As usual I'm behind. I haven't read it yet. I'll jump in as soon as I can, but don't wait for me.
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As usual I'm behind. I haven't read it yet. I'll jump in as soon as I can, but don't wait for me.
I agree with that assessment and observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Dark Muse, I read your post last night and thought it was excellent. I just was way too tired (it was 3 AM here!) to respond. Glad you jumped right in and posted the passages to discuss. Thanks so much for that.Quote:
One of the things that really struck me about her, and perhaps contributed to my feelings toward her, is the fact that she came off as being both a very strong woman as well as independent. And in many ways, she does admit her own faults.
True - a more modern thinking woman perhaps and one has to consider the time this is set in. Women were not known to work if they were married unless they were established authors or artists. I felt she was somewhat like Lawrence's own wife, who was known to have a few affairs, here and there in their marriage, but felt it was nothing that affected their marriage or love for each other. That is questionable on Lawrence's end but it seemed her attitude was more liberated, although I don't personally subscribe to infidelity. So, in this story I think Lawrence is merely exploring that idea and the fact that eventually the wife returns home and does have some feelings of resentment and being left out of her husband's life. It sets up an interesting case to look at. True she can see her own faults. She later says that she could not do the things that his secretary does for him. I don't think the wife is practical minded at all or does any bit of work. She's much like a 'kept woman', enjoying the benefits of her husband's income, but that always does have it's downside.
Very much so, and 'sardonic' and 'cynicism' are a good words. I was gropping for words that would describe her cynicism and her remarks. This is why I said this story reminded me of a Chekhov story - he often is sardonic and cynical when describing the thoughts of a person or viewing people.Quote:
I must admit that I also do enjoy her sardonic cynicism
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I really enjoyed the passage. I liked the contrast it showed between the two. The husband in grey England, while the wife, away in the sun. I also like the way in which while the wife is perceived here as being rather gay and vibrant, the husband is seen as being more grim and dreary
Good observation - good contrast. It seems to me they both are somewhat in a state of 'inertia' in the marriage, although she takes the step to try and escape it. Apparently, when she does so, she can't really leave her life behind; it trails along with her, even if she tries to shut out thoughts of him. We will get to those passages, later on. Yes, she seeks the sun - strange since the story following this one, is similar in that the wife leaves the gray existence, which is restrictive and stagnant, with her huband in the states, and then gravitates to warmer, sunnier climates. It seems that in the next story, Lawrence advances the characters to find the 'sun' and the healing powers, it can provide. In this story we see only the bitter conflict.
Lawrence really had a thing for describing eyes. He often even changes the color of one character's eyes somewhat, throughtout the story, to depict a mood or a change. It is an interesting thing to observe. I wonder if anyone has ever done a study or a thesis on 'eyes' in Lawrence's literature. In one book I read, he described the eyes of this man, who was more 'blood conscious', and a sort of wandering gypsy performer in threater group, as yellow; I am referring to the novel "The Lost Girl". I think in 'The Fox' he also used the image of yellow eyes. Do these depict the sun, do you think? I recall mention of it often, in "The Plumed Serpent". I want to throw this in now, so I don't forget it. I read in a letter, while researching for this story, that when Lawrence's publisher suggested that name for the novel "The Plumed Serpent", Lawrence made the remark in a letter that he thought it was a silly name. He originally was going to entitle the novel "Quentzalcoatl", the name for the lost sun god in Mexico. The publisher did not like the name at all, so Lawrence relented. That is just a little tidbit, I thought of interest. Many of Lawrence's stories and novels were renamed by others or his publishers. No wonder he became cynical and annoyed at so many people. I say leave the author to his own concepts and titles!Quote:
Though I did find it interesting the fact that the wife's eyes are described as being grey as well, while is gazing upon her admirer with her thoughts turning back to her husband.
That is quite interesting. I think that men can be 'caddy' at times, just the same as women, but you are right - it has been a term assigned solely to women, mostly since men tagged them! ;) :lol:. Battle of the sexes ensues once again....hahaha....Hey, DM, now we women are outnumbered on this thread again, unless Pensive shows up to even things out.:DQuote:
First of all, I just loved the fact that he was described as being catty here, sense such is a term most often used to refer to women. And I loved the whimsical description. I found something almost charming in this passage.
