboweled and then added to the menu.
The reason for this is because, when the Velociraptors were cloned, only their GENETIC blueprint was copied. Any form of social hierarchy that existed in raptor "culture" was lost when they went extinct, and with it any rituals or practices (such as feeding patterns) that kept them orderly. Other group predators by comparison, like lions, undergo no such chaos after hunting.
So, the question is, when humans replaced the family/group structure that exists in other branches of the primate tree with a counter-evolutionary thought pattern, how did they manage to survive? For example, I was thinking about poisonous mushrooms earlier in the day (I haven't the faintest idea why). How is it that humans have to be formally educated in which mushrooms are edible and which are poisonous, yet wild animals manage just fine without posters or the New York Public Library Desk Reference? Or take all of those abominable commercials for Viagra and comparable drugs--if the condition being treated is so serious and epidemic that it merits medical research to fix, how is it that we managed for the past 40,000 years as a species?
I don't think so. Not all of us he loves.Quote:
5. God loves all of us
hmm 5 truths?
well that is what religious people believe,
"1. God created everything that exists.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. God is omniscient.
4. God gave us free will.
5. God loves all of us."
Number 1 is logical, but its wording can allow for a wide range of interpretations, from God has created each and every thing in the galaxy personally, to God created the matter needed by the "big Bang".
number 2, why not.
number 3, why not.
number 4, now here is a dilemma if God knows all, he knows what choice we will make so is it free will, but theoretically we are still free to make the choice, it's just that God knows the outcome.
Number 5, why not.
All of these cannot be proved nor disproved, so when discussing this one must be carefull not to commit the fallacy of the argument from ignorance, God exists because you can't prove he doesn't, and God doesn't exist because you can't prove he can.
We'll just have to wait till we die, so untill then the choice is to have blind faith or not. Maybe a different question is why do you think God does/doesn't exist, why does it have meaning for you, or why does it not have meaning for you? Is religious faith really so bad?
If God does not exist, how can rules (either thought or felt) function?
"If God does not exist, everything is permitted" including murder (of any forms, at any levels), theft (of any degrees), betrayals, etc. And, those things would happen at the very beginning of the history of mankind that it would take an illogical effort for the logic to accept the fact that human race have managed to survive this far.
If God did not exist, the history of mankind would not even survive a day. If God did not exist, every actions that we now call "evil" would be justified. There would be no faults, wrongs; everything would be right, good.
The reason why today we still witness people doing evil is because they don't admit the presence of God, or if they admit it (such as religious people), they openly reject him, preferring their own desires.
Wow, somebody has an EXTREMELY warped view of us atheists.
Look outside--assuming you don't live an a major urban center, there's probably some form of wildlife out there. What you see are creatures existing peacefully who haven't the faintest concept of a deity and, what's more, probably aren't inclined to seek one. Yet they've survived just dandy of MILLIONS of years without committing mass murder, wanton rape, or conscienceless theft like you seem to think we'll do.
I'm an atheist, I'll say right now. I'll also say that I don't swear, drink, or smoke, and have sworn a personal vow of chastity until I am married. I have no criminal record whatsoever, and am near the top of my class at school. I was born by my mother--I didn't emerge from a smoking hole in the ground. No late-night sex rituals, no sacrificing small animals. Prejudice is an ugly thing, bhekti.
our friend above is assuming that a clean life can only be discovered from God, and that people could not create a morale notion on their own...from a strictly evolutionary sense it is only natural that people would develop morals or law codes...it is simply group dynamics.
Personally I do believe in God, and that God is the source of good, however, the argument is a week one, athiests are capable of making moral decisions.
I'm an atheist as well, and I wouldn't have defended that case better. Thanks Robin!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I think what's really important is whether or not you have principles, isn't it? :confused:
RobinHood3000: "I'm an atheist, I'll say right now. I'll also say that I don't swear, drink, or smoke, and have sworn a personal vow of chastity until I am married. I have no criminal record whatsoever, and am near the top of my class at school."
Ah but... your disbelief in God does not prevent Him from being the author of your conscience. I think that it (your disbelief, I mean) may make you better able to fulfil His purposes, because your moral code is something that you work out and choose for yourself, rather than taking it ready-made from some book. Religion can be a great barrier to godliness, and atheists do not have that hurdle to jump over.
Now, if you could just be a bit more positive for good, as well as negative towards bad, then...
