D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Janine

Thanks ok, Dark Muse,For now, I will just post this part for everyone to think about. I bolded up the significant words. I think this really shows the turmoil that Maurice is going through in-between his times of bliss and passion with his wife.

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I like your quote Janine. It's very descriptive of that possessive urge the male characters get in many of the stories we've read.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.

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There have been so many posts, so I don't know whether we've really talked this out yet, but what do you suppose all the darkness and barn scenes do? I think you put it well when you say that it makes Isabel think rather see the things around her; but, what does it mean to think something rather than see something? And, why does it frighten the characters--excluding Maurice--so much?

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Originally Posted by Quark

There have been so many posts, so I don't know whether we've really talked this out yet, but what do you suppose all the darkness and barn scenes do? I think you put it well when you say that it makes Isabel think rather see the things around her; but, what does it mean to think something rather than see something? And, why does it frighten the characters--excluding Maurice--so much?

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One of the things that is significant about the barn secen and the darkness is the fact that in a way Isabel is stepping into Maurice's world. She can take on some of his blindness to herself, though she can also leave that world to re-enter the world of sight whenever she wants to, unlike her husband. Maurice does not feel so frightend by it, becasue he feels at home in the darkness, but Isabel must leave the world of sight to enter into the dark and when she is in the darkness she feels as if things do not really exisit for her, as there are several mentions of invisiblity and the idea of being invisible within the story.

P.S. I do not have much time right now Janine, but I will take time with your post in reponse to mine, when I am able to do so.

Quark, I will be back later to answer yours and to Dark Muse, I posted something almost exactly to that effect awhile back - about Isabel entering into the blind world of the barn and Maurice's domain and world and his perception. However, it is fine to repeat that and emphasis this point. I will think further on the whole idea of 'invisibility' and the feeling of not 'seeing' an object, but 'feeling' it. I will post something later - it is nearly dinnertime now.

Take your time DM, I am in no rush. I am quite busy with all the various discussion threads at this time. I can wait in here.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dark Muse, That is a good analogy and observation. Even if Maurice was not blinded, there probably would be a period of 'cooling down' between this couple. Pychologists call the blissful period of a new marriage - maybe the first year or so - the 'honeymoon' stage. From there we do have to shift to a more normal or down-to-earth stage. We can't live forever in the throws of passion with our heads floating in the clouds. I think the difference here though is that unlike early married couples when Maurice returned they experienced something very deep between them due to the blindness and it was quite astonishing for both - a deeper passion and a keener sensitivity for Maurice. They say that the blind do feel in other ways - other senses and keener. This may sound silly but I had a cat that was stone deaf and I could swear she experienced things (a sort of sixth sense) that my other cats never did. It was as though she sensed more. I think this is true also of the blind. I have seen films and read books on this fact. I think that it is harder for Maurice, he being alone in his blindness now and he can successfully connect with his wife on that level but not all of the time. This causes him some anxiety and frustration which seems to me to be perfectly understandable.

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Yes I think thier feelings and reactions to each other are natural and understandable for thier situation, and perhaps after thier blissful period, they just need time to balance out, as they are almost moving from one extreme to another in thier relationship, in thier dealing with the situation, and perhaps they just need time to sort of mellow out with each other to completely adapt to the situation they are in.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am glad you posted that part because I also found that passage so interesting and revealing. Yes, in this way Isabel is acting out like Maurice - like a blind person would act out or experience something - thinking it and not actually 'seeing it'. Again, when Isabel goes through the darkness in the barn she is confronted with the state her husband must live in permanently and it frightens her. Perhaps the awareness of it and the fact that she cannot share totally in his blind state without anxiety is where the actual fear lies.

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That is a good point, that she is made anxious by the fact that she knows she can never completely understand what her husband is going through, and though she has her moments where she can experince things the way he does, becasue in the back of her mind she alwyas knows she can come back from it, so she will never have the full effect of her husbands emotions.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I thought the mention of the title of Madonna was quite important, as well. True to some extent there is a sense of martyrism about Isabel or a sense of her giving up something, actually a great deal to please her husband and try to keep him happy. I also think she feels a frustration, that after sacrificing so much on her part he still is not always happy and neither is she. I feel that the isolation that the couple has adopted as the cure all for their situation is truly not working. I think both, and especially Isabel ideally need other people connections and other friends. When two people emerse themselves in their own separate world they put a lot of stress upon each other to create or maintain the partner's sense of happiness. In a way, I do not think this fair or reasonable.

