Poetry Bookclub 2

Eugenio Montale was one of the giants of 20th century poetry, standing along side the likes of T.S. Eliot, Yeats, Rilke, Pasternak, Wallace Stevens, etc... He was most certainly the most important Modern Italian poet... probably THE most important Italian poet since Leopardi. At a time when Italian poetry had slid into a sort of decorative effete mannerism not unlike the worst indulgences of Victorian poetry and Symbolism, Montale brought about a new clarity... a new muscularity... a new Modernism. Montale brought an international awareness to his poetry. As an avid autodidact he was well read in Shakespeare, browning, Donne, Gerald Manley Hopkins, Henry James, Baudelaire, Mallarme, Valery, Rilke. Montale also was a voracious but selective reader of Italian classics. The three major poets to inspire and challenge Montale were D'Annunzio, Leopardi, and Dante. Inspired by the example of T.S. Eliot, who Montale realized was greatly responsible for bringing about a muscular new manner of English poetry while maintaining a profound debt and admiration for the achievements of the past, Montale confronted his Italian predecessors... especially Dante... head on.

In limine

Rejoice when the breeze that enters the orchard
brings you back the tidal rush of life:
here, where dead memories
mesh and founder,
was no garden, but a reliquary.

That surge you hear is no whir of wings,
but the stirring of the eternal womb.
Look how this strip of lonely coast
has been transformed: a crucible.

All is furor within the sheer wall.
Advance and you may chance upon
the phantasm who might save you:
here are tales composed, and deeds
annulled, for the future to enact.

Find a break in the meshes of the net
that tightens around us, leap out, flee!
Go, I have prayed for your escape- now my thirst
will be slaked, my rancor less bitter...

Eugenio Montale
from Cuttlefish Bones
tr. William Arrowsmith

Godi se il vento ch'entra nel pomario
vi rimena l'ondata della vita:
qui dove affonda un morto
viluppo di memorie,
orto non era, ma reliquiario.

Il frullo che tu senti non è un volo,
ma il commuoversi dell'eterno grembo;
vedi che si trasforma questo lembo
di terra solitario in un crogiuolo.

Un rovello è di qua dall'erto muro.
Se procedi t'imbatti
tu forse nel fantasma che ti salva:
si compongono qui le storie, gli atti
scancellati pel giuoco del futuro.

Cerca una maglia rotta nella rete
che ci stringe, tu balza fuori, fuggi!
Va, per te l'ho pregato, - ora la sete
mi sarà lieve, meno acre la ruggine ...

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I am not quite sure I understand Acmeism, from the short summaries I am reading on it. Not to impose, but this might be a useful mini-discussion for me.[/COLOR]

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An anqutience of mine first brought Acmeism to my attention. I find it to be quite interesting, and Akhmatova is my favorite of the few poets I have thus read within the Acmesim movement. There is something about this form of poetry which appeals to me.

In the first round of voting I voted for her.

JoZ and all: Let me explain the intricate calculus of the vote...a first choice vote=1.oo points/ a second choice vote= 0.50 points/ a third place choice= 0.33 points. As of last night, late, the tally was Tate (2.00), Paz (1.00), Montale (1.00), Plath (1.00), and Bishop (0.83). I need to check the last posts for changes.

acmeism = a school of early 20th-century Russian poetry whose practitioners were strongly opposed to the vagueness of symbolism and strove for absolute clarity of expression through precise, concrete imagery.

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

JoZ and all: Let me explain the intricate calculus of the vote...a first choice vote=1.oo points/ a second choice vote= 0.50 points/ a third place choice= 0.33 points. As of last night, late, the tally was Tate (2.00), Paz (1.00), Montale (1.00), Plath (1.00), and Bishop (0.83). I need to check the last posts for changes.

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tres bien mon ami

Ok here's my vote:

First: Montale
Second: Plath :D
Third: Tate

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Ok here's my vote:

First: Montale
Second: Plath :D
Third: Tate

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I know I am asking for trouble, but how can such a discerning reader like yourself prefer Plath before Tate Virgil? I have only recently discovered the man, but my poet's nose certainly knows the difference between a Pinto and a Thoroughbred.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I know I am asking for trouble, but how can such a discerning reader like yourself prefer Plath before Tate Virgil? I have only recently discovered the man, but my poet's nose certainly knows the difference between a Pinto and a Thoroughbred.

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I probably have read Tate somewhere but I can't remember any of his work. I didn't say that I prefered Plath over anyone. I just said her work was not bad. Plus I picked Plath second because it would be a fiesty discussion. ;)

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I probably have read Tate somewhere but I can't remember any of his work. I didn't say that I prefered Plath over anyone. I just said her work was not bad. Plus I picked Plath second because it would be a fiesty discussion. ;)

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And here I thought you and I had both learned a thing or two about thriving on conflict:p.