Very well said, and supported by the parable of the son that leaves and then is welcomed back and treated as a king when he returns. Leading a good life is the main thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
Perhaps--whether God's purpose is authored by Him or me, I am glad to at least live my life by principles to which I can claim some degree of personal authorship.
I wonder if a valid parallel would be trying to find the right diet--often, the one that works best is one that's customized for you, rather than one from the mouths of Atkins or Jenny Craig.
indeed, I do not understand some of these flash diets they are as fake as some of the television preachers!Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
Ahh, Diets, its "Die" with a T.
Its often a hard realization that in spite of our efforts, we are not getting anywhere.
In truth this is sometimes upsetting, in many forms of a way, and indeed vexating on a persons mind.
For this reason it is very difficult trying to discuss things with Atheist, and the like, because we all naturally assume that our faith is the correct answer, and thus all other answers are lacking, or void in usefullness.
This is why it is often difficult to make any head way. I can understand the views of the world from the eyes of an Atheist, but many can't, just as an atheist cannot understand the actual feelings of true faith.
All the more we are to pitied, equally.
For these simple reasons.
We as Christians believe in Christ, and thus want to share our faith with those around us, while those around us usually do not wish to open their minds to that specific way of thought.
Moreover, many people site the church as an excuse for not wishing to belong to Christianity. And we as Christians are so often causght in defence of the church that we fail to acknowledge the fact that the Atheists are right.
Many churches are spiritually bonded to religion, or religious rituals and hardly encourage the development of personal faith.
People who follow these, are often Sunday Christians, who neither seek a true relationship with Christ, or wish to know more about their creator.
These people are disfunctional Christians, because the do not essentially understand Christianity fully. Thus they fall into religious doctrinations of those churches which in many cases crushes someones faith.
Many Atheist who I know were former Christians, who caught in that spiritual stagnation lost their faith, because there was no room in those churches for an individuals spiritual growth.
This often embitters a person towards Christianity. And thus makes them unwilling to recieve or even consider ideas from a Christian perspective, because they've already been involved with church that was repressive and thus think that all Christian ideals are equally repressive to the attitude of that former church.
Therefor its hard to convince or share and idea with anyone who is deadset against what you say, before you've even had the chance to say it.
More than likely this will be shot done, or ripped apart, but by doing so it only really proves what I've said in the above.
"How often does though comst here? Too often I thinketh!"
Bartle Bronags.
Oh, I wouldn't say that, shizznigg. Not all atheists are lunatics bent on converting the world to paganism. Some of us are quite open to religious opinions.
I'd also like to point out that being an atheist sometimes requires just as much faith as believing in a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I would say that it requires even more.
What I don't understand about this post is, that all atheist are bent on converting the world to paganism?
Are you a paganist? Or do you try to convert people to paganism? :confused:
I didn't mention anything about atheist trying to convert people, merely the difficulties many have with being unbiased when given spiritual questions about Christianity.
I'd in no way think for a minute that Atheist are the enemies of my faith, and so on, because your not.
In my eyes you are merely people, the same as everyone else.
Take care, Shizz.
"Lollipops!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
Well... I don't know whether I should consider myself an aetheist or not... but here's what I think... that most likely... there isn't really a god in the sky... but from watching my grandmother, I love the way she just believes in him and that almost convinces me that there is a god. Sometimes though... I think that it isn't true and the reason why things turn out better for people that truly and deeply believe in God is because they believe in themselves more than anything... they assure themselves that everything is going to be alright because they know that God will open their way. This belief, it brings hope and they will know that something good is going to happen no matter what, so in my view, belief in God=unlimited feeling of hope and that's why I love that belief in God. Even though... the thing is, it's too unlikely that he exists and therefore I choose to not believe in him sometimes because I need to be realistic, things are the way they are, and if there is no God... well I can't just stand there as if a road was going to magically open for me, nothing can ever be gotten from that (even though I do tend to do that either way). Even though, the fact that there is a possibility that he might exist, shift my view every once in a while and well... it gives me faith in him... and thus... I get that feeling of hope, and also... of course if he exists I say "God... if you exist, I'm sorry for not believing... but I just can't prove if you are real... but if you do exist... thank you for what you have done". It doesn't just end there, I continue on "and if there is by any chance more gods... thank you all".
So... where does that put me? An aetheist because I don't really believe in God?
agnostic maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalCrash
huh... didn't know there was such word... hehe... well then yes I am agnostic... :D
To shizznigg--sorry, I think I was trying to make the point that some atheists are more open-minded than others and are available for some degree of "headway."