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Yes I can understand how she would feel frustation after everything she has done, and it still has not cured his bouts of depression, and intstead of trying to truly deal with the problem, she has just led them in isolation as a way to try and just ignore what is going on.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

One of the things that is significant about the barn secen and the darkness is the fact that in a way Isabel is stepping into Maurice's world. She can take on some of his blindness to herself, though she can also leave that world to re-enter the world of sight whenever she wants to, unlike her husband. Maurice does not feel so frightend by it, becasue he feels at home in the darkness, but Isabel must leave the world of sight to enter into the dark and when she is in the darkness she feels as if things do not really exisit for her, as there are several mentions of invisiblity and the idea of being invisible within the story.

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It does make them see, or not see, through Maurice's eyes. It's not really a personal thing, though. It doesn't seem to make them understand Maurice any better. It just gives them the same kind of experience that Maurice has when he's upstairs and has that episode that Janine quoted from earlier. I'm struggling to find good terms to describe it, but I guess you could call it a heightened sensual and instinctual state with some weird empathic quality also. This is probably what freaks Bertie out so much. He's the distant, intellectual type and this experience is something profoundly alien to him. I'll have to go back and look more closely at Isabel's reaction. I don't remember precisely what she does. You think she feels invisible? Hmm, I will have to go back and read.

Janine, did you post something along these lines too? I'll go back and check.

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Originally Posted by Quark

It does make them see, or not see, through Maurice's eyes. It's not really a personal thing, though. It doesn't seem to make them understand Maurice any better. It just gives them the same kind of experience that Maurice has when he's upstairs and has that episode that Janine quoted from earlier. I'm struggling to find good terms to describe it, but I guess you could call it a heightened sensual and instinctual state with some weird empathic quality also. This is probably what freaks Bertie out so much. He's the distant, intellectual type and this experience is something profoundly alien to him. I'll have to go back and look more closely at Isabel's reaction. I don't remember precisely what she does. You think she feels invisible? Hmm, I will have to go back and read.

Janine, did you post something along these lines too? I'll go back and check.

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Yes, I posted on both scenes, quite extensively, a page or so back. If you can read my former posts, I pretty well explored the experiences of each, when they were alone and isolated - both Isabel in the darkness of the barn and then Maurice in the upstairs rooms in darkness and his own domain of sightlessness. I felt the scene with Maurice alone on the second floor emphasised Lawrence's 'blood consciousness' ideas.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I posted on both scenes, quite extensively, a page or so back. If you can read my former posts, I pretty well explored the experiences of each, when they were alone and isolated - both Isabel in the darkness of the barn and then Maurice in the upstairs rooms in darkness and his own domain of sightlessness. I felt the scene with Maurice alone on the second floor emphasised Lawrence's 'blood consciousness' ideas.

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Oh, sorry to go back. I just didn't get a chance to comment on it, and it could be considered the most important part of the story.

After going back, I see your posts, and I agree with most of them. I agree that the barn scenes expose other characters to his blindness, and that upstairs he has an instance of "blood consciousness". But, really, aren't these ideas very similar in the story--blindness and "blood consciousness". One seems to cause the other. In the dark barn Lawrence uses language commonly associated with this idea. There's the earthiness of it when Maurice is described as having "strong contact of his feet with the earth." There's the animal-like quality when Isabel thinks of the "animal grossness" of it. And, of course, there's blood: the veins stood out in the wrists...he stood up his face and neck were surcharged with blood, the veins stood out on his temples." The barn scenes seem like just as much an instance of "blood consciousness" as the episode with Maurice at the top of the stares. The only difference is that it's Isabel and Bertie experiencing it instead of Maurice.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Oh, sorry to go back. I just didn't get a chance to comment on it, and it could be considered the most important part of the story.

After going back, I see your posts, and I agree with most of them. I agree that the barn scenes expose other characters to his blindness, and that upstairs he has an instance of "blood consciousness". But, really, aren't these ideas very similar in the story--blindness and "blood consciousness". One seems to cause the other. In the dark barn Lawrence uses language commonly associated with this idea. There's the earthiness of it when Maurice is described as having "strong contact of his feet with the earth." There's the animal-like quality when Isabel thinks of the "animal grossness" of it. And, of course, there's blood: the veins stood out in the wrists...he stood up his face and neck were surcharged with blood, the veins stood out on his temples." The barn scenes seem like just as much an instance of "blood consciousness" as the episode with Maurice at the top of the stares. The only difference is that it's Isabel and Bertie experiencing it instead of Maurice.