Seriously, Plath is so close to Bukowski in motivational impetus that your defense surprises me. JBI's astute objections aside, from what I know of the literary criticism out there, her reputation is in decline, deservedly, but I will make that case later.

First let me admit my vote: Tate (1), McGuckian (2), Montale (3). Members...Bitterfly, Il Penseroso, Petrarch's Love, Quark, Sofia 82, Epistemophile, Dapper Drake, Mortalterror and Kafka's Crow have not gone to the poll.

I picked Plath second because it would be a fiesty discussion.;)

Perhaps... :lol:If JBI or I... or JoZ were to participate it might be more along the line of a feeding frenzy.

Right now, unless some of the slacker members vote, (I mean that respectfully), we are in a dead heat for first...Montale and Tate. The illustrious and embattled Plath is third or second.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

Seriously, Plath is so close to Bukowski in motivational impetus that your defense surprises me.

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No I disagree with that. She may be sensational like Bukowski but that's neither here nor there. Shakespeare was sensational. Bukowski's use of language is like a buffoon; Plath has a fine writing voice and really stresses the language for tension. I agree she can be juvinile at times, but she did not fully mature as a writer. She was young. But sometimes she hits it.

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JBI's astute objections aside, from what I know of the literary criticism out there, her reputation is in decline, deservedly, but I will make that case later.

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Well, evaluations go up and down. All I'm saying is she belongs in the canon of American poetry of the post WWII era. Hemingway's reputation goes up and down and he's still in the canon.

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

Right now, unless some of the slacker members vote, (I mean that respectfully), we are in a dead heat for first...Montale and Tate. The illustrious and embattled Plath is third or second.

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I have faith that Petrarch Love's discrimination will save us from disaster.:D

I have faith that Petrarch Love's discrimination will save us from disaster.

Yes... but then there's always MortalTerror who may just vote for Plath simply because JBI and I have expressed a dislike for her work.:D

More Sonnets At Christmas
by Allen Tate

(1942)

To Denis Devlin


I


Again the native hour lets down the locks
Uncombed and black, but gray the bobbing beard;
Ten years ago His eyes, fierce shuttlecocks,
Pierced the close net of what I failed: I feared
The belly-cold, the grave-clout, that betrayed
Me dithering in the drift of cordial seas;
Ten years are time enough to be dismayed
By mummy Christ, head crammed between his knees.


Suppose I take an arrogant bomber, stroke
By stroke, up to the frazzled sun to hear
Sun-ghostlings whisper: Yes, the capital yoke—
Remove it and there’s not a ghost to fear
This crucial day, whose decapitate joke
Languidly winds into the inner ear.



II


The day’s at end and there’s nowhere to go,
Draw to the fire, even this fire is dying;
Get up and once again politely lying
Invite the ladies toward the mistletoe
With greedy eyes that stare like an old crow.
How pleasantly the holly wreaths did hang
And how stuffed Santa did his reindeer clang
Above the golden oaken mantel, years ago!



Then hang this picture for a calendar,
As sheep for goat, and pray most fixedly
For the cold martial progress of your star,
With thoughts of commerce and society,
Well-milked Chinese, Negroes who cannot sing,
The Huns gelded and feeding in a ring.



III


Give me this day a faith not personal
As follows: The American people fully armed
With assurance policies, righteous and harmed,
Battle the world of which they’re not at all.
That lying boy of ten who stood in the hall,
His hat in hand (thus by his father charmed:
“You may be President”), was not alarmed
Nor even left uneasy by his fall.



Nobody said that he could be a plumber,
Carpenter, clerk, bus-driver, bombardier;
Let little boys go into violent slumber,
Aegean squall and squalor where their fear
Is of an enemy in remote oceans
Unstalked by Christ: these are the better notions.
{excerpt}

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I have faith that Petrarch Love's discrimination will save us from disaster.

Yes... but then there's always MortalTerror who may just vote for Plath simply because JBI and I have expressed a dislike for her work.:D

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If Petrarch votes Montale or Tate though, Plath cannot win unless there are other voters.

I will pull for Montale between those two. Never read any of his work but I am not much of a fan of Tate. I suppose some of his stuff is somewhat interesting but all in all don't care for him.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

I have faith that Petrarch Love's discrimination will save us from disaster.:D

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Goodness! My vote seems to unexpectedly have become a topic of discussion. I could become corrupted by this unexpected power and perversely vote Plath.:D Of course, that might mean I would have to discuss her work, which, I'm not particularly tempted by. Thus my vote stands:

1. Montale
2. Bishop
3. Tate

update on the vote: Paz=1.00/ Akhmatova=0.50/ Montale=3.66/ McGuckian=0.50/ Bishop=1.33/ Plath=2.00/ Tate=2.66. Somebody get another registered voter out here. The poet in the lead at midnight will win the day. Zarathustra thus spake.