To DigitalCrash--I'm thinking you're more of an agnostic than an atheist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhekti
Here's what I don't get... if God is just... why does he have to punish those that aren't? None of us chose to be born in this family, in this life... and our minds are something that are created through experience. Sometimes I just think... and think... and I realize we never truly chose to like what we like, it simply just happens. When I was younger I had this bird and I loved it... it died 8 days later but those were some of the best days of my life, but because of that event... birds have become my favorite animals. It sounds like a choice but it kind of isn't, if I was in another body, with another mind and another life... would I still like birds? well that depends on the life you know... the experience. On the other hand... if you lived through exactly, but I mean exactly the same thing I went through when I was younger, with exactly the same thoughts and ideas... I think you would like birds. It's something I thought about, and since its not our fault that we like what we like and we hate what we hate... then its not a murderers fault that they're killing others, its simply the way things are and if God is just... then he can't punish him over something the poor man couldn't control.
First of all, Digital, I love your signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalCrash
As to what you ask, we must not blame our faults on our difficulties. I have never circumstantially had an easy day in my life thus far, yet I feel remorse for every sin I have ever committed - even in failing to do what would have accomplished absolute Good. I am surrounded, though, by people that give no thought to ethics, who claim they hardly have ever known hardship, and, even at the best of times, treat others like worthless dirt to walk over and hurt as they run to fill themselves with heartless luxuries. They have the same freedom of will that you and I have, but do you not grieve even for those that you are not at fault for the suffering of? I think that you do - otherwise, why would you spend so much of your heart struggling for an answer to others' sufferings?
No one is born a pedophile - that's a sinner's chosen obsession, resulting from a carrying on of avoidance of proper cultivation. No one has the inclination to be a faithful spouse because of mere circumstance, but because of a chosen cooperation with Graces from GOD, whether with perfect or imperfect awareness at some points along the way filled with trials and exercises.
Saint Francis of Assissi was the son of a godless man who encouraged his son to carry on in his juvenile delinquency, as he led his peers in rebellious teenage trouble-making. Then one day, while still rather young and popular, the lad's heart changed, and he decided to become a Catholic Christian. He was threatened by his father with rejection if he didn't reject his new Christian Life, but he chose GOD over the father he had never wanted to lose the acceptance of. All that had seemed a place of priviledge to Francis, he now saw nothing in, while all the Good he had previously had every motive to ignore, was now his one occupation.
A person may kill, undoubtedly, for a different reason than another, but murder is still murder - because of the motive. No one has a murderous motive due to mere background - because one's choice for or against a targetted disposition or attitude will remain a strong motivation against the tide. I know of some people that are exceptionally cheerful and gentle despite the odds seeming against them comprehending such good qualities. How is this? Because GOD has assigned virtues to our nature - but we choose what we shall come to: whether we cooperate with the CREATOR so that we solidify these qualities within ourselves like pottery being set in the kiln, or drift ever more and more away from our original GOD-given nature.
Ahem--you should know that I have sworn faithfulness to my significant other (and in the future, my spouse) without any divine intervention whatsoever.
As an atheist, not only don't I believe in god, but I don't believe in 'true faith' either. In my opinion, faith cannot be true if the object of that faith is non-existant. Faith is merely a more socially acceptable name for wishful thinking.
You have faith that there is no such thing as faith or God? It can't concretely be proven either way, so in a sense you are wishfully thinking that there is no god.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleguts
This is awful lot of generalisation. Believing in a deity does not necessarily mean one will lead a 'good' life. Nor does one need to believe in a divine being to lead a moral life. There are many people who are atheists or, even though they believe in God, who do not actively practise any religion. If it makes it easier for one to lead a moral life in the light of religious teachings, that is perfectly fine but to assume that without those teachings one will automatically be led astray is a biased opinion in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil
This is interesting. If we do good things, it is because God has assigned certain virtues to us and if we don't, it is because we choose to do so? Why does God assign 'not-so- pleasant' virtues to some of us then? Like jealousy or greed? Or why does God create some of us weak enough to give in the temptation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV
You guys seem to be neglecting the devils influence on the situation.
