What was before God? (or, Why did He wait so long?)

"But logic is too sharp a tool to apply on something that is based on faith alone."

Xamonas, you could have a go at the game I used to play when I was bored at work. There were trees on the other side of the car park, and the game was simply to describe a leaf that I could see so that, out of all the leaves on the tree, a person next to me could recognise the leaf I was describing. Mere location, like "third leaf on the third branch up on the third tree from the left" was not permitted.
Of course, there were a few leaves that could be described, but, although I could see thousands of leaves, and knew that each leaf was unique, the task of describing more than half a dozen quickly became impossible. Logic can take no part in this task, and language fails almost from the outset.

If logic and language cannot even enable us to describe something so common and physical as a leaf, why do you think that either can be used to describe things beyond the universe? They are just two very crude and inadequate tools.

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Let us agree to differ on God's existence, free will and prior knowledge. None of these can be proven logically. I do not claim to have disproven God's existence; all I claim is that I have shown that there are logical inconsistencies in the idea of God that you present. That you refute that is up to you, of course. You can deny anything you like; just as you can believe anything you like.

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I agree that we differ on God's existence, free will and prior knowledge. We simply look at them and understand them in different ways. I have never had a problem believing that God's knowledge has no effect on our free will, and was actually quite surprised to see that others didn't see it that way.

When you say God chose this universe, I stated that I only agree as far as the fact that He chose the natural laws of this universe, death, Judgment Day, and that our free will operates within those limits. However, I do not agree that He chose what we will do within those limits. If there wasn't enough room for us to make the right choice, and if every human being was an atheist, then I would say, God didn't give us a fair chance to believe in him. But, this is simply not true. I believe that His mercy is far above what we deserve, and that He set the laws of the universe so that we all have a fair chance of being believers. I do not believe that His knowledge had anything to do with predestination, as those are two very seperate concepts. If you woud try to make an argument saying that God doesn't know the future, then it would simply be not acceptable since we think of him as the All-Knowing. How would you reconcile God's ignorance of future and his All-Knowing nature? You couldn't. He has to be the One who knows everything, from our thoughts, act, hidden feelings, to the laws of the universe. However, knowing something and influening it are not one and the same. As I asked before, why is it not possible to assume that God knew what will happen, but instead of intervening, He let it play out as it has?

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In the above group of statements:
(a) You ask what I mean by him choosing a particular universe and then agree that he DID choose a particular universe.
(b) You agree that he set certain limits on us yet deny that this affects our free will.
This is a shaky foundation for your subsequent arguments

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I agreed only to the extent that He chose the limits of this universe, the natural laws, death, Judgment day, but that He doesn't effect every single thing we do within those limits. As far as I can tell, you are not simply stating that, but you go further to say that He predestined EVERYTHING we do, think, feel. That is not what I agreed with. I think that we are affected in the sense that we cannot go outside of the limits God set for us, but we can do whatever we like within those limits. Since I also do not believe that these limits are unfair to any single group, I do not see why we should even bother with them. Why do you believe that by setting limits God influences our free will in every day life? Don't you think if that was true, then all of us would act the same way, because we were somehow trapped by God? HOw can that be reconciled with the fact that some people believe and others don't?

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You still haven't put forward any argument to explain the difference that you see between

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(a) choosing to create a particular universe where he knows in advance the minutest detail of all of our actions
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(b) creating a universe where all of our actions are fixed in advance

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There is a big difference between choosing certain natural laws and setting limits in an environment, and influencing our free will that operates within those limits. As I stated before, we are limited as to what we can do within those limits (we can't live forever, we can't change our nature etc.) , and our free will operates within those limitis. However, there is a difference between letting the free will operate within those limits, and affecting the free will in other ways. Which one do you support?
In b) you state something that I don't agree with, because our actions are not fixed because He influenced them, they are only fixed in the sense that He knows what will happen.

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Are you denying that he could have chosen a different one? And if you are, why not? Because he is not all-powerful enough? or because he himself has no free will in the matter?

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I am not denying that He could have done anything. He is All-Powerful. However, I would like you to tell me whether you believe that the limits He set for us are unfair, whether or not you think that setting the limits and influencing our free will is one and the same, and whether or not you think that by setting the limits He influenced our free will as well, not simply because we are limited by the laws of nature, but in a more specific way. (i.e He predestined that you will be an atheist and that I will believe in Him)

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Why would choosing a different universe than this one imply influence, yet choosing this one does not? What is the difference between this universe and any other, except for the simple fact that this is the one that God chose to create?