I have no great problem with Montale that I know of; that he is an Italian modernist doesn't automatically earn him my featly (and I can see Virgil raise an eyebrow, given my largesse toward the homeland...) but I am still stuck in the same refrain of journeying for my supper. I will not take the bus to Paley simply for a book of poetry--because; however, if I can manage with my ailing chair, I'll check the public branch next week, although I am hesitant to be optimistic.

I purchased Tate to treat myself, and believe he is worth a rare dessert, but I can't splurge on too much for the sake of this club.

AS it is 12:00 now, I guess we can say Montale has won? If so, can we start selecting editions? Preferably a bilingual one, but that is not a necessity - the most readily available large one I can seem to find is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Collected-Poem...3697430&sr=8-1 and I can't seem to find a complete works, but the reviews, if they are to be trusted, seem to be conflicting. Perhaps we would prefer a single volume however?

JBI: [Collected Poems, 1920-1954: Revised Bilingual Edition (Paperback)
by Eugenio Montale (Author), Jonathan Galassi (Translator)] This collection sounds perfect and bilingual is best, as far as I'm concerned. I'm waiting for Stlukes. to suggest one, as per my request, since he is more familiar than I. Thanks. PS: B&N has this text also... http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...+Montale&SAT=1

"Doubt" from The Collected Poems (1920-1954)
Published by Farrar Straus Giroux - Translated by Jonathan Galassi
Obtained from Musil Institute

I was giving a lecture
to the "Friends of Cacania"
on the subject "Is Life Likely?"
when I remembered I
was totally agnostic,
love and hate in equal parts and the outcome
unsure, depending on the moment.
Then I decided five minutes
were enough--
two and a half for the thesis
two and a half for the antithesis
this was the only homage possible
for a man without qualities.
I spoke exactly thirty-five seconds.
And when I said
that yes and no were look alikes
shouts and whispers interrupted my talk
and I awoke. It was the most laconic dream
of my life, maybe the only one not devoid
of "quality."

{this early tidbit from Project Muse}

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

"Doubt" from The Collected Poems (1920-1954)
Published by Farrar Straus Giroux - Translated by Jonathan Galassi
Obtained from Musil Institute

I was giving a lecture
to the "Friends of Cacania"
on the subject "Is Life Likely?"
when I remembered I
was totally agnostic,
love and hate in equal parts and the outcome
unsure, depending on the moment.
Then I decided five minutes
were enough--
two and a half for the thesis
two and a half for the antithesis
this was the only homage possible
for a man without qualities.
I spoke exactly thirty-five seconds.
And when I said
that yes and no were look alikes
shouts and whispers interrupted my talk
and I awoke. It was the most laconic dream
of my life, maybe the only one not devoid
of "quality."

{this early tidbit from Project Muse}

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Any chance you have the original Italian?

I have access to it but I just enrolled so it might take some time.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Yes... but then there's always MortalTerror who may just vote for Plath simply because JBI and I have expressed a dislike for her work.:D

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I was actually trying to keep out of that mess; but incidentally I loved her book, and liked some of the poems I've read by her. When I read The Bell Jar in high school, I thought it was Catcher in the Rye for chicks, which would explain why you wouldn't go for it.

My earlier participation was prompted more out of a love of Ovid than an interest in Roethke. I don't know much about these modern poets; but I'm sure whatever you choose will be fine.

If Montale were to be selected I would suggest one of two highly regarded translators. The first is William Arrowsmith; the second is Jonathan Galassi. Both translations have been acclaimed by some rather discerning critics including Anthony Hecht and Harold Bloom, although I personally prefer Arrowsmith's translations... but then again, these are the ones I was first introduced to Montale on. The Galassi translation can be seen here:

http://www.amazon.com/Collected-Poem...3704695&sr=1-1

This volume includes Montale's three major collections: Cuttlefish Bones, The Occasions, and The Storm and other Poems. It might be the best deal if someone were to wish for a broader survey of the poet's work. Arrowsmith translated all three of these volumes as well as Satura, a volume of late poems. Unfortunately only Satura and Cuttlefish Bones are still in print. On the other hand, A complete survey of Montale's work might be too much to begin with. Cuttlefish Bones is a seminal collection... not unlike The Wasteland and other Poems, Pasternak's My Sister-Life, Rilke's New Poems or Duino Elegies, etc... It contains many of Montale's most famous poems and is far less hermetic than some of the later work. It might also be more informative to explore a body of work intended as a unified whole as opposed to a retrospective volume.

http://www.amazon.com/Cuttlefish-Bon...3704695&sr=1-2

Either volume contains both the Italian and the English facing... useful for JBI and Petrarch. Both are also voluminously annotated. Again... if Montale were/is the clear winner of the poll I have no problem with using either of these books... both of which I own... but I would again lean toward Arrosmith who seems to be THE Montale translator much as Hamburger is THE Holderlin translator.

