The Manufacture of Mozart

\du*et"\ (?), n. [duetto.] (mus.) a composition for two performers, whether vocal or instrumental.
duet
n
1. two items of the same kind [syn: couple, doubleton, pair, twosome, twain, brace, span, yoke, couplet, distich, duo, dyad, duad]


2. two performers or singers who perform together [syn: duette, duo]


3. a pair who associate with one another; "the engaged couple"; "an inseparable twosome" [syn: couple, twosome, duo]


4. a musical composition for two performers [syn: duette, duo]


5. a dance for two people (usually a ballerina and a danseur noble) [syn: pas de deux]

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

But you haven't presented any of it.

Did I miss where you showed signed declarations from these secret societies, declassified documents outlining their plan to manufacture the Mozart myth? Did you ever present a letter or memoir from the genius who really composed The Magic Flute, detailing the motives and methods of his assistance in this monumental fraud? Did you show us Mozart's written confession that he was a huge no-talent who depended entirely on the works of others (at the behest of the Jesuits and Freemasons) for his catalogue and reputation?

No, you've just presented various anomalies in the Mozart biography, such as misattributed early works. You've made grandiose pronouncements about how brainwashed everyone but yourself is by the Mozart Myth. And that's supposed to convince us of the existence of this vast historical conspiracy?

All I'm doing is being as skeptical of your claims as I would of anyone else's. If someone presents records from MI5 showing that Mussolini was on the payroll during WWI, I accept the claim. But unless you show me evidence that secret societies manufactured the Mozart Myth out of thin air, I remain unconvinced.

Regards,

Istvan

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I have presented a good general outline. If you wish to discuss a specific work why not ask me to discuss it ? You present your evidence that Mozart composed it and I will produce evidence to the contrary. The Magic Flute would be fine. But it's your choice. Each work has its own story. Of course it does.

You will not find signed records of those who plan conspiracies. You will not find such things in the history of banknote forgery. Let us be fair and reasonable. These things are proved by inconsistencies, by documentary evidence of other kinds. The very thing we find when we examine Mozart in real detail. By plain evidence which contradicts convention. And so on.

So, if you are really interested in this subject, name a work you wish to discuss and let's take it from there.

W a r n i n g

You do not have to agree with other members but please do not disregard their right to be on this Forum posting as much as yourselves.

Posts containing personal/inflammatory comments will be removed without further warning and members resorting to such "attacks" will receive infraction points.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

What they wanted was control. Control of the music industry. Control of what is believed and taught. Control of Mozart's life and career at every stage. Even at the expense of reality itself. And they did it. By dominating the field of music publishing, books on music history, and musical performance. So the myth became 'history' and the truth was thrown in the trash. Easier to control a musical icon from Salzburg than to tell the real story of dozens of people.

This must surely be one of the most inane parts of your entire theory. You ask that we accept the idea that a vast conspiracy was undertaken by various clandestine societies (a conspiracy that continues into the present) which involved the labors of untold hundreds... the enforced silence of who knows how many (including the true composers of Mozart's masterworks who one would assume would wish the world to know the truth)... the falsification of historic documents... and an expenditure of what must have amounted to a sizable fortune all to what purpose? The control of a non-existent music "industry" in the day before copyright laws and sound recordings made music in any way truly profitable. But then again... haven't you also argued that the moon landing was another falsification engineered by Hollywood film studios and the government?

Would you kindly tell us where and when Mozart ever studied music theory and composition ? I've been studying this subject of Mozart for many years. I've found nothing. Maybe you can tell us ?

To which school did Wolfgang Mozart go as a child for his ordinary education ? And under what recognised teacher of music did Mozart study harmony, orchestration and composition during his whole lifetime ?

Can you confirm none of the first two dozen or so 'Mozart' symphonies show any documentary evidence of actually being by him ?

Robert, can you kindly tell me where you studied music and musicology? Perhaps it was the Royal School of Music, London where you have stated you studied Music/Orchestration/Harmony/Instrumentation from 1970-1974... except that such a school never existed.:confused: Or perhaps such was a misprint and you meant the Royal College of Music (which has no record of an alumni by your name):nod:.

