Why does a good God promote suffering?

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Good - I'm glad it's incorrect. I'll pass that on to togre.

However, that's Paul speaking, whom you may think was talking on God's behalf, but whom I think was just one of many Christian thinkers trying to formulate a rational interpretation of a rather inconsistent set of apparent injunctions.

If he's right, he's contradicting - or at least putting a pretty unexpected spin on - Jesus' statement that no one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but through Himself.

But more importantly, from my point of view, he's giving a huge advantage to those who are 'a law unto themselves', who get into Heaven by essentially having been 'good people', without ever having committed to Christ. I mean - that's not fair. Under those circumstances, a lot of people would get in, had they not been labouring under the huge disadvantage of being born after 30BC and within the influence of the Christian church. That's a much easier route into Heaven.

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Plato is in Heaven, I bet. Can you imagine it - a fascist tea time for the soul?

I once asked the same question, what about all the "souls" before christ. he said they were in something called "abraham's bossom" waiting for christ in after life so they could chose to accept him or not when he arrived. LMFAO! wtf? abrahams bossom? HA! Man they really thought this one through didn't they. Gotta love them christian "scholars" I mean. If you want to talk truth, especially academically you are pretty much gonna have to leave christianity out of it. It is essentially intellectual suicide to become a Christian. And that's a sin friends. And a non redeemable one too i suppose, suicide...

What's suicide around here, libernaut, is to say that it is intellectual suicide to become a Christian. God help us if we should say anything against the Christians.

to teach us a lesson

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Originally Posted by Bessie11

to teach us a lesson

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In case no-one knows this: I am an adult.

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Originally Posted by thebagman

I don't know. God sent his only son? That's a joke. So what, he was crucified and then he died and now he's in heaven but in the end Jesus is only one guy! He may be the big man's only son but he is still one guy. What about the suffering the rest of us endures? What about the suffering endured by those affected by religious war or conflict? And all those people who came before Jesus, they're all going to hell!? How is that fair?

"Oh oops, I forget about them," says God.

And what is original sin again? Wasn't that when Adam decided to eat an apple in the Garden of Eden or something? And now we have to suffer for all eternity unless we pass some sort of entrance examination? What exactly is sin? What is Adam eating an apple supposed to symbolize? Aren't apples supposed to be good for you?

Why doe's God choose to lump us into one big group when we are individuals who cannot be expected to take responsibility for the actions of others?

My original question everyone tried to ignore or didn't notice: What about wars? Are we allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God? Are we allowed to fight in God's name?

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i think No. we are not allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God. but what if other try to impose war and you have to defend yourself and your country? than God says fight and kill. there are so many systems human invented. but all fails. no classes. no difference. every system fails. i concluded there should b a system which God made and want human to impose on earth.
Adam's error was just the reason to send us on earth. and in quran God says go on earth, and when adam ask apology God forgave him and said on earth there is some benifit for you as well. so if any one come to you and says the right things to do follow him. from adam to Muhammad Allah sent 124,ooo mesengers. code of conducts was different with every messenger. but the real objective was same. which is the biggest sin. that is to find and understand there is only One God. God of all universes and mankind, in chapter Luqman, God catogorizes the biggest sins. when Luqman teaches his son starting from verse no 13 you can see yourself

1. Alif*Lâm*Mîm.

2. These are Verses of the Wise Book (the Qur'ân).

3. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinûn (good*doers)

4. Those who perform As*Salât (Iqamat*as- Salât) and give Zakât(alms) and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty(argument).

5. Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful.

6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery.
For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).

7. And when Our Verses are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
8. Verily, those who believe and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens of delight (Paradise).

9. To abide therein. It is a Promise of Allâh in truth. And He is the All*Mighty, the All*Wise.

10. He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see
and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.
And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds.

And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.

11. This is the creation of Allâh.

So show Me that which those (whom you worship), besides Him have created.

Nay,

the Zâlimûn (those who do not believe in the Oneness of Allâh,polytheists etc) are in plain error.


12. And indeed We bestowed upon Luqmân Al*Hikmah (wisdom) saying:
"Give thanks to Allâh," and whoever gives thanks, he gives thanks for (the good of) his ownself.
And whoever is unthankful, then verily, Allâh is All*Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.

13. And (remember) when Luqmân said to his son when he was advising him:

"O my son! Join not in worship others with Allâh.

Verily! Joining others in worship with Allâh is a great Zûlm (wrong.sin) indeed.

14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents.

His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years

give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience.

Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.



16. "O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allâh will bring it forth.

Verily, Allâh is Subtle (in bringing out that grain), Well*Aware (of its place).



17. "O my son! Aqim*is*Salât (perform As*Salât),
- enjoin (people) for Al*Ma'rûf (all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al*Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allâh, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad),

- and bear with patience whatever befall you.

Verily! These are work of big courage.

18. - "And turn not your face away from men with pride,

- nor walk in insolence through the earth.

Verily, Allâh likes not each arrogant boaster.

19. - "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice.

Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the donkey."
20. See you not (O men) that Allâh has subjected for you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and has completed and perfected His Graces upon you, (both) apparent and hidden?

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As a sort of hint as to how one might approach a discussion like this, if the chap you're talking to doesn't believe in God, it's not terribly persuasive to quote God - and it's even less persuasive to cite what someone says God said.