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OK, good, Quark, then you read my posts on the idea of blood consciousness, which as you now know is a large part of Lawrence's belief system concerning relationships. Ok, now I like the things you pointed out in the barn to add to that. Yes, without using specific mention of blood consciousness Lawrence is non the less showing the presense of his idea int those images. I think also that the thing that Isabel and Maurice have happen between them encompasses blood consciousness. This is the thing she cannot describe in words to her friend or anyone else, perhaps even herself. It is something special and unique that the husband and wife experience together when alone and lost in the world of his sightlessness. He speaks of this as a passion, but it is even beyond this word.
Then later Maurice refers to something that replaces his ability at sight; one moment he tries to explain this to Bertie when he says:

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There is something,' he replied. 'I couldn't tell you what it is.

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I just noticed when I went back over the beginning of the story the very first line states:

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Isabel Pervin was listening for two sounds--for the sound of wheels on the drive outside and for the noise of her husband's footsteps in the hall.

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There immediately in this story is the emphasis on not seeing something but rather percieving it by sound/noise. Interesting, isn't it?

I also noticed in this beginning part of the story, second and third paragraph that there is more emphasis on Maurice's feelings and experience than there is on Isabel's, furture separating the couple in a sublte way:

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He had been home for a year now. He was totally blind. Yet they had been very happy. The Grange was Maurice's own place. The back was a farmstead, and the Wernhams, who occupied the rear premises, acted as farmers. Isabel lived with her husband in the handsome rooms in front. She and he had been almost entirely alone together since he was wounded. They talked and sang and read together in a wonderful and unspeakable intimacy. Then she reviewed books for a Scottish newspaper, carrying on her old interest, and he occupied himself a good deal with the farm. Sightless, he could still discuss everything with Wernham, and he could also do a good deal of work about the place--menial work, it is true, but it gave him satisfaction. He milked the cows, carried in the pails, turned the separator, attended to the pigs and horses. Life was still very full and strangely serene for the blind man, peaceful with the almost incomprehensible peace of immediate contact in darkness. With his wife he had a whole world, rich and real and invisible.

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It seems to me the Lawrence shows us immediately that the happiness is more for Maurice than for Isabel in this sightless situation and yet there are a few lines that indicate how they relate to each other such as 'They talked and sang and read together in a wonderful and unspeakable intimacy'. But after this statement they both branch out daily into their own separate worlds - she writing and he working about the farm. Then the statement 'Life was still very full and strangely serene for the blind man, peaceful with the almost incomprehensible peace of immediate contact in darkness. With his wife he had a whole world, rich and real and invisible.' seems to me to be more from Maurice's point of view.

The next statement goes on to indicate the current state of the couple together:

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They were newly and remotely happy. He did not even regret the loss of his sight in these times of dark, palpable joy. A certain exultance swelled his soul.

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As Dark Muse said, the couple, being not long married, may be expected to feel this blissful happiness for a time, and then would shift into a more normal range of emotions. This would be a natural progression.
I think this part of the statement 'they were newly and remotely happy' is a complex and questionable statement. I think they have discovered more 'intimately' things about themselves and the 'blood consciousness' has been stronger in their relationship, and yet at times the blindness has caused a 'remoteness' in their marriage. The last statement again shifts back to the fact that 'his soul' swelled; it does not state that Isabel's soul shared this feeling.
I don't one minute doubt the love Isabel has for Maurice, but I do feel the experience is a more intense one for Maurice, than it is for Isabel; this is because she cannot truly enter into his realm of sightlessness and total 'blood consciousness'.

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Originally Posted by Janine

There immediately in this story is the emphasis on not seeing something but rather percieving it by sound/noise. Interesting, isn't it?

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Yes this is an interesting way for the story to start, it seems to set up the story rather nicely.

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Originally Posted by Janine

It seems to me the Lawrence shows us immediately that the happiness is more for Maurice than for Isabel in this sightless situation and yet there are a few lines that indicate how they relate to each other such as 'They talked and sang and read together in a wonderful and unspeakable intimacy'. But after this statement they both branch out daily into their own separate worlds - she writing and he working about the farm. Then the statement 'Life was still very full and strangely serene for the blind man, peaceful with the almost incomprehensible peace of immediate contact in darkness. With his wife he had a whole world, rich and real and invisible.' seems to me to be more from Maurice's point of view.

