Evolution vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

However, the fact that the ratio of the radius of a circle to its circumference is dificult to comprehend when expressed mathematically should not imply to anyone that a divine intelligence went through every possible size of circle with a ruler and a calculator to make sure that every circumference divided by diameter makes π every single time, that just happens to be the way geometry works.

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Thank goodness for you rationality Cuppa. I agree completely. And, to infer that a Christian (or any other human construct) god exists because Pi exists is just plain silly in my opinion.

The universe is a wonderful thing. By my [human] logic, there should be nothing--an empty void. Yet here we are, reading, laughing, and loving! To me that indicates that something really amzing is going on. But to take it any further than that is folly. To assume that I'm going to burn in the firey pits of hell because I'm unable to accept that the creator of the universe would send someone to this little planet to get nailed to a cross because things weren't working out as it planned is just plain egotistical. The idea that humanity is central in some sort of grand cosmic plan is just the product of ignorance, ego, hope and a fear of death.

That being said, damn I'm glad I'm alive! What an gloriously beautiful thing we have here! Rejoice!

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Thank goodness for you rationality Cuppa. I agree completely. And, to infer that a Christian (or any other human construct) god exists because Pi exists is just plain silly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Silv

The idea is that we have devised all this knowledge for our convenience. 1+1 = 2 is for our convenience, not because we know why or how this came to be, or the reason this math equation holds in our universe. They are not perfect in their descriptions of the laws of nature, which were not created by us.

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The above quotation of what I said earlier can be applied to what you're saying about Pi, or anything similar. Pi is a number humans found that happens to aid in calculations - a ratio or number that's there for us to work with.

I don't think it's a silly inference to believe that something other than humans was at work in the formation of nature and the universe. It could be Evolution, or it could be Intelligent Design. My point is that it could be anything, and we don't have to restrict ourselves to either Evolution or Creationism.

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Originally Posted by Silv

I don't think it's a silly inference to believe that something other than humans was at work in the formation of nature and the universe.

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No, I don't either Silv. I think assigning specific attributes or properties to this 'something' based on our hopes and fears is silly. Anything is possible, nothing is certain.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

No, I don't either Silv. I think assigning specific attributes or properties to this 'something' based on our hopes and fears is silly. Anything is possible, nothing is certain.

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Hm...well, we have to acknowledge that it [life, the world, the universe] exists*, don't we? o.o
If we acknowledge that somehow the universe got here, then it follows that we're acknowledging that something happened, whether it was evolution, creationism, or anything else.

Basing something on our hopes and fears is silly, but in this case we're basing it on what we know: we didn't create the Universe. If we didn't, something, someone, or some process must have. I think that's where we agree, in that it could be anything - anything is possible. :D

*This is assuming none of us here are discussing other things like subjectivism, which would be an argument from ignorance (there's a word for this but I can't remember it at the moment. If anyone does please post it, it's bugging me. XD)

//Edit: Eek. Wrong post. XD *deletes stuff here and goes to "Taming of the Shrew" thread*

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

Yeah creationism is primarily my belief, but I believe that perhaps evolution was a tool....

so in brief: God did it!

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YES, darn it, HE DID!!! HE created everything.

I have posted a link to an nteresting article surrounding this topic... There are a myriad of convictions surrounding these philosophies and some actually embrace the reality of both. Given your interest in the subject matter, I thought you would find this article

While I am a creationist, I also believe in evolution to a point. I do not believe man evolved from apes though.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/fte/darwinism/chapter5.html

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Originally Posted by WriterAtTheSea

I do not believe man evolved from apes though.

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It's what scientists and their relatives say to keep on earning. :sick:

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Originally Posted by Laindessiel

It's what scientists and their relatives say to keep on earning. :sick:

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So what do the preachers say so that they can keep on earning?

Do you have any idea how much the average research scientist at a university makes?? It ain't making them rich, I can tell you that. Also, by making such an uneducated statement you are condeming all scientists as liars. Why? Real evidence bothers you?