Or perhaps you can kindly tell me the names of a number of credible musicologist or music historians who have seriously embraced your theory. Certainly a theory as ground-breaking as your would be an assurance of near instant academic stardom for the musicologist who could prove it in academic circles. Or perhaps you wish for us to believe that the music field is the sole discipline in academia where alternative theories and continued investigative research are frowned upon... or the Jesuits and Illuminati are still pulling the strings behind the whole scene and hushing these academics up with threats against their wives and families... or promises of a lifetime supply of Viennese chocolate Elvises and videos of the moon landing.:rolleyes:

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I see you are desperate to sling mud. But let me make it really hard for you by staying on the subject of the life, career and reputation of W.A. Mozart (1756-91). Moon landings are out. So are other subjects. As a matter of fact I can point you to numerous musicologists who agree with me on Mozart. And have done for years. Let me mention just a few. I can produce others if you like. Right here on this forum.

Let's take for a start two well known Italian specialists on 18th century music. Professor Luca Bianchini. He has prepared hundreds of musical scores for performance in Europe and is a specialist in music of that time. Let me also present Professor Anna Trombetta, a teacher of music theory, a specialist in 18th century performance. Both of these are professional musicologists in Italy. If you wish to have direct contact with them, just let me know. I will give you contact details. Can't do better than that, can I ? I could name various others. But why bore you with reality ? Would you like a list of the numerous music library curators I am in touch with in France, Italy, England, Czech Republic, Germany and Austria, and a list of various writers and researchers I have contacted all across Europe and beyond ?

OK, but we are still waiting for the details of Mozart's schooling and for details of his supposed musical education. Shall we wait for your reply much longer ? So far you have given us precisely zero.

And it shows ! But nobody is fooling you, right ? Please provide some sources on Mozart's schooling. And on his musical education. Still waiting. If you would prefer a simpler question how about this. Can you tell us how many books you have read on the life and career of Mozart ? That would be a start.

Thank You

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

It's called skepticism, yanni: a basis for assessing the validity of claims.

You're free to believe whatever you want, of course. But don't resent the fact that some people aren't as credulous as you when it comes to theories about secret societies and vast historical plots.

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And don't resent the fact that some people examine the actual evidence and try to show you it's moonshine.

One side has nothing to offer. Guess which ?

The official story of Mozart is a fairy tale.

Robert,

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Originally Posted by Musicology

I have presented a good general outline.

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I call it a vague, incoherent set of claims.

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You will not find signed records of those who plan conspiracies. You will not find such things in the history of banknote forgery. Let us be fair and reasonable. These things are proved by inconsistencies, by documentary evidence of other kinds.

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And like I said, nothing is proved by inconsistencies.

You're the one making the claim that, as you said in the OP, "the musical career of Mozart was almost entirely manufactured, falsified, even from the time of his childhood onward by the fraternities of the Holy Roman Empire". It's odd that you keep saying you're waiting for others to produce evidence, when the burden of proof is by all rights on you.

It's not up to others to prove you wrong. It's up to you to support your claim with the kind of evidence we'd expect to see: signed documents attesting to the plot, correspondence that talks about the plot in detail, a confession from Mozart that he's a fraud and a patsy of the super-secret fraternities, etc. You can't use the very fact that this evidence doesn't exist to support your claim.

Regards,

Istvan

:wave:

Yea and nay
each hath his say
but God He keeps the middle way*
(*like Aristotle suggested)

The answer as to the identity of the manufacturers of "New Truth" (Mozart included) is to be found at http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=43550.

Cheers.

I've been following along, there's been some fun reading in this thread, thanks everyone. I am no expert at all on this subject, but I think that anyone who is could comment on this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=e8A...age&q=&f=false

Thanks Billl,

My comments on "Mozart: A Documentary Biography By Otto Erich Deutsch" as follows:

The online version is partially protected, particulary prohibiting access to data on my hero (as "Grimm" and less so as "Gluck").

