Yeah, let's hear it for poor trampled husbands. :p :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
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Yeah, let's hear it for poor trampled husbands. :p :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The baby shower was great, but I ate too much, and now am too tired out to post. I can only reply to your comment to DM - :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
See you all tomorrow - I will be more awake hopefully!:yawnb:
That really does make a lot of sense, Dark Muse. :) The story was very amusing, wasn't it? :lol: and now I am going to bed!.... "perchance to read....more like dream...." *enormous yawn*Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, that it was, and I look forward to our discussion of it
Well, I am awake :eek: and I have had coffee so that is promising. Funny, after reading the story again, last night and digesting it, I was thinking about what you wrote DM, and now I don't think I am in full agreement with you about the husband and wife being on 'even footing', but I could be wrong, too. Therefore, this can be something we can furthur explore and disguss, after I officially post the story introduction. I have been trying to locate the original references, to the person, this story was based on, and there is an actual person. I found something new, but not the exact thing I had read before, so I am still researching that online and in my books. Be back in awhile with my introduction or later, tonight. I have to go out this evening for a short while, but will be back, not too late and may have to post it then if I don't do so in the day. Sorry for the delay, it can't be helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hello Everyone!
Our next discussion will be on the short story:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...therWhiteT.jpg
This story involves a man and woman who have been married for a number of years and gotten used to each other. They cannot seem to coexist in the same house for long. The man is an author and therefore works at home, while the wife seems prone to spending much of the husband’s money and traveling extensively. The wife often goes off to parts of Europe or warmer climates, for extended periods of time and they have a sort of agreement that she has her affairs and that has nothing to do really with their marriage, claiming they love each other. The husband relies heavily on his devoted young secretary and so eventually, on returning home, the wife becomes observant and jealous of this dedicated relationship the secretary has with her husband, something the wife knows she could never give to him. I won’t give away anymore of story. I only want to comment, that I felt it was one of the more quick witted and amusing stories of Lawrence’s with an underlying feeling of resentments, unspoken between the husband and wife. This makes for an interesting study and scenario between wife, husband and secretary.
Interesting facts I was able to research about this story:
From: D.H.Lawrence A Calender of his Works by Sagar:
This ‘tribulation’ that Lawrence refers to is most likely his anticipation of protest from Compton Mackenzie, who you may have remembered was the model for Lawrence’s short story ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’; later when Lawrence’s publisher wanted to include the story in “The Prussian Officer and Other Short Stories” collection, Mackenzie threatened to sue, or pressured the publisher not to include it or he would find another publisher himself, because Mackenzie had the same publisher. A while back I read an account of Lawrence having lunch with Mackenzie’s wife Faith Mackensie, who confided in Lawrence about she and her husband’s separate life styles. Somewhat like Lawrence and Frieda, they had been married for awhile and apparently Faith spend much time away from their home, in Scotland. Like Lawrence, Compton Mackenzie was a productive author. Mackenzie apparently did not protest when his wife wished to wander off, from time to time. There are many references, in my biography books, mentioning Faith’s visits(alone and husband-less) to various place or groups of people Lawrence knew. After this fateful lunch with Faith, Lawrence wrote ‘Two Blue Birds’, obviously basing the story on her character and her husband. Of course, with L's writing of TMWLI - more fuel was added to the fire.Quote:
May 1926 At Pensione Lucchesi, Florence, until 6, then to Villa Mirenda, Scandicci, Florence, which was then the Lawrence home until June 1923.
SUMMARY Lawrence wrote his Introduction to Max Havelaar [B21 and Phoenix] and ‘Two Blue Birds’ [C154 B222 A41], and continued to work on the Etuscans.
13 MAY To Nancy Pearn: [i] I send you a story, ‘Two Blue Birds’ – probably to be another tribulation to you [Huxley 658].
In another reference, found in my new Cambridge biography of L – “The Life of an Outsider” by John Worthen, I found this account:
Interesting to note, that the next story that follows this one, in the 2rd volume of the set, is the short story we all read and liked so much, "Sun". I sense the progression that took place in Lawrence's creative process, and find it a very interesting period in this writing. Chronologically, 'The Man Who Loved Islands' follows in the next and final volume (3).Quote:
But Lawrence was now properly back at work, typing out Frieda’s translation of David, though he hated doing it (‘I loathe the typewriter’), writing essays about Florence and producting two pieces of work provoked by conversations, in Capri in March, with Compton Mackenzie’s wife, Faith: ‘another who loves her husband but can’t live with him.’ That wasn’t exactly true of him and Frieda, but the subject obviously appealed. ‘Two Blue Birds’ was a skit and no more, but ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ became one of Lawrence’s greatest works: a profound criticism of the temperament that seeks out separation from the world.