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Again, the question is what you mean by "he chose this universe". Do you simply agree with me that He chose the laws of this universe, death, Judgment Day, or that He chose everything else as well, such as what we will do every single day, what we will say, what we will believe in, etc?

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Think about what you wrote here. It is your assertion that God created the universe, yet now you ask me to assume that he 'let it happen in it's natural procession'. Did he create it or not? Did he create the universe but not the laws of the universe perhaps

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Here you confuse things again. Choosing the universe to me means that He chose certain laws of nature within we operate. It means that our free will is LIMITED by those laws of nature. It doesn't mean that we don't have ANY free will, but simply that it operates under certain conditions. Is your argument based on this, or do you go further to say that BECAUSE our free will is conditioned, we don't have it at all? That would not be true, because if there was no free will, and if we all had the same conditions and limitations, wouldn't we ALL choose the same things? Wouldn't the fact that we all choose the same things imply that we simply didn't have any other choice, or any other path? But it is not like that. WE have the same conditions and same limitations, but you see people operate in different ways. Isn't that proof of free will in itself?

Sorry Amra, but it is you that is confusing things. I have made my position abundantly plain. Reread my earlier posts; they contain everything I have to say on the matter.

And I will not be drawn into arguments about how 'fair' things are. The world isn't fair and that is nothing to do with God as far as I am convinced. I do not believe in God, so logically nothing is anything to do with God. My belief is that all religion is a human construct and that there are no such things as gods or prophets.

Free will exists. We are free to do whatever we wish; however perverse, ridiculous, illogical and bizarrre. The only constraints upon us are those imposed by the nature of the universe; we cannot transform anthills into mountains of gold, walk through walls, turn invisible, etc. These rules are a necessary part of the way the universe is; not part of the grand design of some all-powerful being.

As I already said, have faith if you will, that is your prerogative. But please stop mixing logic and rhetoric as if that justifies your position.

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Free will exists. We are free to do whatever we wish; however perverse, ridiculous, illogical and bizarrre. The only constraints upon us are those imposed by the nature of the universe; we cannot transform anthills into mountains of gold, walk through walls, turn invisible, etc. These rules are a necessary part of the way the universe is;

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I agree...

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not part of the grand design of some all-powerful being.

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I don't agree. The rules of nature are only necessary IF there is a God who has a greater plan for all this. If there was no grand design, then the rules don't make sense. For example, why should it be more necessary to die than not to die? Why have rules if there is no puropose to them? They just happen to exist?

The rules of the universe are a necessary result of the only way that the universe can exist. It is based on precise physical and mathematical relationships (albeit ones which are not yet fully understood). The universe could no more function in a different manner, than 2 + 2 could equal 5. This is how I see it.

You may well believe that God could make 2 + 2 = 5 if he wished. I think this is beyond even him.

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Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe

The rules of the universe are a necessary result of the only way that the universe can exist. It is based on precise physical and mathematical relationships (albeit ones which are not yet fully understood). The universe could no more function in a different manner, than 2 + 2 could equal 5. This is how I see it.

You may well believe that God could make 2 + 2 = 5 if he wished. I think this is beyond even him.

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See, here's my thing with God...

God could make the Universe such that 2+2=4, AND 2+2=5. 'Cause S/He's God, man... since when is S/He bounded by logic or feeble human knowledge of any sort?

So, God could make the Universe such that both were true, or neither, or one at one time and another at a different time. S/He could make the Universe such that some believed that 2+2=4 and some, that 2+2=5; S/He could make it such that people switched beliefs all the time.

Heck, maybe he's made the Universe in all of these ways, or none of them, we just don't know it. And that's the thing-- we can't know it, because in some ways, God's not knowable. Any attempt to say one knows God is limiting His/Her magnificence, and that just doesn't ring right to me.

That's what's so cool, and so frustrating, about God!

So, given that we can't know God, I'm all for sticking to what we do know, or at least what seems to work-- i.e., math and science.

Yup. That's my two cents. For now.

hi all, :wave:
this thread is the reason i registered. last night i read all of the posts in this thread. And allow me to say, Unnamable and Amra, u both have incredible energies. :thumbs_up
I read many interesting opinions at the beginning. However, i think we've diverted just a tiny bit from our original subject "what was before God?"
Free will or predestination is an idea representing part of the core beliefs in chirstianity, Islam, judaism AND atheism. It is a fundamental AND controversial concept that some believers do not agree to entirely. :argue:

concerning our main topic "what was before God?" I would like to raise a question: What was before Us??? Believers agree that God has always existed and will always exist. He was around since the creatin of man and is around now and will be until the judgement day.