William Arrowsmith is the man! His translation of Petronius' Satyricon is amazing; some of the best I've ever seen. His translations of Euripides are also pretty great. He has a collection of the ancient Greek plays translated entirely by poets, which beats the heck out of those cheap Grene and Lattimore volumes everyone's always buying.

If you, Mortal and Stlukes are in enthusiastic agreement on Arrowsmith, then I'll try to make sure whatever collection we use will be translated by him. The two comparisons that Stlukes sent seem to prove your point. Montale looks to be a fascinating study.

William Arrowsmith is the man! His translation of Petronius' Satyricon is amazing; some of the best I've ever seen. His translations of Euripides are also pretty great. He has a collection of the ancient Greek plays translated entirely by poets, which beats the heck out of those cheap Grene and Lattimore volumes everyone's always buying.

Mark the calendar, Mortal. We actually agree with all you have said!:eek::lol:

PS... I fixed the broken links to Amazon and the two translations discussed... including Arrowsmith's Cuttlefish Bones.

http://www.amazon.com/Cuttlefish-Bon...3704695&sr=1-2

Answering Quasimodo, who doesn't seem to be authorised to receive messages, for some reason! :D

I did go and look at the choice of poets that was offered, but didn't feel eligible to vote, for a simple reason: I have a lot of work to do, and don't have easy access to the books you've put up for the vote! So I'll be following what you all say with a lot of interest, but don't know if I'll be able to join in very much, therefore I felt I shouldn't be trying to impose my preferences!

Plus I'm not really sure about the relevance of studying poets in translation - reading them for pleasure, why not (although I like to have the original under my eyes). I probably would have voted for Bishop or Plath for that reason (and there, I've ended up choosing :D).

So has it been decided? Is it Montale? If so I will need to order the book. I guess that Arrowsmith translation is the preferred? But unfotunately the Arrowsmith book only has seven years worth of Montale's poetry, while the other one has a life span.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

So has it been decided? Is it Montale? If so I will need to order the book. I guess that Arrowsmith translation is the preferred? But unfotunately the Arrowsmith book only has seven years worth of Montale's poetry, while the other one has a life span.

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Half life - it goes up to 54 I believe, but he published past that - though apparently not too much.

Now I feel bad for not buying that complete poems copy I saw in an Italian book store for 9 Euros (hardcover). Though it wouldn't have the English, it would have had the complete selection - oh well, opted for Campana instead for some reason.

Looks great. I put in a vote for Montale because I know next to nothing about him but have long meant to look into his stuff. I'll most likely be able to access any volume you decide on at our university library, so just give the heads up when you've decided on the book.

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William Arrowsmith is the man! His translation of Petronius' Satyricon is amazing; some of the best I've ever seen. His translations of Euripides are also pretty great. He has a collection of the ancient Greek plays translated entirely by poets, which beats the heck out of those cheap Grene and Lattimore volumes everyone's always buying.

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Nonsense. Everyone knows it's simply not done to buy anything but Loeb editions. Festive, Christmas-like red and green shelves are the badge of honor of the dead language geek! :D Seriously, though, I am also an Arrowsmith fan. I didn't know he had done Italian translation too, so I'll be interested to look at his work with Montale.

How about we try his first anthology, Cuttlefish Bones, then?

JBI: This "cuttlefish" collection...it is bilingual, correct? Looks like we will be purchasing the text and I'm willing to transfer any text to file...in order to transmit the material to anyone who needs to avoid spending thier hard-earned funds. Looks like you, Stlukes, Jozanny and Virgil have the podium, (snickering), until at least 9 or 10PM.

Yes... it is bilingual and contains a good amount of notes... although not as many as the Galassi edition. Shall we set a day/time to begin? I'll need some time to brush through the work, but I do have one poem I'd like to put out for discussion.

This will be our text/collection by Eugenio Montale, translated by William Arrowsmith. -- http://www.amazon.com/Cuttlefish-Bon...3704695&sr=1-2 Again, anyone without this text [which right now includes me] not to worry as poems discussed will be transmitted via PM as needed. For some examples of Montale's poetry, you can visit agni online. -- http://www-test.bu.edu/agni/poetry/p...6-montale.html .