Let me further comment on those quoted lines:
I do notice this is entirely from the wife's opinion, but I do like that she is saying this. Then she turns it to whimsy and to her husband as being adorable when whimsical...interesting. In one paragraph, she is criticising him, and then by the end, she is admiring him. In fact, she is defending him by the last statement. She is basically saying it is not his fault for being vain; women made him that way. This paragraph is quite intricate and 'telling' of the wife's truer impressions of her huband.Quote:
You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible handsome, clear-cut mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome clear-cut histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.
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I just love these lines.
Then I will requote these lines and I love them, too:Quote:
I really liked this passage. It displays a certain kind of intimacy which exists between a man and his secretary for the special sort of relationship they have together. The secretary is seen as being in some sort of awe over the man whom dictates to her while she gives him a special importance.
It is true too, and probably why so many bosses go for their secretaries or have affairs with them; sometimes they actually marry them, but most times not...that would ruin the whole deal. The secretary is in a position of 'unconditional' love and respect for the man. Maybe, it is not true love, but it is devotion and attentiveness. What wife can possible fill those shoes, all of the time? Unrealistic! The husband/secretary relationship is a unique one and often it leads to illicit affairs or breakups in the marriage. The wife does usually know, to begin with and ignores it. I think back to our US president, FDR; it was common knowlegde he had affairs with his secretary, until he became disabled. His wife knew. She was home raising the kids and how could she find time to listen to every little thing her husband said or wrote down? Yet to the day he died they professed to love one another, and they did stick it out and stay together. From what I understand, his disability changed him and so the relationship finally had a chance, but then who really knows? At least after that they came to some kind of mutal understanding of each other and respect and better communication.Quote:
That is best of a secretary. She may have a husband, but a husband is the mere shred of a man, compared to a boss, a chief, a man who dictates to you and whose words you faithfully write down and then transcribe. Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her! But a secretary! Every and and but of his she preserves for ever. Where are candied violets in comparison.
I do too, and I requote them here:Quote:
I particularly like
Exactly! Lawrence even complained about having to retype "David" which his wife, Frieda, had typed for him, filling in for his usual typist. He was grumbling and annoyed, just about the time he was also writing this story. I think that comes through in this story. What wife could take on the secretary job realistically???Quote:
Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her!
Requoting your lines:
Absolutely! It can go both ways though. Lots of men don't pay any attention to what their wives say, either. It is a universal and timeless joke or observation. Men are different than women; that is for certain! Obviously, this particular couple did not have a good communication, but then that may have been, because of the time this story was set in. Still many don't to this day. Communication takes work and attention.Quote:
To me there is a certain humor here, for it is a rather timeless joke, the fact that women are so often portrayed as not paying attention to their husbands or listening to them.
Quote by Virgil:
Virgil, that is ok, but try and catch up soon, so you don't repeat what we say. I am dying for you to be in this discussion. It should add a lot to the interpretation.Quote:
As usual I'm behind. I haven't read it yet. I'll jump in as soon as I can, but don't wait for me.
oh shoot, you guys have already got started on the new story?
how many pages is it?
SleepyWitch, I am so sorry; I nearly forgot about you joining our group. I only posted the 'introduction' last night...one day ahead of schedule...I was being pressured to do so...all these anxious participants;) . When I mentioned the 'girls against the guys' in my post to Dark Muse, I forgot you were also planning on joining in. If Pensive arrives, we girls will outnumber the guys.;) If not we are even. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Don't worry; you can catch up easily now. We did not get far into the story yet, and we start (in this thread) with the beginning passages, and progress as we go along. It is less confusing that way, and we can see just how the story builds.
Did you read the story yet? If not the story is about 10, 11, 12 pages - I can't seem to find that part of my book, that fell off the binding (the ending pages)...it is somewhere here hiding from me. The story is not a terribly long one to read, and it is comprised of much 'snappy, witty' dialogue, which makes it go quickly. You will enjoy it. The wife is sort of 'witchy' at times and very humorous. :D Enjoy your reading!:) It is an interesting story.