I found these biographical notes of some interest, in the way in which the two short stories are linked somewhat, in Lawrence's original concept, basing them on the husband and wife. Also, rather humorous to me, was the fact, that Lawrence was retyping his wife’s work (probably annoyed at that) and hating the typewriter. He mentioned the secretary several times typing up manuscripts for the husband/author in this story.
Well, enjoy the story everyone! Now we can officially begin discussing it.:)
Hehe well now that it has offically begun, I will be sure to work on picking out passages of which most stand out to me
Yay Janine!!!!!
Thanks all! I made it just in-time.....now about Chekhov and the ship.....well, I still have not read 'Gooseberries' - would it hurt, do you think, to read that one later and the story we will be discussing tomorrow, tonight? Or will I miss out on something taking them out of sequence. I will do my best I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
One thing I noticed about this Lawrence story, that seems so much different in form from other stories we read so far, is that even though there is a first person narrator, I feel that the things being thought and said, come directly from the wife's viewpoint. I also get the sense, throughout the story, that this is from the wife's point of view, entirely. I guess that would make sense since, in fact, Faith Mackenzie, who the story was fashioned after, was the one narrating her personal business, about her marriage to Lawrence, directly confiding in him, over a casual lunch. In this way, the story almost, but not quite, feels like a frame story. I like the quirky way the story is written. It moves along quickly, with many double meaning phrases, that really made me think and laugh, as well. I felt the story was very cleverly written and had more of an 'edge' - something like the way Chekhov wrote....is the story a little Chekhovian, do you think? or am I spending too much time in that other thread? ;) :lol:
Good introduction, Janine. I'll post something tomorrow when I get back from work.
The order isn't that relevant. As long as you read "About Love" and "Gooseberries" together, it doesn't matter which one comes first. See you guys tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, Oh good. If you do so, can you try and keep it in sequence, as to how the story develops? It is often good to work up the discussion, as the story progresses; otherwise, everyone just get randomly lost. At least for me this true when we jump way ahead too quickly. We have a whole month to discuss this story so let's take our time. At least going slowly and in order of events is less confusing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the story and especially about the wife. I thought you were going to hate her. I even refrained from picking this story (last month) on account of your hatred for the lady in "Shadow in the Rose Garden":lol:
And she didn't really want him to kiss her; she knew him too well. Yes, she knew him too well. If you know a man too well, you don't want him to kiss you.
:D :D DH Lawrence in a "Wildesque" moment to coin another term... This is fantastic... Maybe not the best part of the story, but the wittiest... I love it... How come I've never seen this as a quote before?!?!?!
Janine great intro!!! It is a little like some of Chekhov's more comedic works... actually one comes to mind, "The Darling" where the lady only feels happy when she is married to someone and lives for them and through them.. she reminds me of the secretary in this story.. it is quite good as well.. One of Chekhov's better non tragic works...
I also saw the story as basically told by the wife and from her own viewpoint entirely... I think this was necessary to make the wife have some redeeming features... for if we did not have her thoughts to accompany the story, I would see her as pretty awful... but her thoughts put her actions and words into a more positive light... which is why I assume Lawrence wrote from the wife's perspective, so we all don't hate her... :D
sorry about quoting half way through the book.. :p I just saw Oscar Wilde in big bold letters when I read that, and I absolutely had to!!! :D
You got it, I will be sure to keep my quotes toward the begining of the story, and save the others untill we progress more to that pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hi again, Dark Muse! Ok, good you both get the system/my thought process. The discussions, where we 'refrained from' charging head-first to the very end of the story in the initial 24 hours, were the best in the long-run, so let's all take it s l o w l y and post segments, as the story progresses: highlight certain phrases and talk about them, as they develop. This worked well in the previous (successful discussions) so stay in the same frame of mind...chronological. We will get more out of it that way. There is a lot here to discuss and many of the lines are just so witty and great to think about in different contexts. This should be great fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Isn't this just great...only Lawrence would write it just that way!Quote:
And she didn't really want him to kiss her; she knew him too well. Yes, she knew him too well. If you know a man too well, you don't want him to kiss you.
It is a thought and a consideration. Lawrence did like Wild, I believe. I should research that, before I make that statement. Lawrence knew first-hand how to dish out creative insults, he being constantly attacked and rejected, by former friends, publishers and the public. I think this comes out in this story. Lawrence could get so angry and say something when lashing out it, was actually funny to hear. He used the word 'swine' liberally. I laugh when I read his letters - they're so entertaining!Quote:
DH Lawrence in a "Wildesque" moment to coin another term... This is fantastic... Maybe not the best part of the story, but the wittiest... I love it... How come I've never seen this as a quote before?!?!?!
