Quote:
Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry
...cartoon series?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry
...cartoon series?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wUk_b2rHk4
cartoon series
Worse than what exactly? To the time when black people are not allowed to study together in school? Than a time that mroe than half of the kids in western world (hahahaha, I laugh of those claiming the end of western civilization and only talking about England and United States, such hypocrisy) had no access to schools? It was not that long ago. The system of education got worst, but it is an improvement to discuss which system to teach rather how to make kids go to school in masses in first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
As for changes, the man in your signature could live to his 80 year birthday today. A more inclusive society has advantages and new problems. That is simple.
Worse than what I said here:Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
You'll also notice included in there, my belief in the positive changes and freedoms for minorities today, the type that people like Wilde had to die for in the past - granted, but neither do I walk around thinking that the world is rosy either.Quote:
I’m speaking of what I see as a general decline in manners, in respect, over the last 40/50 years – or really in my lifetime. There are some great positives today for sure; a greater openness for minorities and certain flexibilities, but...
Also, I do not place Yorkshire, UK, at the centre of the universe. Rather, that this is my own immediate experience, limited experience perhaps, but my own experience nevertheless. This is not hypocrisy, this is simply common sense. People have a tendency to see things from their own perspective, in their own society and if I lived in the Congo then my experience would be different, but this does not make me an hypocrite.
I was speaking to a lad who comes from Gambia the other day. He was laughing at why people here criticise the quality of the roads so much here (Sheffield). He says that back in Gambia you need a 4x4 just to get around even on the "best" roads, which are dirt tracks. But things are relative and this is not a valid comparison. If I was to come off of my bike because of the pot holes, am I not to complain? What does the roads back in Gambia mean to me with a bruised head?
In short, I'm primarily talking about the decline of the UK, as this is where I live.
Edit: and if anecdotes are invalid, how do you expect me to talk about Brazil when I've never been there?
It is not even directed to you, but I can talk about england. I did. 40 years ago, the punk movement was persecuted. Police didnt allowed it. Use of drugs was very dangerous, most because of hygiene.
Of course, the question is again, worst than what? Manners? What exactly? Lord Dumpty threated Lord Humpty well? We do not leave the bus seating for ladies? All of this come in consequence of inclusion - Women may have lost some special treatment, but they have others.
And of course, today we are less blind to international consequences. Civilizaition in england and trash can in India. Democracy in America, dictadors in South America. All of this is Western civilization.
Well, I couldn't agree any more with that. That is what I meant when I said that we have a more sophisticated system of slavery and torture today than under the feudal system - read back - is this the improvement you speak of by the way?Quote:
And of course, today we are less blind to international consequences. Civilizaition in england and trash can in India. Democracy in America, dictadors in South America. All of this is Western civilization.
However, you keep asking more than what and I keep explaining; a fall in common decency and general respect. I am mostly speaking in regards to education. Firsly, because this is what I know, and secondly, because it is so important for the future and it reflects something of society at large. Here, myself and about 95%+ of the people I speak with, see and feel a decline; it is quite apparent.
Again, I cannt even agree: 40 years ago, only 30% brazilians had finished basic school, today 90% are considered alphabetized. This is education improving. In the 40's the questions about literacy is if the kid could read or not, today if they could understand or manipulate the text, which implies the stage of basic literacy is fullfilled. This is improvement. I do think a educational system that is too inclusive (an improvement) also generate a downgrading of certain educational areas (a set-back).
As common decency: combat to racism, care with people with special needs, women rights: they seem to have improved, dont you agree? General respect? Today we are imposed the respect the different sexual opinions, race, believes. 30 years ago? I just point that the inclusion and acceptance of differences generate conflicts. But that it is improvement.
And I do not think society have went down or up, I think it is finding solutions and creating new problems since ever.
I remember my wife telling me the classifications they had for the various conditions they had in hospitals in the UK in 1979 - Cretin was still used, as was Mongoloid etc etc. I broadly agree with you JC.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
I couldn't agree more. Discipline, as I quickly realised, needs to be there before learning can take place.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
And c*ck of the school was never a job I would have relished. The c*ck with whom I had dealings also had a hard time in secondary school for a while. It became clear that you needed friends. A severe beating sounds pretty bad. Was it a hospital job?
Hell, a little over 50 years ago in Quebec the children of unwed mothers were forcefully removed by the state and sent to medical institutions because bastards would be mentally ill, this was done in conjunction with the Catholic church that dominated public policy in Quebec at the period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans
I can't imagine anyone getting away with forcefully removing children from unwed mother's today.