Yes I agree wit this, and in fact she herself says how incompotent she really is, and this seems to be a source of sone of her resentment, the fact that she knows she could never do the things for her husband that the secerety can and the fact that perhaps in someways she feels a burdon becasue she knows she is not good for any sort of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
There are simillar aspcets to the last story in this one I think. As it seems in someways the wife does leave and get away from her husband to escape the fact that there is an asepct of her husbands life she can never truly be a part of and she does not want to have to live with that every day. So she goes away to distract herself.
Yes, this is very true, and I liked the part where it said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Though they cannot stand to acutally be together, they are still forever bonded to each other. They can never completely escape one another.Quote:
They had the most sincere regard for one another, and felt, in some odd way, eternally married to one another.
That is indeed interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, that is a very good point. Her conflict with her feelings for her husband can be seen in her view of him here. And the fact that she did turn her slight around to compliment him, as well the last line in which she does justify him by finding the fault in the other women, can reflect some of her views reguarding the secerety and her relation to her husband.
Yes that is very true, and another interesting thing, is that it does mention within the story, how much the husband and wife had gotten along so well before they were married, but now that they are married they only seem to serve to irritate each other. The wife contemplates how she herself can find other men enjoyable and yet not her own husband whom she sees still as being very handsome, and yet she still thinks of him, when she is having her affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I also found this passage interesting
Though they are still married, this brought to mind the sentiment, and relationship that sometimes seem to exisit between divorced couples whom seem to still get along and care for each and yet can never manage to live with each other.Quote:
So they remained friends, in the awful unspoken intimacy of the once-married. Usually each year they went away together for a holiday, and if they had not been man and wife they would have found a great deal of fun and stimulation in one another. The fact that they were married, had been married for the last dozen years, and couldn't live togehter for the last three or four, spoilt them for one another. Each had a private feeling of bitterness about the other.
Yes, that is very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
ok 12 pages sounds managabel :) but I can only copy the story at univ tomorrow. heheh, but the time difference between Europa and America gives me a little head start :)
SleepWitch,Yes, but doesn't the time difference go the other way? Isn't it later there now than here - it is 5:16 PM here right now. If you are in Europe then it is later there, right? Anyway, when I recently printed out the Chekhov stories, I reduced them in my Word program - I used Ariel 10pt and they came down to a few less pages. You might try that, to save money, or are photocopies free at your university? I have my own printer, but did not want to waste too much ink, on each story. Good luck and hope you can read the story soon. You can catch up easily. I don't think Virgil read it yet either. We will try to go along slowly till everyone is present.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Maybe I'm getting ahead myself here, but I can't get over the ending. The last two stories end with a reconciliation, but where the previous one was effected through "blood consciousness" this one is reached through derision and sarcasm. The "Blind Man" conclusion is a typical instance of the rejuvenating power in "blood consciousness." This one, however, I don't know what to make of. It seems odd that Lawrence would use the caustic banter of the wife to heal their relationship. Isn't that un-Lawrencelike?
Quark, not sure how to answer this. I do think if you knew more of Lawrence's personal life/biography, you would see he often was pretty caustic or could be. He was never really 'mean' to my knowledge, but he could lash back with witty cynisism to his enemies (and he had a few) and to his public and publishers. I don't think the story surprised me, nearly as much as it has you. I think that, if we take it from the beginning and not jump too far ahead yet, (SleepWitch is still reading it and so is Virgil;) ) we should take a slow look at the whole story and how it develops and see where that ending does lead us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
This story might be just what was stated in something I read earlier - 'a sketch' - in other words, a window into someone's personal life and relationship. The outcome? I really don't know yet. I am hoping that Virgil has some ideas on it. I don't think this story relies much on the 'blood consciousness' ideas we have seen in previous stories....not all do explore that idea. It is more like Chekhov, just showing us the bare facts of what is going on and leaving the conclusion for us to draw. I honestly had a hard time writing up a short description of this story. I can't wait till Virgil joins in and also will be interested in others comments; but I think we should discuss this as the story unravels and worry about the outcome and ending later on. We have a whole month to discuss this story and it is not that long a one.
SPOILERSQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
So you don't see this as against the grain for Lawrence? This story was definitely much different from last story. That isn't to say that plot was different. That was almost the same: marriage interrupted by an interloper (Bertie, Wexall) which eventually leads to reconciliation. What differs dramatically (well, besides the tone) is the resolution. This story seems to skip over where the reconciliation scene was in the last story. When she sees the bluebirds in the garden I thought here we go again. We're going to have this connection scene in the midst of nature. But, read further, and no there's no such scene here. Instead, it moves into the last conversation in which the one bluebird sarcastically derides the other and drives her off. This caught me a little by surprise. It did seem like an odd departure from what I had come to expect.
Sorry to jump ahead. The ending was just the first thing that came to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Where is our other Lawrence guru anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"The Two Bluebirds" does have a sort of Chekhov-like sparseness of detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Janine, Quark, DarkMuse.. Great posts... I took a lot of the same ideas from the story as you mentioned already DM....
Quark, do you think in either story there was any real reconciliation at the end... I mean, the last story, only the main character Maurice, is content.. his wife is perplexed, and Bertie is destroyed... this story, The wife has done her ill work, and is satisfied with herself, but the secretary is distraught, and the husband I think is for the most part somewhat annoyed...
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By DarkMuse Yes I agree wit this, and in fact she herself says how incompotent she really is, and this seems to be a source of sone of her resentment, the fact that she knows she could never do the things for her husband that the secerety can and the fact that perhaps in someways she feels a burdon becasue she knows she is not good for any sort of work.
There are simillar aspcets to the last story in this one I think. As it seems in someways the wife does leave and get away from her husband to escape the fact that there is an asepct of her husbands life she can never truly be a part of and she does not want to have to live with that every day. So she goes away to distract herself.
Oh I agee with this too... and the similarity of the wives knowing there is an aspect of their husbands they do not have access to, and seemingly cannot.. but in the last one it was on a deep level, that blood-conscious level... this one it is more of a vanity, an external thing, an illusion, that they put between themselves I think.... she can't be part of it, partly because she thinks it is beneath her,, and she doesn't want to be.. I don't think she is overly interested in her husband outside of the fact he is her husband...
but back to the beginning... I love how Lawrence starts this almost as a fairytale... when the story is so far from a fairytale... "There was a woman who loved her husband---"... just add, "Once upon a time" before that and we have a fairytale... :D .. You don't often see stories beginning with the words, "there was" at least outside of fantasy... And Lawrence uses this kind of fantasy beginning, this simple statement, to great effect in introducing the story... I do find it interesting how he tells the story as though it almost were a fairytale... Does anyone else see that or am I off my rocker (it has been getting kind of rickety recently so I wouldn't be surprised :p )???
And these lines as well from the start impressed me, and gave me a feel for the essence of the relationship
"So they remained friends, in the awful unspoken intimacy of the once-married."
it is quite the cynical statement about the wonders of marriage... as though a friend is the best one could hope for, never a lover, definitely never a passionate lover.. he almost puts an exclamation point on that with this line... they have this conscious intimacy that needs no words, but it is more of a trouble than a good thing coming out of a great love... they love each other at a distance, but as he states later in that same paragraph, they both have private feelings of bitterness towards the other... so it seems they love an idealized version of the other they have in their minds, and can't handle the real, living version when they are together... the wife's idle thoughts about the nature of her husband kind of seem idealistic, idyllic, in a sense... and she only thinks that at a distance... but I think that proximity, and nearness, physical intimacy sour this for her with him, she finds he doesn't live up to that idyllic perfection she builds up in her mind while apart....
I also found it very interesting, that while talking of her love affairs, and paramours, right after she speaks of:
"When a man has an adoring secretary, and you are the man's wife, what are you to do? Not that there was anything 'wrong' - if you know what I mean! - between them. Nothing you could call adultery, to come down to brass tacks. No, no! They were just the young master and his secretary. He dictated to her, she slaved for him and adored him, and the whole thing went on wheels."
so it is okay for her to be adulterous, but not for him??? that is an interesting idea and definitely a very one sided morality...
well, that's a far into the story as I'll go tonight... I need a real sleep tonight,.. for once...:D I look forward to everyone's continued thoughts...