IE If I still maintained the slightest doubt on my findings I would have to buy the book but this is not the case.

Of interest:

A. That "Gluck", shortly after his return to Europe from America (as Chastellux and La Luzerne) visits Vienna, enjoys a Mozart concert and invites the Mozarts to dinner, March 12th-16th, 1783, (p305), while Mme d'Epinay lies dying (+15th April 1783- IF she did!).*

B.The fact that a month after "Gluck" aranges his alleged death in Vienna November 15th, 1787, the Holy Roman Emperor disbands the German Opera (With Aloisia Weber joining the Italian Company and Mozart going "italian" too, at least in Vienna.)

(detailed 1787 timeline under preparation.)

Cheers!

*If "Gluck" had a twin brother (as many of his alias do, including Myslivecek) one cannot really tell who is who. The same for another "Gluck" presence in the book, p 205, on August 6th, 1782 (repetition in his favour of Mozart's Entfuhrung aus dem Serai) while Chastellux is still in America.

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Originally Posted by Musicology

One side has nothing to offer. Guess which ?

The official story of Mozart is a fairy tale.

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These are odd overstatements.

I assume the "one side" you mention is the musicological establishment, whose consensus opinion that Mozart did in fact compose the majority of works attributed to him is, in your opinion, a complete falsehood. The basis for your criticism of this consensus is that certain works originally attributed to Mozart have since been discovered to be the work of other composers.

This actually seems like disconfirming evidence of your theory that there's a vast historical conspiracy to attribute works to Mozart that weren't his. If all we know about Mozart is merely the invention of the shadowy cabal of musicologists in on the Conspiracy, why indeed would any work be removed from Mozart's catalogue as inauthentic? Aren't the custodians of this plot supposed to maintain at any cost the carefully-crafted illusion of Mozart's greatness?

And isn't this evidence that there's some objective measure to authenticating Mozart's work, which professional, educated musicologists could explain in detail? Why not run the Mozart-didn't-compose-anything hypothesis by a wide range of musicology specialists and let them assess the evidence?

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Robert,


I call it a vague, incoherent set of claims.

And like I said, nothing is proved by inconsistencies.

You're the one making the claim that, as you said in the OP, "the musical career of Mozart was almost entirely manufactured, falsified, even from the time of his childhood onward by the fraternities of the Holy Roman Empire". It's odd that you keep saying you're waiting for others to produce evidence, when the burden of proof is by all rights on you.

It's not up to others to prove you wrong. It's up to you to support your claim with the kind of evidence we'd expect to see: signed documents attesting to the plot, correspondence that talks about the plot in detail, a confession from Mozart that he's a fraud and a patsy of the super-secret fraternities, etc. You can't use the very fact that this evidence doesn't exist to support your claim.

Regards,

Istvan

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Istvan,

Proof should be simple. If the Mozart story is true let's see the evidence for it. Its been around for 200 years. We have mountains of books. Let me ask for something simple (as I already have done). Please provide details of Mozart's ordinary and musical education. Not difficult is it ? Now, either this evidence exists and can be presented, or it doesn't exist. Which ?

As far as other details are concerned, I have already asked you to name a piece by Mozart and let's compare notes to see if he really composed it or not. Let's take, for example, 'The Marriage of Figaro', or, perhaps, 'The Magic Flute'. As you please. Or another work.

Can't get fairer than that, can I ?

As for works being continually removed from the official Mozart catalogue, this is consistent with a fabrication. The spinner of lies must continually reinvent his story. And that is exactly what we see in the catalogue of 'Mozart's' music. Myths are continually being reinvented. That too is a plain, very plain, fact of history.

St Lukesguild will hopefully come to the rescue of Mozart. But no answer so far. What's new ?

As far as running the Mozart fraud past 'experts', who are they ? We have yet to have one named. Maybe you can find us one. So far, they are not talking. Because they know the evidence is massively against the story they are employed to defend. But sure, let's find one. Let's invite him here to discuss the actual, documentary evidence. The actual, historical evidence of the 'genius from Salzburg'. That would be great.

