Non, non et non!Quote:
Do You Believe In Ghosts or The Paranormal?
I wasted months looking for a paranormal slave during my early years: under my bed, in bathroom at night, in the ruins and everywhere else. What a disappointment!
Normal is weird enough as it is.
True dat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
An example of how easily people are willing to believe in ghosts, and then how easy it is to disprove these stories:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9DmF3Zc24
I love this guy, he's funny and good-natured. He has a lot of ghost story debunks, I recommend them.
No, I appreciate your explanation of grief; and it is one that many psychologists would offer also, if we were ever brave enough to share these things with our psycholgists and neurologists. :cold:Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
I didn't find your explanation for the picture, I looked several pages back.
I know that both sides of this argument have been insulted; which is why I have suggested making the discussion less personal. We can learn alot from each other. For instance, I know little of scientific explanations for much of this phenomena.
For me, I appreciate peoples experiences; and, I must admit, it was no more difficult for me to "take in" than the concept of "Fido" walking into the water one day and becoming a whale...Now, I buy both ideas.
I don't think people can bear the "burden of proof" for their personal experiences; because what we see is subjective. It is up to the scientific community to prove or disprove such things.
Thank you, Juniper. That really is something. I didn't think the thing in the window looked like a ghost; but I wasn't quite sure it looked like Ted Danson either. You make a good point though; there are many incidences in film where the paranormal was used to increase interest in the productions.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
I seem to recall that there were several rumors of the "Poltergeist" and "Twilight Zone" movies being cursed because of multiple deaths.
That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber.
Are you sure; I could have sworn I saw your face in the papers: Satan keeps man...oops, too late, ghost in chains under bed:smilielol5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
Argh! You know my secrets. I have to return some videotapes tonight. Coming with me? :ihih:Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
My explanation ---get ready for this--- is that it's a living human's face. I think it's conceivable that Niamh is having us on, or that it's someone she doesn't recognize, or that it's a reflection of someone's face. Aren't all of these more likely than that the face is a disembodied spirit, mugging from the great beyond?Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Janine didn't do us the courtesy of posting the picture she considers so otherworldly, but the principle is the same. She, too, could be having us on. Maybe her son is better at Photoshop than she realizes. Not having seen the face, I can't even say it looks like a face. If it does, maybe there really was a person outside the window, or it was a reflection of someone inside the room. Sound farfetched? Well, once again, how farfetched is it to believe it was the face of a ghost peering at the camera through a supernatural portal?
I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just trying to show that there's a way to play the odds when we're dealing with questions like these.
Regards,
Istvan
Oh my god, I haven't been out on a date in a year and I just bagged the king of hell...the man himself...though, if you don't mind, I prefer sleeping on the bed to sleeping under it:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
Istvan, I sincerely appreciate your honesty:nod: NOw, I wouldn't go running for a popularity contest anytime soon; you might get dragged behind a pick up to area 51::wink5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
I love him, he's funny. Here he takes on the most common example of paranormal phenomenon cited by ghost believers: the so-called "ghost orb" (ie. the little balls of light that sometimes show up in pictures).Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh80X...eature=channel
Here's another one, this is my absolute favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyR_WHEmO_4
I once stayed at a graveyard all night to see what would happen (I like to test things). It was creepy, and a deer in the woods scared me when it jumped through the trees. I also hung out in a hole in the ground of Louisburg where dozens of french Canadians got locked in and died of suffocation (this was like, 300 years ago). That was also pretty creepy. The marks were still on the walls from their fingernails.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
I love the ball guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
You are braver than I am; I don't even like graveyards during the day.
~Reminder~
Please do not personalise your arguments.
Posts containing personal/inflammatory comments and/or showing intolerance towards other's beliefs will be removed or edited without any further notice.
I think perhaps he still has the photo somewhere on his hard drive; but he is so 'touchy' when I have asked about it. The night he stayed in their house - he was suddenly awakened with some strange noise and he got up to investigate to see if his friends were playing games on him. He swears they both were sound asleep. I can tell you he must have been scared out of his wits; because he didn't sleep himself that night. This was before the photo was take and later found on his HD. His friends had told him they experienced some odd occurances in the house. The house was way out in the country. When my son showed my mother and I the photo and then he blew it up, it definitely looked to be a woman's face. I brought up the idea of it being reflected in the glass. He said absolutely no one else was in the house, but he and his friend, Joe. I know my son was not lying, if you could have seen the fearful excitement in his eyes. He's a joker sometimes; but I can tell when he is joking. He absolutely knows nothing of altering photos. I can swear for that. These were the raw files on his laptop, he bought just for his photography. He takes thousands of photos. He was very frightened everytime, I have mentioned that one photo. I just talked to Joe not long ago and he said he gave a copy to the Rutgers University Paranormal Society. If there wasn't any credence to it they would not have accepted the photo. They were pleased to have it. I found it fascinating, when I first viewed the photo, and I still do. I didn't feel any fear but then again I wasn't to the house.Quote:
That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy.