Seriously, I have read enough Lawrence material by now, that I don't see this story against the grain of Lawrence, at all. I guess you have be looking at it from my viewpoint. I don't think Lawrence always ends a story with a solution or reconciliation and if you are expecting that to happen it just doesn't in many of the short stories and sometimes in the novels, as well. We can work up to the ending and talk about the significance of those bluebirds when we get to them. I thought the last line curious and still don't know exactly how to take it. I don't want to jump to that yet...ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Yeah....grrrr...it is only April 1st and you are giving away the ending already. I don't see the word 'spoiler' above your post either. Two or three people had not read the story yet.Quote:
Sorry to jump ahead. The ending was just the first thing that came to mind.
Well, I am wondering just where anybody is tonight, let alone Virgil, the 'Lawrence guru'....that is a good name for him!:lol: I thought you guys were all pressuring me to get started, and I was tired last night, but posted the intro anyway.... and now no one seems to be here. Where is everyone - speechless? I think, personally, I am going to call it a night and go read in bed. I am super tired out, anyway. I didn't even watch a movie tonight - and that is highly unusual.Quote:
Where is our other Lawrence guru anyway?
"The Two Bluebirds" does have a sort of Chekhov-like sparseness of detail.[/QUOTE]
I thought so too, but I thought the sadonic tone and the wit reminded me of a Chekhov story. I think that the short story by Lawrence 'Things' - one of my favorites, also has a sort of wit and irony to it. It was the first one we did here, but really we did not discuss it very well. I wish we could redo that discussion. There were not enough participants at the time and it got glazed over. You should read 'Things' Quark, I think you would like it. I also think others who missed it would find it of interest. It is a good story and moves quickly.
Yes, that is true, but than she does have those couple of moments where she seems almost annoyed with her husband that he does not acutally give more intimacy to his seceretray for all she does for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
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That girl-she was only twenty-eight-really slaved herself to skin and bone. She was small and neat, but she was acutally worn out. She did far more work than he did, for she had not only to take those words he uttered, she had to type them out, make three copies, while he was resting.
"What on earth she gets out of it" thought the wife, "I don't know. She's simply worn to the bone for a very poor salery, and he's never kissed her, and never will, if I know anything about him"
Wheather his never kissing her-the secretary, that is-made it worse or better, the wife did not decide. He never kissed anybody. Whether she herself - the wife, that is- wanted to be kissed by him, even that she was not clear about. She rather thought she didn't
Some of the wifes agitation seems to be over the devotion that the women give to her husband, without seeming to get any real benfit in return from him. Though in part this could be, becasue she knows she herself would never be so selflessly devoted to him in such a way. And that she would be incapable of working for him.Quote:
"A very different way!" said the wife ironicaly. "Why don't you make him think about you?" she added, with a sort of a drawl. "On a soft spring afternoon like this, you ought to have him dicating poems to you, about the blue birds of happiness fluttering round your dainty little feet. I know I would, if I were his scretary"
BOO!!! :lol:
Just thought I'd say hello and scare ya'll to see me here! Thought I was dead didn't you?
Not nearly as far behind as I am...in fact, I am not even in the running!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey,grace - BOO, yourself!!! Where have you been hiding? I have been thinking about your lately and wondered where you ran off to. Hey, you should read this story and join the discussion. It is a very short story. We have to talk soon on IM. I miss our late night conversations. Of course, I did not think you were dead - oh horrors! Perish the thought. You probably have been up to no good. I must hear about it all and university life.Quote:
Originally Posted by grace86
Hey, islandclimber, somehow you snuck in, when I was posting and I missed your post, and then checking back, I finally I did read your latest posts and Dark Muse'sposts, as well; but, to be honest with you both, I can't fully function right now or process anyone's post on the story. I need sleep, too...badly.:yawnb:
I do have an answer to your one question, islandclimber, as to the fairytale beginning. We did discuss this a short while back and infact this story is much like one we did a few months ago which starts out "There was a man who loved islands"....same sort of fairytale or fable device. Yes, you are very observant (not crazy at all), and I will expand on this idea tomorrow. Lawrence wrote several stories, in this vain, towards the end of his career and life. More on all this tomorrow, when hopefully, my brain will be working much better. Night all!:)