D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, I do think we disagree here. You had better go back over the story. First off, I do think that some time has passed for Maurice and Isabel and they are not experiencing (continually or consistently) the marital bliss they first felt when he came home wounded and blind. I don't know if the text indicates just how much time has elapsed, but I felt it was at least a year. It seems that at first they needed only themselves, and then later Isabel, feeling something is missing, invited her friends to visit, and finally Maurice's; however, the friends never seemed to stick around very long and once again, M and I were left entirely to themselves and in a sort of isolation.
The second thing we see differently, is that when Maurice comes out of the barn with Bertie, Maurice is quite elated; yet in the prior scene, when he was sitting at the table with Isabel and Bertie, Maurice was not connecting with them at all, and he was in a low state of mind, feeling shut out; therefore he retreated to his own dark world in the barn. I think this was compounded by the unsure reasons he states to Bertie in the barn - about what his scar looks like and how he expresses his deepest insecurities. Below I posted that part of the text:



I think that passage clearly shows the insecurity that Maurice is feeling in relation to his wife. I think that actually, Bertie, now becomes the one outside source or 3rd party that Maurice can call upon to question and confide in about these feelings he has as a male. Bertie being male and Isabel being a woman will not understand in the same way. This is finally Maurice's chance to know the truth about things that had to be bothering him within his own mind and being. It is ironic and odd that this source of confidence should end up being Bertie. I feel that this comes about because Maurice is set appart at the table and he sees from a different perspective how well Isabel and Bertie can communicate platonically in a language based way. Whereas, Maurice does not approach his wife in this mannor and apparently does not feel secure enough to say to her - is my scar horrid, am I ugly, repulsive, am I a burden. What husband could say that really? I think that, therefore, Maurice is totally transformed when he emerges with Bertie from the barn. He has gained his self confidence and can move on now without being burdened by these inner thoughts of his own worthlessness.
Now the next part of the text:

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You are quite convincing Janine. Yes Maurice is troubled and brooding. I did realize that but sort of glossed over it. I think it stems from having a wife that is a separate individual and therefore he cannot completely be self absorbed. He can't be a flower because he's human and has human interaction and an outside world that he has to live beside. I did want to hold off discussion on the climax until we understood Bertie. How abouot I come back to your points on the climax? I'll put out my thoughts on Bertie either later tonight or tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

It's interesting about Maurice's period of sadness. I read that as the outside world intruding on his tranquility. And that by the story's present time, he's overcome it. I guess we can talk about that when we discuss the climax. I guess i don't see how Maurice changes after that barn scene. It's Bertie who's altered.

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Yeah, at first I thought that Maurice's sadness would be linked to some social influence. That would fit well with much of Lawrence's other work, but when I read the story it seems to be Maurice's isolation and social anxieties which crush him. Oddly enough, in this story Lawrence gives a pretty even-handed approach to philosophical issues that were central to his identity as a writer. He refuses to idealize Maurice. The blindness which gives Maurice such transports of "blood consciousness" also disfigures and isolates. Lawrence is still more sympathetic to Maurice than any other character, but the flaws he's given do strike me as odd.

As for changes in the barn scene, Janine put it best. Maurice and Bertie's exchange and touch affects both of them--in different ways of course. And, of course, it has to be pointed out that Maurice probably got more from it because he was comfortable and not recoiling--hence, Maurice's elation afterwards.


Janine, thanks for posting all that. I can't add much to your description of the barn scene. I thought it was pretty good, but it might clash with some of what Dark Muse (do you mind if I shorten DM?) and Virgil were saying so we'll have to wait for their comeback.

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You are quite convincing Janine. Yes Maurice is troubled and brooding. I did realize that but sort of glossed over it. I think it stems from having a wife that is a separate individual and therefore he cannot completely be self absorbed. He can't be a flower because he's human and has human interaction and an outside world that he has to live beside. I did want to hold off discussion on the climax until we understood Bertie. How abouot I come back to your points on the climax? I'll put out my thoughts on Bertie either later tonight or tomorrow.

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I was out and now I am back and read all your posts; but I am kind of tired out now to post any real comments.
Sure, Virgil, I will wait till you add to what you and I have said. Take your time. I don't plan on being on the computer much longer tonight. I want to maybe watch a movie or read.