I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber.
My aunt lived in a historical house and she and her husband claimed to have experienced a spirit; not on one, but many occasions. Her mother moved in the top floor apparment and she also had sitings. I do not any longer think it far-fetched at all. I don't know about the orbs, not just being some sort of natural phenomena; but I have seen photos like Nimah's which cleary show faces...one was away from a group in a graveyard, between what looked to be orbs of light. I notice those in the right of your photo, Niamh; did they disguss those at your group? My son's face photo was even clearer.
Like you, Janine, I do believe in ghosts. It has been asked why ghosts would "hang around". I have no idea; but I will say this: I don't find that people gain a great deal of insight or change a great deal on their death bed; so I don't see why ghosts would suddenly be any different than they were in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Personally, I expect that if I come back, I will still be a couch potato.
Yes I believe in the paranormal...but perhaps not in the traditional sense. I have seen far to much evil that is unexplainable to believe otherwise. The flip side however is to ask if it is only evil that seems to remain here after passing...
It is difficult not to believe in ghosts. Things happen here, normal and paranormal and we try to rationalize the phenomena we come across every so often in every walk of life.
I have so many moments I have across things that are paranormal and the experiences mystical. The words I use cannot contain all my feelings and experiences.
If there can be a mind to mind communication then only I can convince the other person I want to share with
Well, I don't want to believe in ghosts :lol: but a couple of creepy things have happened to me, so I'll tell and you decide.
When my grandparents moved to an old age home all their furniture was divided between their children and grandchildren. I got my grandma's cabinet with a sewing machine built into it and we keep all our sewing things in the cabinet... I always lock the cabinet; it's got this tough lock that crunches when you turn the key.
My mom's usually the one that uses the cabinet and my brother will open it occasionally to get a needle, but both of them are forever leaving the cabinet door open. So a few years back there was a period where the door was almost permanently open. Whenever I got home I'd have to close it, or when I was done watching t.v. or reading in the lounge I'd go to my room and the ruddy thing would have its mouth wide open again. So I'd go to my mom and brother and ask them to just lock it when they are done, pretty please. However, every time I asked them they would always say they didn't open the cabinet that day. I just assumed they were lying because they are always getting into trouble for leaving doors and cupboards open. It kept going on like that until they started to get irritated with me for asking them to close the door all the time. One Friday my parents and my brother were getting things ready to go away for the weekend, but I decided to stay home. I went into my room and saw the door was open. I closed and locked it, turned around and stood in my doorway while everyone was walking past me into the kitchen and out the back door. I followed them out, saw them get into the car and drive off. I went back into the house, walked down the passage and, low and behold, the door is open again. There was literally no way that anyone could have opened it since I was the last person to leave the house and the only one to go back into it. There are no back doors or windows to get in and why would anyone do that anyway?
Anyway, make of it what you will, but it totally freaked me out that day. I locked it again and then put my bag in front of it. For a long time I always had something in front of the door...now only occasionally, but due to space issues, hehehe. It was only a year or so after that day that I realised the ’open-door’ period started right after my gran’s death...dum dum duuuuummmmmm :D
I think it's interesting. If you checked the lock to make sure it doesn't slip and make sure the cabinet doors are even so they don't slip; then I'd believe for myself it was gran...then again, I find the idea of the supernatural very natural and comforting.
No, and no.
Actually, I checked the lock every time I locked the door after my mom or brother 'left it open'. It's diffcult to turn the key...and the door doesn't slip, so even if I didn't lock it if will stay closed because it's a tight fit. That's what freaked me out even more, because I might have been able to blame it on the cat/s somehow (I would have found a way - denial is such a lovely thing :D), but it's impossible for anything/one else but a human to open that door...and only if you intended to, not just by bumping the cabinet or brushing past the key and thereby turning it.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Anyway, whatever, I'm not saying it was a ghost. It was however the fist time in my life where I felt totally freaked out by the possiblity.