But what happened before that? before man was created? and what will happen after people are judged?
:brickwall
can anyone help on that?

"Men esteem truth remote, in the outskirts of the system, behind the farthest star, before Adam and after the last man. In eternity there is indeed something true and sublime. But all these times and places and occasions are now and here. God himself culminates in the present moment, and will never be more divine in the lapse of all the ages." Thoreau.

I've just read that, and it may even be relevant, but I've just discovered Thoreau, thanks to Chmpman, and I've got to share him.

.

[QUOTE=The Unnamable]Because he doesn’t exist.

He doesn't exist? Then it contradicts your view that, you only chooses what God has already known what you will do?meaning you have the freewill....He won't be a God after all if His existence is known among his creation He has no creator coz He is the creator...

[QUOTE=tiny explorer]

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

Because he doesn’t exist.

He doesn't exist? Then it contradicts your view that, you only chooses what God has already known what you will do?meaning you have the freewill....He won't be a God after all if His existence is known among his creation He has no creator coz He is the creator...

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:confused: :confused: :confused:

Sorry. You lost me there. Some grammar might help. Nice use of smilies though. :nod:

You may well believe that God could make 2 + 2 = 5 if he wished. I think this is beyond even him.[/QUOTE]


If I may make a comment here...absolutely NOTHING is beyond God's abilities. It is quite disturbing to me that you believe God incapable of such a simple feat. He raised people from the dead and walked on water. Why would this be a challenge to Him? ;)

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Originally Posted by mcrane

hi all, :wave:
this thread is the reason i registered. last night i read all of the posts in this thread. And allow me to say, Unnamable and Amra, u both have incredible energies. :thumbs_up
I read many interesting opinions at the beginning. However, i think we've diverted just a tiny bit from our original subject "what was before God?"
Free will or predestination is an idea representing part of the core beliefs in chirstianity, Islam, judaism AND atheism. It is a fundamental AND controversial concept that some believers do not agree to entirely. :argue:

concerning our main topic "what was before God?" I would like to raise a question: What was before Us??? Believers agree that God has always existed and will always exist. He was around since the creatin of man and is around now and will be until the judgement day.

But what happened before that? before man was created? and what will happen after people are judged?
:brickwall
can anyone help on that?

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The Bible speaks of three kinds of knowledge that God has given us: the first being His Word (the Bible) in print for deliberate education. The second is in our hearts, how He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, and the general consensus on this is that it is equivalent to our conscience. The third is through evidence of the creation, this world, the animals, our bodies, food and water, everything tangible by which God's love and existence was proven.

But then there's a passage in the Bible that speaks of our limited capacity to fully understand God, and it even goes on to say that if we saw God in His full glory, we could not live to tell of it, as He is just too much for us. In this same context, we cannot know the full extent of His knowledge. And with regards to "What came before us" I am likewise very curious. But I feel as though it's one of those questions I'll have to ask Him when I get there. In the meantime, it just takes a small amount of faith, thus the cornerstone of Christianity. In all those shady areas like that, I just give it over to God and I just accept that I won't know until He reveals it. And I may theorize and debate and rationalize, but when it comes down to it, I just have faith that it will be made known to me. And I am content.

I don't have to have all the answers in order to be secure. Not saying you all do, but stuff like that doesn't cost me any sleep. However, it does make for good discussions. :nod:

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Originally Posted by sdr4jc

If I may make a comment here...absolutely NOTHING is beyond God's abilities. It is quite disturbing to me that you believe God incapable of such a simple feat. He raised people from the dead and walked on water. Why would this be a challenge to Him? ;)

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You believe that - I don't think he did either of those - I don't think there is a 'he' in the first place.

Well if God is a figment of man's imagination and wants, He can do ANYTHING. Or nothing. Whichever suits the worshiper.

My use of the equation 2 + 2 = 5 was chosen precisely because it is a direct, logical result of Euclid's postulates. This being untrue, would imply that logic itself was invalid.

Since Amra was attempting to use logic to argue that we could have free-will in a world where God knew the results of every action in advance, I threw this into the mix.

If logic can be over-ruled by God, then it is pointless to use logic to argue any facts about God (whether one believes in the big fellah, or not). This was the crux of my argument - it all comes down to faith; to what you believe.

Belief in God is illogical - you can only believe by abandonning logical thought and accepting that belief without question and without logical examination - something I am psychologically and intellectually unable to do. As I have said repeatedly, I have no beef with belief, just with attempts to justify it through faulty logic.