Quark, I am too tired out right now to answer your post. I will do so tomorrow. Mostly, we just have to wait for Virgil to catch up and post about the climax. Like I said above, I am in no hurry.

Don't mean to be leaving you out, DM....I will check what you said, as well, and comment tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

You are quite convincing Janine. Yes Maurice is troubled and brooding. I did realize that but sort of glossed over it. I think it stems from having a wife that is a separate individual and therefore he cannot completely be self absorbed. He can't be a flower because he's human and has human interaction and an outside world that he has to live beside. I did want to hold off discussion on the climax until we understood Bertie. How abouot I come back to your points on the climax? I'll put out my thoughts on Bertie either later tonight or tomorrow.

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OK Janine I'm convinced of the trouble spot inside Maurice. But I can't help but feel Lawrence is forcing it. For instance, compare these two paragraphs that come right after each other:

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Pervin moved about almost unconsciously in his familiar surroundings, dark though everything was. He seemed to know the presence of objects before he touched them. It was a pleasure to him to rock thus through a world of things, carried on the flood in a sort of blood-prescience. He did not think much or trouble much. So long as he kept this sheer immediacy of blood-contact with the substantial world he was happy, he wanted no intervention of visual consciousness. In this state there was a certain rich positivity, bordering sometimes on rapture. Life seemed to move in him like a tide lapping, and advancing, enveloping all things darkly. It was a pleasure to stretch forth the hand and meet the unseen object, clasp it, and possess it in pure contact. He did not try to remember, to visualize. He did not want to. The new way of consciousness substituted itself in him.

The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife. But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control or surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.

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The first paragraph establishes Maurice as linked to blood consciousness, "the new way of consciousness." We all understand that. The second paragraph highlights the tortured part of his soul. But I can't help feel it's somewhat vague. I guess the source of the turmoil is the passion that is "checked and thrown back" at him. That's rather ambiguous, don't you think? It seems Lawrence doesn't quite know how to bring out this inner turmoil. If Maurice is in touch with blood consciousness, then how does Lawrence justify that there is a part of him that is not happy? It seems like he's put himself in a quandry. Ultimately I think we have to accept that Maurice is troubled with the outside world and retreats to where he is satisfied.

Sorry I have not been around lately to post much, but you guys have been doing a great job thus far. I have been trying to follow your posts, just have not really been able to contribute anything for the past few days.

You do make a good point here Virgil, I have not viewed it like that before, but it is true there does seem to be a contradiciton within Maurice, and in the way in which on the one hand, he seems to take solice in his isolation, and is happy when he retreats back to his own dark world, and the things which he knows, and yet on the other hand, he is shown as being made depressed becasue he feels left out of the world.

Isable and Muarice seem to have this sort of struggle, where though they are happy with each other, they also cannot seem to find complete satisfaction either in thier seculusion, or in the world at large.

Both seem to dissatisfy them to one exeten or the other, but they always seem to feel a certain bliss, when they do retreat back into thier own world and drive away others from them.

Sorry, I can't respond to the posts directly or thoroughly. Good post Virgil, good comments from your post also DM.
I was out shopping again, so I got home quite late, and tired out. I am now watching a film - actually this amazing ballet based on Alexandre Dumas "Lady of the Camille", a book I am hoping to read soon....this dance production is so incredible and so elegant and sensual that I keep thinking - now they have achieved the 'blood consciousness' - there is no need for a word to be spoken, everything is being relayed via their bodies and the dance.
I am too tired to actually respond, but the one thing that stands out to me, is that in all of Lawrence's works, there is this impending question always. Our Lawrence was not entirely 100% sure of his own ideas, in my opinion. I ran up against some passages, last night, that made this quite clear to me in "Women in Love"; so I will ask you, Virgil, since you read much of Lawrence's work - does there exist a work by Lawrence wherein he does not contradict some ideas or thoughts he presents in a story/novel? I see this sort of conflict always prevalent throughout Lawrence's body of work, and yet I find it to be something that draws me further into his works. As Rilke says "Learn to love the questions." I think this wavering of feeling that Maurice is having is completely normal and also typical of Lawrence. Lawrence was enigmatic and complex and therefore, so are his characters - always. It is what makes his work totally fascinating to me. I like enigmas I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am too tired to actually respond, but the one thing that stands out to me, is that in all of Lawrence's works, there is this impending question always. Our Lawrence was not entirely 100% sure of his own ideas, in my opinion. I ran up against some passages, last night, that made this quite clear to me in "Women in Love"; so I will ask you, Virgil, since you read much of Lawrence's work - does there exist a work by Lawrence wherein he does not contradict some ideas or thoughts he presents in a story/novel?