Hello there :)
Where I come from and as someone stated that spirits are not ghosts...
what i know that spirits of dead people come to their family and friends for extra help
as in prayer ...when they are not peaceful or facing trouble in grave.
they usually visit people whom they know.
but they cannot be seen.
however there is what is called : Jin and or perhaps gennies in english but ofourse has nothing ever to do with a lamp like aladdin that was a story LOL :D
there are good and bad and they can be seen sometimes.
I dont believe in the paranormal.
And of course I have never experienced any supernatural phenomena.
I think it's a tragedy how easily people adopt the viewpoint that there are paranormal things. I went to the book store recently and found 2 shelves of science literature next to a shocking 7 shelves of esoterics and paranormal activity and stuff. That ratio is a disgrace to the human species.
I'm not dogmatically insisting that all paranormal claims are nonsense (yet I very much believe so), I'd quickly change my view if evidence came up. Yet seriously, there are so many alternative explanations for all the phenomena mentioned here. It's so far fetched to think that there are ghosts, souls, demons or whatever responsible for this.
Twice I have been asked to check out 'psi' sites where they claim to have evidence for paranormal mind power stuff. I did so and found obvious inconsistencies in the statistical data, i.e. they claimed the 'James Randi Challenge' is unfair because odds of 100'000 to 1 against chance are impossible to achieve, even with (not too strong) paranormal powers. On another part of the very same website, they claim experiments with results of billions to 1 against chance have been done. Now if that isn't dishonest!
As a side note, Paul the Octopus managed to get 256 to 1 against chance at predicting games in the soccer world cup, and to some people this is actually sufficient evidence that the thing is psychic! I've gotten beat in poker hands where odds were above 1000 to 1, yet this stuff happens if the sample is big enough. There are 6 billion people on earth, if everyone started 10 series of coin-flipping with the intent of getting as much heads as possible, odds are decent that one person will get heads 36 times in a row. And that's nothing supernatural, it's simple statistics!
Now if the same thing was done by everyone on earth, every day for one's whole life, it is actually likely that one person will hit a fantastic, incredibly amazingly awesome streak of legendary 50 times heads (another would hit 50 times tails if we change the rule to pursue tail streaks as well). And it will all mean: literally nothing.
I like parapsychology. It is not only about ghosts and other scary things. It is investigation of things about our world and human beings in it that have not been explained yet.
I voted no. there is no such thing as paranormal. it is us that are or imagine to be.
Thus far in human history it has been, and will continue to be Science that unlocks the mysteries of the universe.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by free
I just voted yes, because I have seen the ghost of my aunt when she died over 20 years ago. I was in Maine, in graduate school, minding my own business, when she appeared in the student common room of the house where I was staying. We had a brief conversation in our minds and she vanished. Later I got a call from my parents saying that she had died.
Raymond Moody, who coined the term, "near death experience" called these experiences "shared death experiences". Although rare they are not that uncommon. There are two other members of my extended family who experienced something similar when a relative died.
When someone who is supposedly a scientist, who doesn't believe that such experiences are real, explains such things, what that person does is comes up with a rationalization of the experience so that it doesn't disturb his or her materialist metaphysics. That process is not science. It is rationalization or an inappropriate way to deal with cognitive dissonance.
There are scientists who study the paranormal. One that I have liked to read is Dean Radin.
YesNo how do you mean byQuote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
''a conversation in our mind''?
and what was it that you said?
Basically, words were exchanged, but I didn't actually hear them. It is like talking to oneself. She seemed concerned. I lived with her when I was around 10 for a year. She was a little hard to please from a 10-year old's perspective, but all she was was impatient and she and my uncle were arguing to help keep her on edge. What she said was, more or less, "I'm sorry." What I said was, more or less, "It OK."
interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
the other thing is why would she appear in a place you were at but one that she does not know of.
I thought ghosts only appeared in the place where they either died or they know,
Neither of us had any reason to know where the other one was. We were not close and had not seen each of in over a decade. She died thousands of miles from where I was studying. And yet the first time I thought of her in years was the time when she died.Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Even if it was all in my mind, which is what I thought at the time, the coincidence of her death and this conversation makes me think there was more to it. Add to that the reports of other people who have had similar experiences and I conclude, whatever it was, it was not all in my mind.
There may be other types of ghosts that haunt places. I haven't experienced ghosts in that way, but, given the experience with my aunt, I have no reason to believe that such things don't happen.
Sure. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Sparrow
Except the one that overides all others i.e. What is the reason for the universe ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Sparrow
You mean, the ultimate truths, Emil? Why shouldn't they be the subject for science?