[quote]Janine great intro!!! It is a little like some of Chekhov's more comedic works... actually one comes to mind, "The Darling" where the lady only feels happy when she is married to someone and lives for them and through them.. she reminds me of the secretary in this story.. it is quite good as well.. One of Chekhov's better non tragic works...
Thanks so much, islandclimber. I am glad the 'introduction' works. I really did not quite know what to write, in summary, about this story. I tried finding a written summary or introduction, online and in my books, and came up blank, so I had to just make it up in my own words. I never like to tell too much anyway; just something short, to entice a person to read the story.
It was not easy finding that other biographical information, either. I had to hunt and hunt through countless books.
I would like that story "The Darling" I think. I will have to fit it in sometime soon. Thanks for the suggestion.
[quote]I also saw the story as basically told by the wife and from her own viewpoint entirely... I think this was necessary to make the wife have some redeeming features... for if we did not have her thoughts to accompany the story, I would see her as pretty awful... but her thoughts put her actions and words into a more positive light... which is why I assume Lawrence wrote from the wife's perspective, so we all don't hate her...
So you did also see it from her point of view...interesting way of writing, isn't it? I like your ideas on why. It makes her feelings seem 'human', reactions seem entirely believable, I imagine. We can see through her eyes and I will not say sympathise, but we can view the scenes unfolding, as she is percieving them. That may indeed, have been L's motive. However, the woman the story was fashioned after, Faith - I don't think she would have agreed with that idea. Her real husband, Compton, was very put-out at Lawrence over that story. But then again, maybe Lawrence was favoring her side - interesting thought - after all she had confided something to Lawrence about her married life and gave him the idea for this story to begin with. I believe it was a friendly lunch they had together. I had not viewed it quite that way. I might have to go back and read it a third time.;)
[quote]sorry about quoting half way through the book.. I just saw Oscar Wilde in big bold letters when I read that, and I absolutely had to!!!
I rather enjoyed the way the story was written from her point of view, and though I cannot say I entirely agree with her, in someways I can understand/relate to her feelings. Though it is true I did not dislike her, I also would not say I completely sympathathied with her, than I do not think she was seeking any sympathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
One of the things that really struck me about her, and perhaps contributed to my feelings toward her, is the fact that she came off as being both a very strong woman as well as independent. And in many ways, she does admit her own faults.
I must admit that I also do enjoy her sardonic cynicism
I really enjoyed the passage. I liked the contrast it showed between the two. The husband in grey England, while the wife, away in the sun. I also like the way in which while the wife is perceived here as being rather gay and vibrant, the husband is seen as being more grim and dreary.Quote:
But when he sat in the greyness of England, at the back of his mind, with a certain grim fidelity, he was aware of his wife, her strange yearning to be loyal and faithful, having her gallant affairs away in the sun, in the south. And she, as she drank her cocktail on the terrace over the sea, and turned her grey, sardonic eyes on the heavy dark face of her admirer, whom she really liked quite a lot, she was actually preoccupied with the clear-cut features of here handsome young husband, thinking about how he would be asking his secretary to do something for him, asking in that good-natured confident voice of a man who knows his request will be only too gladly fulfilled
Though I did find it interesting the fact that the wife's eyes are described as being grey as well, while is gazing upon her admirer with her thoughts turning back to her husband.
First of all, I just loved the fact that he was described as being catty here, sense such is a term most often used to refer to women. And I loved the whimsical description. I found something almost charming in this passage.Quote:
You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible handsome, clear-cut mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome clear-cut histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.
I just love these lines.Quote:
Ah, the women! How nice men would be if there were no other women!
And how nice the women would be if there were no other men!
I really liked this passage. It displays a certain kind of intimacy which exists between a man and his secretary for the special sort of relationship they have together. The secretary is seen as being in some sort of awe over the man whom dictates to her while she gives him a special importance.Quote:
That is best of a secretary. She may have a husband, but a husband is the mere shred of a man, compared to a boss, a chief, a man who dictates to you and whose words you faithfully write down and then transcribe. Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her! But a secretary! Every and and but of his she preserves for ever. Where are candied violets in comparison
I particularly like
To me there is a certain humor here, for it is a rather timeless joke, the fact that women are so often portrayed as not paying attention to their husbands or listening to them.Quote:
Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her!