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:lol: You're probably right. I'm not sure i can think of one. Although I think he is 100% sure of his ideas, it's just that he believes that contradictions serve best. I don't know if Lawrence knew William Blakes work. I think Blake was still undiscovered during Lawrence's lifetime, or perhpas it was just being discovered. But Blake had a theory similar to lawrence in which through opposites and contradictions that progress is made.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

:lol: You're probably right. I'm not sure i can think of one. Although I think he is 100% sure of his ideas, it's just that he believes that contradictions serve best. I don't know if Lawrence knew William Blakes work. I think Blake was still undiscovered during Lawrence's lifetime, or perhpas it was just being discovered. But Blake had a theory similar to lawrence in which through opposites and contradictions that progress is made.

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Yeah, really - Lawrence thrived on contradictions. How many we can observe in his novels - such as S&L and WIL, especially WIL? Even within a chapter, Rupert is contradicting himself, even admitting it at times.
Actually, I thought I read Lawrence mention Blake once - it may have been in a letter or in a introductory note to one of his novels. I will look it up in my biographies. I believe he was well aware of Blake's existence and ideas. Now that would make perfect sense, because Lawrence basked in contradictions and opposities and enigmas. Everything Lawrence wrote that I can think of ends with a question or sense of questioning.

I've been away at the Chekhov thread recently--Janine keeps writing these monster posts that I have to reply to--and I haven't gotten a chance to reply on this thread. I wanted to post, though. The conversation was just starting to get good here. We're starting to realize that this story isn't just a advertisement for "blood consciousness." There's conflict and ambiguity just like in any of the other stories we've read. There's quite a lot to respond to. I'll start with this:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

OK Janine I'm convinced of the trouble spot inside Maurice. But I can't help but feel Lawrence is forcing it. For instance, compare these two paragraphs that come right after each other:

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You think Lawrence can't write Maurice as troubled because he doesn't how he could be? If Lawrence doesn't believe Maurice should be conflicted, why would he bother writing about his problems at all? The terms that Lawrence uses to describe Maurice's problems are ambiguous, but all the terms he uses in this story are equally unclear. It's true we can more easily decipher what Lawrence means in the paragraphs about "blood consciousness", but that's only because we've talked about it previously. Many of us have even read stories like The White Peacock where this idea takes an extreme importance. As readers we're very sensitive to "blood consciousness" and so we recognize it with little prompting from the author. The paragraph that describes Maurice's problems is puzzling because it goes against some of our previous ideas about Maurice's character and Lawrence's attitudes about writing--and not because it's any more vaguely worded. His needs being "thrown back" onto him is no less clear of a phrase than his "sheer immediacy of blood-contact with the substantial world." What is different is our sensitivity to the words.

So, now that I just argued that things being "thrown back" is easy to understand, I guess I have come up with a description of what Lawrence means by saying that. I took away from that paragraph that Maurice's desires were going ungratified. The intimacy that he wants with his wife is being "thrown back" against him because his wife isn't satisfying that need. In a sense, the desire then comes back to him because it's not gratified by the wife. He then internalizes that desire and failure, and it eventually creates turmoil within him. It resurfaces at the end of the story when he descants on his own deformity.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Isable and Muarice seem to have this sort of struggle, where though they are happy with each other, they also cannot seem to find complete satisfaction either in thier seculusion, or in the world at large.

Both seem to dissatisfy them to one exeten or the other, but they always seem to feel a certain bliss, when they do retreat back into thier own world and drive away others from them.