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Originally Posted by Laindessiel

YES, darn it, HE DID!!! HE created everything.

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Really? Did he (it) create himself?

No. That was supposed to be humorous! And I'm definitely not generalizing all the scientists in different fields, Winter. All I'm saying is that WE don't come from animals, which is what they are saying! It's completely ludicrously ridiculous. We came from the ashes; made by God. (Read the book of Genesis, man.)

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Really? Did he (it) create himself?

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He is already a "someone" before anything. Nobody can answer where He came from.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

I think assigning specific attributes or properties to this 'something' based on our hopes and fears is silly.

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Only if you're right - but what if you're wrong?

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Anything is possible, nothing is certain.

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Exactly - hence the existence of God becomes possible, and science - perhaps - uncertain.

Silv's point still stands: why should anything be "like it is"? To just say (as cuppa did) that "that just happens to be the way geometry works" creates a problem with the words "that just happens." What is "just happens" - magic? Life "just happens"? The Golden Ration "just happens" to show up everywhere in nature? Ideas about "right" and "wrong" "just happen" to have "evolved" from human experience? The conditions on this planet that make it conducive to life "just happened"? Chemical reactions in my brain "just happen" to create the feeling of joy, sadness, heartache? The answer that much of reality "just happened" to me is equal to any charge against the vague, un-empirically proven ideas of God that atheists level at Christians.

And, finally, Wintermute, what makes it OK for you to dismiss something many people find very profound as "silly"? Is an attempt to trivialize your opponent's argument supposed to be a solid response to the issue - or simply an attempt to devalue your opponent's position and put them on the defensive?

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Originally Posted by WriterAtTheSea

I do not believe man evolved from apes though.

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Who does believe this? Certainly not evolutionists . . . or have I completely misdigested the entire theory? I thought we were supposed to share a common ancestor (?).

By the way, that Leadership U is a great website. They hold WLC's material. ;)

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Originally Posted by Laindessiel

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

Yeah creationism is primarily my belief, but I believe that perhaps evolution was a tool....

so in brief: God did it!

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YES, darn it, HE DID!!! HE created everything.

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Please try to make your points with your arguments, not with the size/color of your fonts.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Only if you're right - but what if you're wrong?

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Then we're wrong. What if you're wrong about Thor, Amon Ra, Huitzilopochtli, Posideon and the Great Green Arkleseizure?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

To just say (as cuppa did) that "that just happens to be the way geometry works" creates a problem with the words "that just happens."

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What problem? All circles are much the same. They have a common ratio between the circumference and the radius. The word (or rather letter) for that ratio is pi. Pi, expressed mathematically, happens to be an irrational number. I'm not sure which part of this implies the existence of deities.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

The Golden Ration "just happens" to show up everywhere in nature?

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No, as I've explained, phi shows up a lot of places in nature (hardly 'everywhere', but in a lot of places) because it is an efficient to build certain structures in that ratio. If you are a gene which builds more efficient structures, you are more likely to propogate yourself. Give it a few hundred thousand generations, and the best genes win out by building more efficient snail shells. 'More efficient', in this context, means 'closer to phi'. It's not a coincidence by any means. Note that I am not a mathematician, so all of the above should be taken with a grain of salt, but I would be willing to bet that the correct explaination is very close to what I just said.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Ideas about "right" and "wrong" "just happen" to have "evolved" from human experience? The conditions on this planet that make it conducive to life "just happened"? Chemical reactions in my brain "just happen" to create the feeling of joy, sadness, heartache?

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Steven Pinker could explain to you in mind-numbing detail how those things happened. I will not attempt to here, but it is not, by any means, a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by ShoutGrace

Who does believe this? Certainly not evolutionists . . . or have I completely misdigested the entire theory? I thought we were supposed to share a common ancestor (?).

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If you saw that common ancestor walking around on the street you would say "Hey look, there's an ape walking around on the street".