The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Example of correct translation of Bach's own (ahemm!) words

Guido De Winne wrote (January 30, 2004):

During 1720 Bach made fair copies of the works for unaccompanied violin, and must have been preparing the Brandenburg Concertos, whose autograph full score was dedicated on 24 March 1721 to the Margrave Christian Ludwig, before whom Bach had played in Berlin while negotiating for the new Cöthen harpsichord, between June 1718 and March 1719. What he played is not known; but he was invited to send in some compositions. As he himself said he took ‘a couple of years’ over this commission, and then submitted six works written to exploit the resources of Cöthen. Such resources do not seem to have been available to the Margrave of Brandenburg, and it is not really surprising that he did not thank Bach, send a fee or use the score
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert,

The correct translation of "schiks" is "sends" (alternatively "mails", "posts", "delivers by courrier").

"Presented" is wrong and misleading at best (its outright fraud imo but so is almost everything concerning Handel/Bach) whereas "dedicated" is, as already said, aestheticaly better but stil wrong, misleading etc.

The use of a wrong and misleading translation by two different british Handel/Bach scholars furthermore is indicative of a pattern, confirmed finally by ...

...your refusal to:

-address in detail (instead of "empty" -ie beside the point-answers, a sentence by sentence commentary, as I often did on your posts on Mozart) issues raised by me, such as Bach's systematic use of Handel's music (Brocke's passion, post #122)

-provide-previously asked for-british "original sources ple-e-ease"

-challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel

-satisfactorily explain, much like all other musicologists, Bach's inherent influences of french-italian-bohemian music.

Regards.

Yanni has asked about -

''Bach's systematic use of Handel's music''.

Goodness, Yanni, you are really a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is yet another work credited to Handel. The facts are that it is widely recognised to be very difficult to attribute it to Handel. It was first set to music not by GF Handel nor even by JS Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this for yourself before you make a bigger fool of yourself ? And this was later set to music by another composer, Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever remotely associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two different composers who, (just by one of those remarkable coincidences !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. It seems to have escaped you. Nor do you know 3 operas associated with the same Keiser had been stolen and used by G.F. Handel before he, Handel, ever came to England !! In fact before Handel ever left Germany. That has also escaped you. It is yet another chapter of musical history that seems to have escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at its perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture of what is happening yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works over years) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. In fact Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed as everyone knows. The works of Antonio Vivaldi are only one such example. There are literally dozens of well known examples. They are even available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was STILL being attributed to the same Keiser and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start). This now being credited by others to GF Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the other 'Handel' work !

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at each and every stage of his career (as repeatedly said) quantities of operatic and church music from numerous other composers - (even when these works have a history of being attributed to Keiser, to Telemann and others) we must blame this growing nonsense on the Kapellmeister of Leipzig, J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!! And the worst thing is it's really not your fault. I am giving you my considered view of these facts, having said from the start that composers of the 18th century, and specially those who have iconic status in the 'history of music' were being artificially manufactured. Of which the musical career of G.F. Handel is but one example. That 'machine' was operating in Bach's own lifetime and continued to operate in the case of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart, and even Ludwig van Beethoven. Since the evidence is already growing in the case of Handel it is for you to decide whether it has any relevance to your Bach/Handel theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_...eature=related

Anyone going thru http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm can see that Handel's biography is but an unsuccessful effort to separate Handel/Bach into two individual persons.

Whatever Handel composed, created, copied or conducted, Bach did, so your attacks against Handel are in fact reflected on Bach (his own life story full of attempts to find a better paying master, just like Handel) and it was I who first mentioned the unknown Telemann.

But, do not interupt your attempt to keep you baloon up: Please proceed to answer whatever more you can afford from my previous.

Ta-ta!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni has asked about -

Bach's systematic use of Handel's music.

Goodness, Yanni, you are a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in any detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is another work credited to Handel which was first set to music not by Handel or even by Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this before you make a fool of yourself ? And it was later set to music by Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two composers who, (just by a remarkable coincidence !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. Nor do you know 3 of this same Keiser's operas were stolen and used by Handel before he ever came to England !! That fact also has escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at their perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed. The works of Vivaldi are only one example. There are dozens of such examples. They are available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard there while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was still being attributed to the same Hamburg KEISER and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start as we have seen above). This now being credited by others to Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the 'Handel' work.

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at every stage of his career quantities of operatic and church music from various other composers - even when it already has a history of being attributed to Keiser, Telemann and others we must blame this nonsense on J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_...eature=related

---

I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

---

Yes, and if Beethoven said so, it must be true, right Yanni ? The same Beethoven who said Mozart must have written 'his' Requiem (although it was proved in 1825 to be by numerous other composers including Michael Haydn of Salzburg).

The same Beethoven who, in 1783, as a 13 year old boy, was recruited and cared for by the same fraternities who had patronised Mozart. Who patronised his family (courtesy of the British Empire). And the child prodigy described in the Illuminati publication 'Cramer's Magazine' (of that same year) as 'the next Mozart'.

With such 'evidences' we can only laugh Beethoven's standard endorsement of the legendary Handel. Must be Count Waldstein and his close association with occultists at Dux and elsewhere. Casanova must be laughing.