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Yeah, Lawrence says that Isabel gets "a sense of burden" after their periods of close intimacy, and that Maurice suffers from "black misery." The problem seems to be that Maurice wants all of his wife's love and attention and Isabel doesn't believe she can give him everything. The baby is a perfect example of this. Isabel feels even more split between the world and Maurice, and the words "burden" and "black moods" come up again in the paragraph describing the second child. Interestingly, the first child died during WW I when Maurice is away--thus, giving Maurice more of Isabel's attention. I don't think that the baby is, in itself, the problem of their relationship. I just think it exacerbates the problem that was already there.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Actually, I thought I read Lawrence mention Blake once - it may have been in a letter or in a introductory note to one of his novels. I will look it up in my biographies. I believe he was well aware of Blake's existence and ideas. Now that would make perfect sense, because Lawrence basked in contradictions and opposities and enigmas. Everything Lawrence wrote that I can think of ends with a question or sense of questioning.

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The Blake connection is interesting. You would know better than I if L actually did read Blake or not. No matter the amount of direct influence, I think we can say there are some parallels. I agree with you about the opposites. That's one. Another might be in their rejections. Blake disliked how conventional morality prevented people from satisfying their desires. He wrote something like, "Sooner murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires." In similar fashion, Lawrence rejected the conventional intellectualism of his time--preferring that "blood consciousness" idea.


Hopefully this gets conversation going again. Where did everyone leave to? I guess we were all busy this month.

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Hopefully this gets conversation going again. Where did everyone leave to? I guess we were all busy this month.

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Quark,

I'm here and I read your entire 'monster' post! I am trying now to absorb it all. I can't answer it now (going out soon), but thought maybe Virgil would want to jump in to reply anyway and I am sure Dark Muse will also comment, if she sees it.

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I've been away at the Chekhov thread recently--Janine keeps writing these monster posts that I have to reply to--and I haven't gotten a chance to reply on this thread. I wanted to post, though. The conversation was just starting to get good here.

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:lol: who me??? That is because I am desperately trying to keep your little Chekhov thread active and progressing. I am dedicated now to both threads....I am becoming a Chekhov advocate, afterall.
Quark - what? I thought the conversation, all along in here, has been interesting. We have posted now about 6 pages on this one story. That is nothing to sneeze at!

Still have to look up that Blake connection. I am sure I will find something.

Now get over to the Chekhov thread and answer my new 'monster' post - that should keep you busy for awhile!

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Originally Posted by Quark

So, now that I just argued that things being "thrown back" is easy to understand, I guess I have come up with a description of what Lawrence means by saying that. I took away from that paragraph that Maurice's desires were going ungratified. The intimacy that he wants with his wife is being "thrown back" against him because his wife isn't satisfying that need. In a sense, the desire then comes back to him because it's not gratified by the wife. He then internalizes that desire and failure, and it eventually creates turmoil within him. It resurfaces at the end of the story when he descants on his own deformity.

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I think I somewhat disagree with you here. I personally do not get the feeling that he is truly disatiisfied with his wife, or the attention she gives to him, I do not feel as if he does beleive that her affections are inadaquate, though at times he might feel left out in momenents when she is with Bertie, and becasue of his blindness he feels there is a part of the world "the seeing" world as has been discussed, that he cannot sare with her, but I do not think his conflict is that he feels his is deficient.

The end of the story seems to suggest that his conflict is with himself, and with his own self-confidence issues, Isabel seems to be very devoted to him, but he fears becasue of his disablity, and his physcialy disfigurment, that he is no longer good enough for her or that he will be a burdon to her, but I do think Isabel has acted in any way to casue him to feel this way.

She had quite completely devoted herself to him, she even cut ties with her best friend Bertie, untill Maurice told Isabel she should invite him over.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Yeah, Lawrence says that Isabel gets "a sense of burden" after their periods of close intimacy, and that Maurice suffers from "black misery." The problem seems to be that Maurice wants all of his wife's love and attention and Isabel doesn't believe she can give him everything. The baby is a perfect example of this. Isabel feels even more split between the world and Maurice, and the words "burden" and "black moods" come up again in the paragraph describing the second child. Interestingly, the first child died during WW I when Maurice is away--thus, giving Maurice more of Isabel's attention. I don't think that the baby is, in itself, the problem of their relationship. I just think it exacerbates the problem that was already there.