I don't say that they shouldn't be of concern to science but human beings have been asking themselves what is the meaning of life and the universe since time immemorial and they are no nearer the answer than they have always been.Quote:
Originally Posted by free
Science has been studying the paranormal for over 100 years. Dean Radin's writing summarize the scientific results: http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/TCUindex.html Rupert Sheldrake attempts to build a falsifiable, scientific theory that incorporates mind on the idea of morphic fields. The bottom line for me of this research is that one cannot reduce mind or consciousness or first person awareness to any of the three currently promoted, and presumably unconscious, candidates: subatomic particles, selfish genes or neurons.
At the same time, we haven't figured out the meaning of life although the best first step is a belief that it is good.
I realize I could have avoided all that rambling by just saying I agree with both free and Emil Miller.
First of all, I want to carp about the category "I'm open minded about the subject." That is something that could apply to those who chose any of the other categories, from not believing to believing that everything can be explained by science (especially the latter, since science remains open to any new empirical data squeezing through its method). It would have been interesting to see the categories people would have chosen if that had not been an option. I suspect more people would have said no if they really had to choose.
Now that I've got that off my chest, I will believe in ghosts when they can be conjured up in laboratory conditions with repeatable results. Until then, they remain a matter of faith, and I do not have faith in their existence. (It is a source of amazement and amusement to me, by the way, how many people believe in ghosts, or souls, or soul mates, or a host of other things they find cool, but disdain faith in God as wishful thinking--but I guess that is for another discussion). I don't believe in ghosts, but of course I am open-minded to the possibility of their eventual "discovery."
I did have a strange experience, though, and I fully admit that at the time it was a little scary. It happened a few years ago when I was living in a country town in New England--not too remote but remote enough. My wife was visiting her family in the Far East at the time and I had been living on my own for about two months. One night in late September I was standing at our kitchen sink rinsing off some dishes. There is a window over the sink that looks into the back yard, and as I stood there, I saw a sudden small flash of light, maybe six feet above the ground, and about 100 feet away. It was much too large to have been a firefly but too small to have been much of anything else. If anyone here is old enough to remember that long extinct dinosaur of photography known as a flash cube, it had that sort of size and intensity.
My initial response was: What the hell was that? The thought or feeling that it had been supernatural didn't enter into my mind. It had happened so quickly and unexpectedly, though, that I didn't really know what I had seen. I wasn't ready for it. Then, perhaps 20 seconds later, there was a second flash, directly in front of the window. It created the frightening illusion that whatever had flashed the first time had flown directly at my face. That startled me to the point of physical fear, by which I mean that the hair on my arms stood on end. (Yes, yes, "PAM has hair on his arms." :) )
At that point I left the kitchen and sat in the chair where I like to read. I thought rational thoughts and read rational things, and after some time, I got a grip and actually went into the back yard. There was no sign of spooks, or aliens, or even soul mates. It was much to cold for anything like fireflies, though--the first cold night of the year.
That's sort of the end of the story, except for a strange dream I had that night (or actually the next early morning) that those who believe in ghosts may consider evidence for their view. It was a type of dream I have had all my life, although I get it only once or twice every few years. I dream that I wake up and get out of bed--the dream being so vivid, realistic, and accurate in detail that it may as well be real as far as my perception is concerned. But these dreams are always nightmares and always involve evil spirits or ghosts or whatever you want to call them. This was a relatively mild one.
In this dream, I awoke and, as usual, I talked a little with my wife a little before getting up. (That, of course, should have been the tell-tale sign that something was fishy, since she was in Taipei at the time). As we talked, though, I became increasingly aware that, although she looked and sounded like my wife, there was something missing; in some intangible way, it just wasn't her. At one point, she told me that the ground was very cold. "Just look outside," she said, "and you will see the frost." I got up, drew the curtains on a window back, and saw frost glistening in the morning light. I continued to have a strong feeling that this was not really my wife.
At that point, I turned and faced the woman, who unbeknownst to me had also risen and was standing directly behind me. I got a little start since she was closer to me than I had thought. Finally I looked her in the eyes and said, "Look, I don't mean to offend you, but I should tell you that I know that you aren't really [my wife's name]. The woman glared at me with a mixture of hatred and disdain, then turned around and stalked out of the bedroom. At that point I awoke for real and in terror. No ghost was there, and of course the window curtain was closed; but when I did draw it back, I looked down on the same frost glittering on the late September grass.
This was a dream, nothing more. It may have been brought on by the earlier fright, with the detail of the frost added simply because it was a cold night. Although it has not been exclusively so, I have tended to get that kind of vivid dream on nights when I find myself alone. After considerable scientific and spiritual reflection, I have decided that it's because I am a big wuss.