Just trying to save you a lot of typing...

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Originally Posted by usman.khawar

i think No. we are not allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God. but what if other try to impose war and you have to defend yourself and your country? than God says fight and kill. there are so many systems human invented. but all fails. no classes. no difference. every system fails. i concluded there should b a system which God made and want human to impose on earth.
Adam's error was just the reason to send us on earth. and in quran God says go on earth, and when adam ask apology God forgave him and said on earth there is some benifit for you as well. so if any one come to you and says the right things to do follow him. from adam to Muhammad Allah sent 124,ooo mesengers. code of conducts was different with every messenger. but the real objective was same. which is the biggest sin. that is to find and understand there is only One God. God of all universes and mankind, in chapter Luqman, God catogorizes the biggest sins. when Luqman teaches his son starting from verse no 3 you can see yourself

1. Alif*Lâm*Mîm.

2. These are Verses of the Wise Book (the Qur'ân).

3. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinûn (good*doers)

4. Those who perform As*Salât (Iqamat*as- Salât) and give Zakât(alms) and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty(argument).

5. Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful.

6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery.
For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).

7. And when Our Verses are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
8. Verily, those who believe and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens of delight (Paradise).

9. To abide therein. It is a Promise of Allâh in truth. And He is the All*Mighty, the All*Wise.

10. He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see
and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.
And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds.

And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.

11. This is the creation of Allâh.

So show Me that which those (whom you worship), besides Him have created.

Nay,

the Zâlimûn (those who do not believe in the Oneness of Allâh,polytheists etc) are in plain error.


12. And indeed We bestowed upon Luqmân Al*Hikmah (wisdom) saying:
"Give thanks to Allâh," and whoever gives thanks, he gives thanks for (the good of) his ownself.
And whoever is unthankful, then verily, Allâh is All*Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.

13. And (remember) when Luqmân said to his son when he was advising him:

"O my son! Join not in worship others with Allâh.

Verily! Joining others in worship with Allâh is a great Zûlm (wrong.sin) indeed.

14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents.

His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years

give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience.

Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.



16. "O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allâh will bring it forth.

Verily, Allâh is Subtle (in bringing out that grain), Well*Aware (of its place).



17. "O my son! Aqim*is*Salât (perform As*Salât),
- enjoin (people) for Al*Ma'rûf (all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al*Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allâh, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad),

- and bear with patience whatever befall you.

Verily! These are work of big courage.

18. - "And turn not your face away from men with pride,

- nor walk in insolence through the earth.

Verily, Allâh likes not each arrogant boaster.

19. - "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice.

Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the donkey."
20. See you not (O men) that Allâh has subjected for you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and has completed and perfected His Graces upon you, (both) apparent and hidden?

...................

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

According to Romans 2:14ff, "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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You need to keep reading. Paul's point is that the Jews having the Law of God in writing didn't place them in a special class. Both Jews and Gentiles (everyone not a Jew) need to be "good." But does that assume anyone achieves this goodness? Consider Paul in Romans chapter 3

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and
bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their
eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


The purpose of God's Law, whether written in the Bible or found in the hearts of men, is never going to be a "How To Please God" guide or manual. It serves like a mirror. It doesn't matter how pretty I feel, when I look in the mirror I'm confronted by the truth--a zit. It doesn't matter how "good" I think I am, when I look in the Law (compare my actions and attitudes to what God expects) I see failure.

How is God pleased? How does anyone attain the goodness (righteousness) that God requires? It is given, not earned.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,a through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Note also how clearly Paul excludes the possibility that anyone is good enough on their own.

This is straying alot into What is sin? and What is good? and questions like that. I'm game for discussing these (as my time permits) but is this thread the best place?

A vain god pleases vain people, why wouldn't he?

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Originally Posted by togre

You need to keep reading.

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I agree with you, but my point was that God will judge accordingly. He is able to judge the heart for those who never had a chance to know Christ....or the Law, whether due to location, circumstance, or era. No matter what He chooses to do, I am assured that He will judge righteously.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

I agree with you, but my point was that God will judge accordingly. He is able to judge the heart for those who never had a chance to know Christ....or the Law, whether due to location, circumstance, or era. No matter what He chooses to do, I am assured that He will judge righteously.

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I am not so assured.

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Originally Posted by G L Wilson

I am not so assured.

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That doesn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

As a sort of hint as to how one might approach a discussion like this, if the chap you're talking to doesn't believe in God, it's not terribly persuasive to quote God - and it's even less persuasive to cite what someone says God said.

Just trying to save you a lot of typing...

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appreciated as you are trying to save time. yes i know the person who dont beleive in God i should not quote God. We see that this thread name is " why does a good God promote suffering" and also i answered for bagman.

now i m returning your good argument to you , like gonna try to save you a lot of time as here in this thread(Why a good God) there is no athiest expected.
if any athiest like we can discuss in the thread " why i beleive in God" , well this thread name should be " why i beleive in God , why i dont beleive in God "
i also invite you to read this once and discuss with me, and give your good arguments to improve my knowledge http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=63002

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

That doesn't surprise me.

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What surprises me is that you are so assured.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Incorrect....
According to Romans 2:14ff, "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Those who did not have the Law of Moses, but still acted in a righteous manner, were a law unto themselves.

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That is true, but so there were no need for the sacrifice of Jesus...