Not all aetheist are like that. You see part of me doesn't believe in God, is skeptic about it (and I choose when to believe in him), it's kind of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing without the evil vs good in it. Anyhow... assuming God doesn't exist, then there would be no right or wrong, which means anything is possible, so because of that, I could just kill anyone I want right? so, why do I choose not to? It's simple, because, even though I don't believe in God (a part of me), life is life, it ends up being random events without him, it's short, and life is life, and you only get one of it, I don't kill because there is a God, the reason I don't kill is because even though I can do whatever I want, I understand that there are other people around and quite frankly, this being a one-time experience, I don't want to take that away from anyone. In order to have such a belief, do I have to believe in a God? No, and this is the reason why most aetheist don't kill, they want to give everyone a chance to live and enjoy the wonders of life. Believing in God simply adds more motive to this, but quite frankly... I don't want to kill because there is a God, because that just feels too selfish, I don't want to kill simply because I want to give others a chance, and that is, in my opinion, a much better reason for not killing. So taking this into though, does that mean aetheists are evil or bad? No, they aren't, they deserve to choose the path they want (even if it is just "given" to them, by, from my not-believing-in-God side, life)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV
So, he just had a change of heart just like that? Magically? I find that impossible... nobody has change of heart for over no reason at all. That would mean that one day he was "I believe in no God" and the next he just magically changed and became "I believe in God", if that was the case, there had to be doubt about what he wanted somewhere in his life. Assuming there's a God, God set out the rules of this world, and psychology is one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV
Well, how do you know that? Have you ever murdered before? I mean... a murderer murders for a reason, always, and once again... as a child... if they're mistreated, well, does a child really have such experience in life, if as a child they were taught that killing was good, then it's not their fault. Ok, if that was the case, then it'd be similar to your previous story, but as a child who is mistreated and is taught that killing was good, there's a pretty slim chance that they'll have such a change of heart, I mean, putting myself in their shoes, that's pretty tough unless something in life sparks my mind and gives me knowledge of morals. So in other words, God gives us virtues and its our decision to follow or deny them, but life, depending on the way it treats us, motivates us to either follow or deny them, but is it really our fault if we can't handle such pressure. I mean, putting myself in their shoes if I think really deeply, something awful must've happened to get them to start killing, don't you think? Decisions don't just pop out of no where.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV
Uhm... don't take offence....but since you are an atheist (and, here, for politeness sake, I am trying to adjust myself to your conviction), does it make any difference if you are not as you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
I mean, you can't be serious with that personal description of yours, can you? Coz, what for? Is there any value in it? What is value anyway? there is no God...
So? There is no God, remember? you say it's ugly, my companion here says it's not ugly, another companion of mine over there says it's necessary, .....Quote:
Prejudice is an ugly thing, bhekti
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhekti
He is what he is, and he does what he believes is right. Prejudice being an ugly thing for him is an opinion. You have to remember though that peer pressure and stuff like that plays an important role in your beliefs, there may be no God, but because so many people frown upon prejudice, they teach their kids to frown upon it to, does it make it right? no, does it make it wrong? no, does it make it liked? no. Also, people fear problems and will try to avoid them as much as they can, thus most learn to respect others, making prejudice be more frowned upon. So basically, what happens is that, in this way, morals are created without there being a God.
Another thing I would like to add about morals, according to your term of morals, God created them, like laws that we should follow. What's more important though, the fact that he exists, or the fact that we believe in him? As long as we believe in him, the morals are still there, and even if we don't, there will still be the "preferred" morals.
Aye, there is value in it. I may not believe in a God, but I believe in goodness to others. My creed in life, since it obviously is not to serve God, isQuote:
Originally Posted by bhekti
Therefore, the reason why I do not drink, smoke, have wanton orgies, etc., is because such actions are detrimental to my well-being and the well-being of those around me.Quote:
Originally Posted by My Mission Statement
Did you just tell me that my beliefs are ludicrous, worthless, and empty, then ask me not to take offense?
Personally, I think that it is somewhat selfish (albeit natural) for a person to think that there is no purpose to life if there's no afterlife to work for. Regardless of what personal concern (or ego, depending on whom you ask) would tell us, the world continues beyond our passing. It is thusly that I hope to leave an impression--by seeking make the lives of those around me better and more pleasant. One does not have to believe in a god to understand the concepts of pleasure and pain, happiness and misery.
In addition, it is based on this that I can say that prejudice is an ugly thing--it attempts to portray me and those like me as less of a person because of what I believe. To me, it equates to you sacrificing my contentment for your personal self-satisfaction at having struck a blow against us heathens. Your actions thus go against my beliefs as my existence apparently goes against yours.