Abut five years ago my friend and longtime work colleague got married (she was middle-aged -- her second marriage). I had dinner at a table with her aunt and uncle. The uncle was Lewis Mudge, a theologian, Episcopal Priest, and former professor at Amherst and University of Chicago -- and my friend thought her aunt (a documentary film-maker) and uncle and I would hit it off, which is why she seated us together.
She was right. We had a great time at dinner and at the wedding. I told her how much I enjoyed her relatives.
About two months later, she came into my office at work. "Let's look google my uncle, whom you met at the wedding," she said. "I just want to show you how famous he is and how many books he's written."
So we googled him, and talked about my conversation with him and his wife, and how much I enjoyed their company.
The next day, my friend told me that her father had called that morning and told her that the uncle had died suddenly (he was 80 years old) at almost the exact time we were having our conversation the day before. What possessed her to think about her uncle at that precise moment?
Of course, any supernatural experience was hers -- not mine.
One side note: my friend's aunt and uncle once lived in Emily Dickinson's old house in Amherst.
I agree with this. But, being an incurable optimist :), I still believe and hope that when we here, on Earth, stop investing most of our intelligence into fighting and distruction, the day will come to reveal the mysteries of life that interest us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
That's interesting stuff Pompey. I like your attitude in that you don't overblow it but are willing to share.
I've had a few experiences - nothing very startling - where it just defies explanation, and I think an open sensible mind is the right approach. One of the difficulties with strange experiences is the fact of them being unrepeatable. In that sense science can't comment on it, but should be open minded too. Ghosts in all likelihood do not exist in the way they are traditionally presented otherwise we would see more of them. The x factor in such recounts is the human mind and it's potential.
I was a profound sceptic on all things that come under the paranormal banner my attitude was show me some positive evidence then I’ll consider it. Then, a few years ago I was shown positive evidence.
My wife and I had recently moved to the Romney Marsh in the county of Kent. The Romney and the Walland Marsh’s are flat wetlands reclaimed over the centuries from the sea. You can easily acquire more info from the web.
The roads across the marsh twist and turn dramatically, bends are very near the left and right turns. They are unlit at night, very narrow and many have irrigation ditches either side. None have paths or pavements. To sum up they can be very dangerous to drive on at night.
We had made our Christmas Eve rounds to our London relatives and friends and had left it late to drive home so it was two o’clock on Christmas morning when I was driving across the Marsh. It was a cold crystal clear night with a heavy frost on the road I could see ice forming in the headlights. I was approaching a very sharp bend, so sharp that it was impossible to see round the other side.
Halfway round the bend a figure was standing by the side of the road. My wife screamed as I swerved to avoid hitting him, the car skidded across towards a steep ditch. I don’t know how but I regained control and braked to a stop.
My wife was in a state of shock, I was absolutely livid; the idiot had almost killed the both of us. I opened the car door,
“John don’t, it never had a face”
“That’s not all he’ll be missing if I get hold of him”
I ran around the corner, there was no one there. He couldn’t have gone anywhere, there was a bright moon and in the flat empty fields, there was simply no where to hide.
My recollection of the figure is only based on a second or two but it was tall wearing an ankle long garment, it held its hands high to its face as if it was reading a book.
It could have only been no more than a foot from my wife on the nearside passenger seat but still to today she never discusses it and hates it when I tell friends of the experience.
Personally I don’t care if anyone believes this tale of not, I know its true and that’s all that matters. Have I any explanation? Well no, but if you twist my arm I have come round to the theory that we experienced a Time Slip. We were witnessing an episode from the past. The figure itself had no substance; it never belonged to our time. It wouldn’t have mattered if I had driven straight through it, though that option wasn’t available at the time.
The occurrence of Time Slips is not as rare as I once thought and they fit more comfortably with an explanation of ghostly experiences than many others.
I think that one will need more than optimism. The digital revolution has enabled science to make some headway in answering the question, 'how'? but until it can answer 'why'?, it will have failed to solve the fundamental problem that besets the human race.Quote:
Originally Posted by free
I think I can explain this phenomenon. It was also in the early hours of the morning when I was a passenger in a car being driven along a deserted country road in Somerset. The driver and his wife were seated in the front and, as we turned a bend, I saw a strange figure standing at the side of the road ahead. My friends told me that on one occasion they had seen what looked exactly like a man standing by the road at a similar hour and only later did they discover that, for some reason, pockets of fog form shapes momentarily before disappearing into the atmosphere. I must say that the object I saw certainly looked solid enough but their explanation put my mind at ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carousel