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Maurice went through a very traumatic exeprince in which he rather suddenly lost a part of himself, being his sight. And though in many ways he seems to fine a certian serenity in his blindness, and says that it is not so bad, and that he has even benefitied from it. A great change was still forced upon him of which he had no choice in, and I think, even if one tries to make the best of a situation, and even if they do find some advantages that they had not known before, there would still be moments of regeret for what was loss, and what they have no control over.

I think the core of thier troubles now, is Maurcie's feelings of low self-esteem becasue of his new found dependency and having to rely so much more upon Isabel and her having to take care of him, instead of him being able to take care of her, particualy knowing in his new condition he may be more of a burdon to her with the coming child, makes him feel in someways less of a man. In addition to his insecuritues over his physcial apperance and his wondering just what his wife sees when she looks at him. He tries to imerse himself in his work around the form and these tasks of labor to try and distract his mind from his worries.

And Isabel suffers from a sense of helplessness. She does not truly know what is going on with Maurice and in his mind, becasue he fears to speak openly to her of his doubts to continue to fullfill her and the fact that he fears she may now find him hideious, so when his despire comes over him, she feels there is nothing she can do and as a loving and devoted wife, she can only stand back and watch him suffer. So she too neds a way to take her mind from such things and where he turns to the work of the farm, she turns to the world she once new, her old friends, and society.

DM I could only skim you post for now, but I say *thumbs up!*

Hehe thank you

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Originally Posted by Janine;545279:lol: who me??? That is because I am desperately trying to keep your little Chekhov thread active and progressing. I am dedicated now to both threads....I am becoming a Chekhov advocate, afterall.
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Quark[/b] - what? I thought the conversation, all along in here, has been interesting. We have posted now about 6 pages on this one story. That is nothing to sneeze at!

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I wasn't complaining about your monster posts (they're quite welcome), and I certainly wasn't sneezing at the discussion. I was just explaining that I only have so many words I can type a night and most of them were being spent on the Chekhov thread.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I think I somewhat disagree with you here. I personally do not get the feeling that he is truly disatiisfied with his wife, or the attention she gives to him, I do not feel as if he does beleive that her affections are inadaquate, though at times he might feel left out in momenents when she is with Bertie, and becasue of his blindness he feels there is a part of the world "the seeing" world as has been discussed, that he cannot sare with her, but I do not think his conflict is that he feels his is deficient.

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I'm not sure what else we can take away from those paragraphs Virgil quoted. Lawrence says "The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife." So his main desire is for his wife. Then Lawrence goes on, "But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea...He grew to dread this arrest, this throwback, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements." So something checks his desire to possess his wife. This "something" can't be Maurice's self-doubt because that's described as the result of the check and not the cause. Lawrence tells us that only after the throw-back does he start to feel "at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements." At the end of the story you're right that he voices a lot of negative opinions about himself. He asks whether he's deformed and laments that his wife has to be saddled with a guy like him. This isn't exactly self-esteem from the husband, but shouldn't he be somewhat worried? His wife is treating him like a burden and trying to console him. Isn't this the check that's throwing desires back at him?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

And Isabel suffers from a sense of helplessness. She does not truly know what is going on with Maurice and in his mind, becasue he fears to speak openly to her of his doubts to continue to fullfill her and the fact that he fears she may now find him hideious, so when his despire comes over him, she feels there is nothing she can do and as a loving and devoted wife, she can only stand back and watch him suffer. So she too neds a way to take her mind from such things and where he turns to the work of the farm, she turns to the world she once new, her old friends, and society.

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That's a good explanation of Isabel's anxiety with her husband. She does worry that his incomprehensible "black moods" may separate him and make him unhappy. Isabel does wish Maurice could open up and dispell some of her fears.

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Originally Posted by Quark

His wife is treating him like a burden and trying to console him. Isn't this the check that's throwing desires back at him?.

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When I get the chance I will have to re-read over that paragraph within the story, but I really do not see where Isabel acutally treats Maurice like he is a burdon to her. It seems throughout, she remains quite devoted to him. Though she has fears and concenrs about dividing her attention between him and the baby, I do not see where she acutally does anything to make Maurice feel like a burdon to her. His feelings seem to be completely internal, steming from his own doubts and anxiety, not from anything she acutally does.