Yeah, I know - you said you were just kidding.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Printable View
Yeah, I know - you said you were just kidding.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quark you are quite right. I was the one pushing Bertie's apparent homosexuality and I did so by bringing in biographical information, something Janine loves to do. :p But that is unfair ti the story. The story should be somewhat hermetically sealed from the author's bio. There is nothing in the story proper that suggests Bertie is nothing more than asexual as some have said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Except that the women who did not break Bertie did not presumably have this connection with blood consciousness. I read the story as Maurice's special connection, dramatised symbolically by his scarred eyes, with blood consciousness that is the over powering force that destroys Bertie. In the end, I think the homosexuality comes from the person Lawrence based the novel on and the association we make with the knowledge of who this character is based on.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Yes, having read a few Lawrence biographies myself (for those that don't know I did my master's thesis on Lawrence) and read much of Lawrence's works I don't think he was homosexual at all. The evidence if he were would be in his letters. He wrote over seven volumes of letters (and those are the ones that were saved and not lost) and he spilled his life in his letters. One can trace his life almost day by day in those letters. And he mentions everything. He surely would have mentioned a homosexual relationship if he had had one. I can't remember the German word either Janine, but I do remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Right, but sometimes the biography will reveal true connections to certain aspects of the novels or stories, so obvious it can't be mistaken; however, with this story I have not been able to dig up a shred of evidence to indicate, that indeed, a biographical connection to Bertrum Russell had any bearing on this story. At least this is true in the books/biographies I did look into and even some of the volumes of letters. Now maybe, I will come across a reference eventually, and if I do, I will let everyone know. Had we not known about L's association with a homosexual and his friends, ( and there were many others, as well in his life), then I think we would have simply thought that Bertie just could not 'connect personally/physically' with women. This is one reason I first suggested that the name Bertie was interesting to me because young Bert (as Lawrence was called) did have a problem fully connecting with women, at an early age. However, he did not have problems connecting sexually, or then again did he? His early love affairs were not a great success and that seemed to stem from his mother's hold on him. I refer to his early years such as the woman depicted in "Sons and Lovers." I wondered if, in using this name in this story, it had some kind of symbolic meaning for Lawrence. Of course, there again, I was merely thinking out loud and conjucturing and I am probably way off track.Quote:
Quark you are quite right. I was the one pushing Bertie's apparent homosexuality and I did so by bringing in biographical information, something Janine loves to do. But that is unfair ti the story. The story should be somewhat hermetically sealed from the author's bio. There is nothing in the story proper that suggests Bertie is nothing more than asexual as some have said.
I like the way you put that, Virgil, and referring to it as 'dramatised symbolically', using the image of the scarred eyes or eye-sockets. That certainly was a shockin moment in the story and brought much drama into our minds.Quote:
Except that the women who did not break Bertie did not presumably have this connection with blood consciousness. I read the story as Maurice's special connection, dramatised symbolically by his scarred eyes, with blood consciousness that is the over powering force that destroys Bertie. In the end, I think the homosexuality comes from the person Lawrence based the novel on and the association we make with the knowledge of who this character is based on.
Still not sure who L did truly base this character, Bertie, on. I don't think we have true solid evidence to prove that and until we find it we can't assume it either. Perhaps I should look up Bertrum Russell in some of the books, instead of the title to this story and see if I can come up with something. I think to write this story and actually use the guy's real name might also be a little too direct and obvious if it were true. He often based characters after true life friends, acquaintances but usually the names are much different than those real life people.
I agree with this completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
The German word is like Blunder-something - or the other....I will try looking in the WIL text for it, when I have the time.
Ok, let's fiannly look at that climax. Here is the text:
I think many observations have already been discussed, like Bertie's anilhiation from the contact and Maurice's growth from it. One thing I want to re-emphasize is how important the sense of touch is. Not only do the two touch each other, but Maurice continues to hold on to Bertie's hand afterward. Touch for Lawrence is an important concept, an exchange of each other's vitality. This would get more fleshed out as a concept in Lady Chatterly. We've mentioned how close this comes to homosexuality, but I think Lawrence considers this male exchange a form of bond between blood brothers. Twice the word "friendship" is used. Remember it was Maurice who had difficulty in forming friendships, but now the power of touch has awakened him to the world of humanity. Notice this sentence: "The new delicate fulfilment of mortal friendship had come as a revelation and surprise to him, something exquisite and unhoped-for." Not just friendship but "mortal friendship." Lawrence is trying to stretch for a higher order concept. And the word "revelation" suggests a religious experience. I am, I must admit, a little baffeled by the next sentence: "He seemed to be listening to hear if it were real." I can understand how Lawrence links it with audible sense (it's beyond consciousness) but why question it's veracity with "if real"? That confuses me. But I think I've concluded my thoughts on ths story. Another outstanding story!Quote:
But he suffered as the blind man stretched out a strong, naked hand to him. Maurice accidentally knocked off Bertie's hat.