Bringing this thread back to its original premise, I have been consulting some back numbers of Le Monde and Le Figaro ( I seldom read English newspapers these days because, in my view, they are not as informative) and in relation to what I have written earlier about the decline of Western culture and its replacement in the East, I have noticed that this is something frequently aired in French newspapers and magazines.
American influence is already on the wain in China as evidenced by this article from Le Monde:
Bye-bye Barbie! In China the culture is turning red.
In Shanghai, the American flagship toy company Mattel consecrated to Barbie has closed its doors but the Chinese equivalent is not yet ready to replace the famous doll.
The article goes on to say that only 25% of television programmes are foreign
and foreign films represent only a third of total projection time.
The search engine Baidu has over 80% of the market and Google has withdrawn from China.
Here is another headline from Le Figaro:
Ostentatious luxury has no place in Peking
Hide this luxury which runs contrary to equality
Peking is attacking the advertising of bling-bling. The authority for Industry and Commerce enjoins advertisers to cease promoting hedonism and the cult of foreign products in the Chinese capital. The words 'luxurious', 'class', 'royal' or 'supreme' are henceforth forbidden to publicists.
The article then states that eminent politicians have denounced conspicuous consumption of luxury products by the economic elite as being detrimental to the harmonious development of a middle class.
Another item from Le Monde has the heading: China's new affirmation of power reflects its nationalism
American diplomats have seen a change in Peking's attitude and a condescension to the world, notably towards Europe.
The recent Wikileaks scandal has revealed the extent to which China's economic power has impacted on its foreign policy in the increasing willingness to stand up to the West in its dealings on the international stage. The attached picture graphically underlines the way things are heading.
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8307/scan0006xt.jpg
The article continues with quotations from Wikileaks that confirm this: the most revealing being Hilary Clinton's remark concerning Tibet: "How can the US get tough with it's banker?"
Returning to another facet of the thread that has generated differing viewpoints i.e. anecdotal as opposed to statistical evidence, here is what Claude Gueant the French Interior Minister has to say about the National Front's dramatic gains in last week's cantonal elections: "The French feel that an excess of immigration, an illegal and unrequired immigration troubles them, upsets them. If we persist in denying the reality which is evident to their own eyes, we are paving the way for extremism."
Have you seen this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeoKQbT8BKs
It's all about the education. It does make it seem that the efforts on education are currently piecemeal.
Interesting video. Does it also not raise the question why IT is NOT a core subject in schools? There are changes to the core subjects of English, Maths and Science, to these, plus a Humanities and a Language, but again, no IT? Crazy. In fact IT is being devalued. Another top move by the old boys at the top.
I haven't had time to read through all these, but it seems to me that the only evidences to suggest that culture is in some sort of amorphous trashcan are shaky-at-best anecdotes. Someone even went so far as to point to lack of maturity on an MMORPG (massive multiplayer on-line role-playing game, i.e., World of Warcraft) to support this? Two things. First, online games are not meant to be taken any more seriously than the content they provide. Second, when I played WoW, I found plenty of people who could discuss politics, art, music cogently and effectively. Surprise, surprise, they weren't the same minority who spends time on Trade Chat shouting poop jokes.
It seems every anecdote presented is nothing more than a bad experience that somehow counts for more than exactly what it was--a bad experience. Someone told a story of how after giving out pens to a classroom, all pens were destroyed within minutes. I had four classes where, and in a week, after letting people borrow dozens of pens and pencils, I would lose maybe four-or-five by the end of the week. And these were kids who just misplaced their pen or pencil--almost all my students habitually brought all required materials (something else suggested to be an impossibility).
To add a caveat, I don't think anecdotes are completely invalid. They're just not valid enough alone to carry enough weight to win an argument (in my mind, at least).
Two assertions, at least within the first few pages had been made. That culture was on the rise and that it was on the decline. I think it's probably where it always has been. High art has always been something enjoyed by the minority--if there's been a time when their equal to jazz and opera was bigger than their equal to Justin Beiber, I am unaware of it.
I wonder if it's because they see it as a skill that the kids develop themselves? I remember that IT was going to become the fourth core essential subject. They backtracked on it though - perhaps because in Adult Learning a niche of forty- somethings who were working in low paid employment were the ones likely to be without IT or the oportunity to deveop it, whilst the kids were getting plenty in school, and either It had caught you already, you were working in an industry with IT, or you were a silver surfer with the opportunity to go to classes.