You really should listen to music by Beethoven's contemporaries - almost none of whom are recorded or performed. As usual.

Take George Onslow (1784-1853), for example. 'George...who' ?? As famous as Beethoven during Beethoven's lifetime in Vienna and in Berlin and across Europe but airbrushed out of the 'history of music'. With all the rest. What's new ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

---

May I remind you that this thread (on Handel and JSBach being the same person) still awaits the rest of your answers as above (post#139)?

If you find this is too difficult to do, just challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel.

PS For Beethoven I suggest you google for "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" and then laugh if you must.

Yanni,

Most who read this thread will see the sum total of your argument (saying G.F. Handel was J.S. Bach and vice versa !) is based on no musical evidence nor even a single musical manuscript but a coincidence of dates, these crushed and spun inside your brain with the added fact (strangely denied by you) that fraternities were controlling western music - a fact anyone can agree with. And which involved clans such as Cocchi's (and many others) of which I'm aware. Beyond all doubt the career of G.F. Handel was massively manufactured at every stage. For reasons that require us to know a little more of the history of those times.

This manufacturing of famous musical careers became very common in the 18th century. It was part of the control of music as an emerging cultural and academic industry. It was a feature of the so-called 'enlightenment'. It later involved the writing of 'music history' as we know it. With the assistance of many music editors, the works of other composers whose names and careers are today largely forgotten, corrupt patrons, publishers and the usual Vaticanised control of a now 'secularised' world. And those who were not part of this system were marginalised, forgotten and suppressed from the pages of what is read and taught. This is fact. And Handel, Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven are examples of manufactured composers. I think any fair minded reader can see this. Mozart is a prime example.

Anyway, thank you. You should do more on the Cocchi clan and on the role of other manipulators of reality. It's a subject now being increasingly studied.

Handel learned that he, as a 'protestant composer' could still depend on the full support of Rome and Venice (supported by numerous cardinals and popes) in an age of ruthless biogtry and prejudice. Which fact you find easy to gloss over, as usual. You should add the influence of Britain, Rome and Venice.

The difficulty is only of not seeing the wood for the trees. You might try reading more history of these times and starting again. Because although I find nothing at all in your Handel/Bach idea there is value in your research and I think you have some idea of the scale of deliberate misinformation that is ours to expose simply by being honest.

A composer of tremendous talent -

Jan Dismas Zelenka
(1679-1745)
"Missa Votiva" in E Minor ZWV18 - Mov. 7-9/20 (1739)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1bGV...eature=related


Best wishes

Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

Any wall we survive intact makes us stronger.

We cannot prove a negative. But we can prove a positive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

The so-called 'Mozart' arrangement of 'Handel's' Oratorium 'Der Messias' is not by W.A. Mozart. It is by Joseph Starzer (1726-87) and others including Andrea Luchesi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

---

If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

Yanni,

I am not in the habit of going round and round in circles. Starzer was Starzer. He was not Josef Haydn. Starzer died before Josef Haydn came to London. Josef Haydn was Josef Haydn. If Starzer was not Starzer you can waste your time in inventing the idea that he was Ronald Macdonald. Starzer was (I must tell you) Starzer. That is who he was. And Starzer was not Mozart. Nor was Mozart Starzer. He was Mozart. And Bach was Bach. Bach was not Starzer also. Nor was he Mozart. And, as for Handel, he was not Mozart, nor was he Starzer, and nor was he Bach or Haydn. He was Handel.

I am so glad we sorted that out !!

And, if not....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRbOjqOSYs&feature=fvw

:driving:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

---

Unless you change your habits, Robert, you'll never manage to surface from underneath the already characterized Grove-ling pile.

Furthermore:

-You just can't quote and approve one day Dennis Pajot (http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297! and http://www.talkclassical.com/1621-di...ly-master.html, ), on Mozart copying or borrowing Haydn's "Bach" adaptations, and next blame me for reaching the same conclusion following another road (my timeline, not music), while changing your own previous tune to "Starzer did it" just to contradict me. Awfully rude manners (or perhaps Dr Alzheimer is to blame)!

-Have you perhaps concluded in the meantime thru original research that Joseph Starzer adapted or arranged "Handel-Mozart's Messiah" of 1803? Have you ever published or announced even such discovery to your fellow musicologists? Do tell us, ple-e-ase!

Apart from his 1757-176?' service in Russia (a highly indicative and suspect period, a highly critical post) Starzer has practically no biography* and the few works attributed to him are not significant enough to qualify him as Handel/Bach's succesor ie arranger! He may have nevertheless existed and may even have participated in performances of said adaptations somehow, somewhere, but that's all I am afraid!

Moreover:

You have already graced yourself aplenty by not being able to provide a single date (well sourced) when Bach was someplace else than Handel and the fact that at van Swieten's only Handel/Bach was played "graces" your dogmatic obstinacy even more, again "musicaly"!

For van Swieten's relations to Mozart, Haydn, Waldstein, Beethoven, the Bonn circle, the "Koch" music archive etc etc, see "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" (http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=54106&page=8) and earlier threads.

Ta-ta!

*Starzer is also on record for his ballet works and cooperation with Angiolini (or Giuseppe Canziani): Google for them in last thread above!