'I thought you were taller,' he said, starting. Then he laid his hand on Bertie Reid's head, closing the dome of the skull in a soft, firm grasp, gathering it, as it were; then, shifting his grasp and softly closing again, with a fine, close pressure, till he had covered the skull and the face of the smaller man, tracing the brows, and touching the full, closed eyes, touching the small nose and the nostrils, the rough, short moustache, the mouth, the rather strong chin. The hand of the blind man grasped the shoulder, the arm, the hand of the other man. He seemed to take him, in the soft, travelling grasp.
'You seem young,' he said quietly, at last.
The lawyer stood almost annihilated, unable to answer.
'Your head seems tender, as if you were young,' Maurice repeated. 'So do your hands. Touch my eyes, will you?--touch my scar.'
Now Bertie quivered with revulsion. Yet he was under the power of the blind man, as if hypnotized. He lifted his hand, and laid the fingers on the scar, on the scarred eyes. Maurice suddenly covered them with his own hand, pressed the fingers of the other man upon his disfigured eye-sockets, trembling in every fibre, and rocking slightly, slowly, from side to side. He remained thus for a minute or more, whilst Bertie stood as if in a swoon, unconscious, imprisoned.
Then suddenly Maurice removed the hand of the other man from his brow, and stood holding it in his own.
'Oh, my God' he said, 'we shall know each other now, shan't we? We shall know each other now.'
Bertie could not answer. He gazed mute and terror-struck, overcome by his own weakness. He knew he could not answer. He had an unreasonable fear, lest the other man should suddenly destroy him. Whereas Maurice was actually filled with hot, poignant love, the passion of friendship. Perhaps it was this very passion of friendship which Bertie shrank from most.
'We're all right together now, aren't we?' said Maurice. 'It's all right now, as long as we live, so far as we're concerned?'
'Yes,' said Bertie, trying by any means to escape.
Maurice stood with head lifted, as if listening. The new delicate fulfilment of mortal friendship had come as a revelation and surprise to him, something exquisite and unhoped-for. He seemed to be listening to hear if it were real.
How about we call it homo-sensuality?!?!? since I think a compelling argument has been made that it is not meant to be homosexuality... It keeps reminding me of some of the scenes of homoeroticism in Whitman's "Leaves of Grass".. again an instance of not homosexuality... but a deeper connection than just normal friendship between men, something sensual, and beautiful or so I believe Lawrence and Whitman, respectively want it to appear...
But, Virgil and Janine, you have me convinced that it is not homosexuality that was made implicit here, just a blood conscious as you have said, a homo-sensuality of a sort... I mean, he may have meant it to imply homosexuality, but if he did he left it quite ambiguous, it seems more like the intense connection of conscious you both speak of... great posts.. great story!
Funny you should mention Whitman. Lawrence loved Whitman and modeled much of his poetry on Whitman's.
I agree with the closing remarks; good post, Virgil!
Now I will take my bow for picking such a good story this time. I hope the next one won't disappoint anyone; this story is a hard act to follow. I am currently reviewing L's short stories and even reading a few I had heard were good ones, or have wanted to read. So I am not blank at this point, just investigating. This is to reassure you that I am working behind the scenes to come up with another good story to discuss, that all will connect to and like.
Thumbs up to everyone who participated in this great discussion! How many pages did we fill this time on this one very 'short' story? I believe it was 6 or 7 - that is truly commendable. Keep up the good work, everyone!
Hahaha :lol:islandclimber, I appreciate your creativity in forming the word homo-sensuality....that is a good one!
I definitely am convinced, if Lawrence were standing her right this minute, and we all suggested to him that Bertie was homosexual, he would probably roll his eyes and laugh or make a crazy remark like "no one gets my ideas".:lol:
Yes, so true, Virgil, Lawrence did identify with Whitman and he wrote a commentary paper on Whitman's work. I will have to read it one of these days. My library owns that book or maybe I did purchase it; I lost track of L books here by now...oh me oh my....scatterbrain at this point. That reminds me, Virgil, did you ever locate your lost book?
Yes, it was in my briefcase. I must have looked in there a number of times and not moticed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, I see islandclimber is not the only one making up words here - you 'moticed' it?:lol:Quote:
Yes, it was in my briefcase. I must have looked in there a number of times and not moticed it.