My experience is that such requests go round and round in circles. But maybe you can do it. Then readers can judge for themselves. That's only fair, after all.

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Please provide details of Mozart's ordinary and musical education. Not difficult is it ? Now, either this evidence exists and can be presented, or it doesn't exist. Which ?

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This point isn't relevant. Your hypothesis could be true regardless of Mozart's level of musical education, couldn't it? Why, then, demand evidence of Mozart's education from people wasting time on a message board, instead of presenting evidence that truly supports your theory?

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I have already asked you to name a piece by Mozart and let's compare notes to see if he really composed it or not. Let's take, for example, 'The Marriage of Figaro', or, perhaps, 'The Magic Flute'. As you please.

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Your hypothesis is that Mozart didn't compose 'The Magic Flute,' I assume. So who did? And how do you know?

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My experience is that such requests go round and round in circles. But maybe you can do it. Then readers can judge for themselves.

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That's probably because you're not assuming the burden of supporting your claims with evidence. I don't think I'm the only reader here who has noticed that.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

This point isn't relevant. Your hypothesis could be true regardless of Mozart's level of musical education, couldn't it? Why, then, demand evidence of Mozart's education from people wasting time on a message board, instead of presenting evidence that truly supports your theory?

Your hypothesis is that Mozart didn't compose 'The Magic Flute,' I assume. So who did? And how do you know?


That's probably because you're not assuming the burden of supporting your claims with evidence. I don't think I'm the only reader here who has noticed that.

Regards,

Istvan

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No,

The point IS relevant. I don't believe babies can fly 747's across the Atlantic from New York to London. I have seen no evidence of it. Nor do I believe children write symphonies, piano concertos or operas. But you believe the opposite. In the case of Mozart you believe he did so. And I am simply asking you to provide evidence of his musical and general education. Which you say is not relevant !

What sort of kangaroo court is that ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

This point isn't relevant. Your hypothesis could be true regardless of Mozart's level of musical education, couldn't it? Why, then, demand evidence of Mozart's education from people wasting time on a message board, instead of presenting evidence that truly supports your theory?

Your hypothesis is that Mozart didn't compose 'The Magic Flute,' I assume. So who did? And how do you know?


That's probably because you're not assuming the burden of supporting your claims with evidence. I don't think I'm the only reader here who has noticed that.

Regards,

Istvan

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Regarding The Magic Flute, the history of this opera is riddled with contradictions. First, the theme of the overture is not by Mozart. Second, it uses material already written a year earlier by Paul Wranitsky and numerous other composers. Have you heard the Wranitsky opera 'Oberon' ? No, of course you haven't. It was the most popular opera of the whole of Viennese musical history. It was even staged in the same theatre where the Magic Flute was premiered. I mean, how ignorant can people be ? That opera uses music used in the Magic Flute. And, as for theme in the overture, it comes from a piano sonata written years earlier by Clementi.

And there's more - the musical score was not completed by Mozart. It was sent to Bonn before the premiere, according to the surviving correspondence of the Bonn music publisher Simrock. These are facts you do not know. It was in Bonn this music was all cobbled together.

You are not the only reader to notice gaps between questions and answers !!!! You are providing nothing. Nothing at all. And time after time you are receiving hard facts.

So what happens ? What are you believing ? Nothing but a fairy story. Sorry, but it's fact.

Why not choose another opera by 'Mozart' ? Or a concerto, a symphony, or some other work ?

And how is this possible if, as you say, I am not answering you on this short thread. There must be something seriously wrong with the official story for me to be so sure. Right ?

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Regarding The Magic Flute, the history of this opera is riddled with contradictions. First, the theme of the overture is not by Mozart. Second, it uses material already written a year earlier by Paul Wranitsky and numerous other composers.

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Uh, was the music plagiarized by Mozart? It's known that Oberon was the inspiration for the Flute's libretto, but are you saying Wranitsky actually composed the Flute's music? What 'numerous other composers'? And what evidence supports your claim?