My friend, Carol, said 'when you lose something always go back to the first place you looked and 9 times out of 10 - wala - it will be there!' This is funny, because I have tried it countless times and found it works (well, most of the time, anyway). Glad you found it.
I am mulling over the choices for the next story. I read one longer one last night, but now I don't think I want to suggest that...so back to the old drawing board...I am still undecided, but I did read a number of stories last month so I have a few for candidates. I will post the new story on Monday or Tues....promise.:D
Cannot wait to see what it will be
I wonder about you guys sometimes. Do you type things really fast, or do you not have spell check? I've noticed sometimes when I'm on a different computer computer the red line won't come up when I'm on LitNet. Does that happen often? Usually, though, I get a red line when I write moticed, and then buzzers and sirens go off. While being very annoying, yes, it does let me know that I've mistyped. Does this not happen for you guys?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Make it a good one Janine since we've got two new people joining us. With six people taking part in this one it'll be interesting to see how this goes. Eventually, we may have to break into two Lawrence threads. I foresee a successful, Quark-started offshoot thread. We might run out of stories this way, though. How many did Lawrence write? Do we need to be worried about running out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
You have spell check with lit net? How does that work and how do I get it? I don't have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
See, this is what I thought. You don't get a red line under misspellings? I don't know why some computers get this and other don't, but for whatever reason I'm singularly blessed with spellcheck which has just informed me that spellcheck isn't a word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
That would be nice if I had spellcheck in my posts here. I should probably just post in an e-mail or something first, where I do have spell check and than copy and paste here.
No, I feel cheated.:( I have often wondered about 'spell check' on here and thought for sure it would be in the tool bar, at the top of this posting window. I have hunted for it, forever...it is not there to my knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Once I got this cute little 'widget' - ever have one of those? You can download them free from the net, and I did so - it was a 'spelling bee' and you just entered the word in this tiny little thing, that came up when you were online and it would suggest spellings; even had this cute little bee that swarmed around when it was correct. Only trouble was I got a few more 'widgets' and my computer starting acting wacky and I had to remove them. I really miss that little spelling bee - I thought it was my answer to Lit Net's lack of spell-check. Now if I do copy the text into my 'Word' program, it will authomatically correct the word for me, but then that adds an additional step all the time; so either way, you can't win in the long-run, right Virgil? So we are all not the best spellers in the world, at least we are all brilliant thinkers!;) :( Einstein could not spell either, so there!:D )
Now you must all hear of how ridiculous and lame I have been, all this time I have been on Lit Net. I did not know you could hightlight the text, then click on that one icon above - one that looks like text on a yellow page - and it would add the [quote] format/code at the beginning and the end, automatically. I have been copying and pasting them for years, from other parts of the text....duh, am I computer sauvy or what? I have found this little discovery has really speeded things up.:goof: Better late then never, I suppose. :rolleyes: :nod:
Yes, trying to chose one; so many stories so little time....*sigh, sigh*...hummm.... I know, now that there are more anticipative and anxious people here, I feel this I am being squeezed by pressure 'to pick a good one' :brickwall :cold: . Well, I think they all are good, but I keep trying to pick one that will please all of you. :D The thing is I don't think I can quess, just how you each will respond, to any of the stories. Therefore, this is an nearly impossible task for my feeble mind. I will eventually - just pick one and you can all decide if you like it or not; if you hate it, you all can beat me up!Quote:
Make it a good one Janine since we've got two new people joining us. With six people taking part in this one it'll be interesting to see how this goes. Eventually, we may have to break into two Lawrence threads. I foresee a successful, Quark-started offshoot thread. We might run out of stories this way, though. How many did Lawrence write? Do we need to be worried about running out?
About that spin-off thread, Quark - very funny and the answer is NO!!!! We won't run out of L stories for years and years. He wrote zillions and besides we could always switch to the longer ones, which are sort of novellas. NO, we will never run out, as long as I stay a member of Lit Net! This thread is my 'baby', Virgil's too, I think; was his idea to begin with - he started the thread after we discussed it in a PM. Taking of discussing something I think I will PM him and ask his advice on the stories. He has read quite a few and he may be familiar with the ones I have been reviewing. I asked him last time and he told me "The Blind Man" was a great story. I was favoring that one anyway.
I have in mind one, that is a later story and kind of humorous - yes, our Lawrence did have a keen wit and sense of humor.:D At least I thought this story was funny and even found myself laughing out loud, at times. I will confer first with Virgil, and let you know next week. Also, (biographically) it has some connection to another story we read.