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You are not the only reader to notice gaps between questions and answers !!!! You are providing nothing. Nothing at all. And time after time you are receiving hard facts.

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But I'm not obliged to provide anything, Robert. You're the one making the claims, you're the one declining to provide support for the claims (or evading the issue like you do above), and then excoriating others for ignoring the supposed evidence.

Calm down and provide the evidence that supports your claim about 'The Magic Flute,' please.

Regards,

Istvan

But let me make it really hard for you by staying on the subject of the life, career and reputation of W.A. Mozart (1756-91). Moon landings are out. So are other subjects.

Why is that, Robert? Do you honestly expect people here to take your word for it that everything we've learned about Mozart and Haydn is one vast fairy tale... that the reality is some vast conspiracy involving secret societies and the efforts of hundreds of people... that we're all ignorant dupes... without considering any of the issues that might call your credibility into question... such as fraudulent claims about your academic credentials, and your belief in other conspiracy theories such as that on the moon landings and 911? It would seem to me that if anyone is to make what amounts to some rather incredible assertions that go against accepted academic "facts" then his or her credibility is certainly going to be called into question.

As a matter of fact I can point you to numerous musicologists who agree with me on Mozart. And have done for years. Let me mention just a few. I can produce others if you like. Right here on this forum.

Please do. Undoubtedly there are a few who have fallen for your spiel. Of course we have yet to see a single real publication... not even in the academic presses of a major university... that even vaguely supports your theories. If your theory had any real academic support it would show up in web searches and in libraries. I can find endless articles related to the Shakespeare attribution questions... but Mozart? Nada. Of course that only proves your point, right? A sort of catch-22. The fact that there is no serious academic support for your theory is not due to the fact that the theory is nonsense, but rather due to the fact that the Mozart industry and the Freemasons, and the Jesuits, and the Illuminati are suppressing the facts in order to maintain control of the lucrative market of Mozart CDs. Obviously, they must be behind the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Elvis, Michael Jackson, and Madonna as well for we all know that these later artists couldn't possibly have written the music attributed to them without formal music education... and it sells far more than any Mozart CD ever does so that market needs to be controlled as well. The Illuminati was probably behind Michael Jackson's death. He'd become a lose canon with all those child molestation charges circulating. Who knows... he might just come out and spill the beans on the whole conspiracy.:rolleyes:

OK, but we are still waiting for the details of Mozart's schooling and for details of his supposed musical education. Shall we wait for your reply much longer ? So far you have given us precisely zero.

Robert, again you miss the point. It is you who have made the outlandish statement that challenges accepted history. It is up to you to prove your statement... and this will not be achieved by bombarding a group of book lovers... most with little or no knowledge (or even interest) in Mozart... with a bunch of obscure "factoids" that you expect us to verify. To what purpose? I will also note that I have already posted what we know of Mozart's education which is neither more nor less impressive than what we know of a vast number of artists, writers, and composers from the whole of history.

And it shows ! But nobody is fooling you, right ? Please provide some sources on Mozart's schooling. And on his musical education. Still waiting. If you would prefer a simpler question how about this. Can you tell us how many books you have read on the life and career of Mozart ? That would be a start.

Again Robert, you completely miss the point. My credibility is not at question. I am not challenging the history of Mozart as presented by the historians who most certainly studied his work and correspondences. I am not attempting to convince everyone that everything they have been taught is a fairy tale and they are but ignorant dupes. I am not trying to convince a group of book lovers that somehow the whole of academia in the field of Mozart studies (which one would assume is not far behind the studies of a literary figure such as Dante, Chaucer, Milton, or Shakespeare) are also ignorant of the facts or complicit in some vast on-going conspiracy. What does bother you, however, is the fact that even someone without the credentials and experience in Mozart studies can blow gaping holes in your theory. Imagine what a real musicologist must be able to do... especially a Mozart specialist. Must be quite frustrating.:brow:

The beast still lives, feeding on its own flesh while the truth has quietly slipped on to the second page.