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Yes it does seem that Maurice in particular finds a certain peace within his blindstate, something that Isabel cannot completely share in, or truly understand in quite the same way that Maurice does, becasue she can only have tempoary glimpses in his word.

Though I think it is normal for any couple, with or without the blindness to have seperate lives from each other, as well as togetherness, as many couples have thier own seperate interests from each other, and do things a part from each other, be it work, or a hobby, in addition to acting together.

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Though I think it is normal for any couple, with or without the blindness to have seperate lives from each other, as well as togetherness, as many couples have thier own seperate interests from each other, and do things a part from each other, be it work, or a hobby, in addition to acting together.

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Dark MuseI totally agree, also. You misunderstood my intentions in posting that part. I was not discounting the need of separateness - only pointing out how the statement shifted, to now concentrate on their separate lives. Yes, that is healthy and totally normal for couples and necessary, I feel to maintain a good relationship. Too much togetherness is suffocating.

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His hair was brown and crisp, his hands were large, reddish, intelligent, the veins stood out in the wrists; and his thighs and knees seemed massive

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I found this interessting, becasue it is another exaample of an imporantance placed upon both the hands and legs/thighs of a char in a Lawrence story, as in the last story we had quite the discussion of the use of such, and once more these elements are mentioned as a way of expressing the characteristics of a char.

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Maurice had a currious monolithic way of sitting in a chair, erect and distant. Isabel's heart always beat when she caught sight of him thus.

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I find it interesting, how Maurice is so often viewed as being connected to the earth in someway, as well he is portrayed as a very strong and impressive as well as towering figure. As here he is viewed as being akin to a monolith.

He is seen as being very rooted to the ground, in a sort of unmoving, and unchanging way.

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The cat had reared her sinister, feline length agianst his leg, clawing at his thigh affecitonately. He lifted her claws out of his flesh

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The use of the word sinister just struck me as really odd and out of place here.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found this interessting, becasue it is another exaample of an imporantance placed upon both the hands and legs/thighs of a char in a Lawrence story, as in the last story we had quite the discussion of the use of such, and once more these elements are mentioned as a way of expressing the characteristics of a char.

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Dark Muse, sorry to keep you waiting. I went out for the evening and just got back not long ago. I just turned on the computer.
DM, I wish you would not do that - abreviating or shorthand. At first I thought you were referring to a chair.:lol: I read these posts pretty fast and glance sometimes at the screen.
Anyway, I agree about the importance to Lawrence, at least, of the idea of a man's thighs as being almost a sexual symbol for him or one of passionate connection. This sounds very odd but in "Women In Love" there was a distinct scene when Ursula experiences the touching and passionate connection to Birkins thighs. I do recall also in other stories the emphasis on the thighs. I don't completely understand Lawrence's thinking on this but it definitely was something that facinated Lawrence. Hands also are often pointed out and emphasised - yes, you are right. I can understand the hand thing more than the thigh thing because I think a person's hands do say much about them and they can be so expressive. Artists love to draw hands and I had an art teacher once tell me that if you can master drawing hands you can master everything else.

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I find it interesting, how Maurice is so often viewed as being connected to the earth in someway, as well he is portrayed as a very strong and impressive as well as towering figure. As here he is viewed as being akin to a monolith.

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Yes, this is a good observation - connected to the earth. Also in some Lawrence work he will refer to a man as a tower of light or fire and in this story it is interesting to me how he saw Maurice as a tower of darkness - wasn't it?

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He is seen as being very rooted to the ground, in a sort of unmoving, and unchanging way.

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Good point.

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The use of the word sinister just struck me as really odd and out of place here.

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Yes, that cat scene is truly odd and reminescent of a scene in "Women in Love" which also featured a feline. I say to the claws in the leg - ouch! That really hurts when a cat does that and given Maurice's sensitive sense of touch you would think it would hurt him even more. Maybe the mere fact that the cat is physically connected to Maurice is actually appealing to him and to feel sensation in his legs even though it probably would be a pain sensation. Yes, 'sinister' is a very curious word placed in that statement. I don't really know what significance that can have or if the mere mention of this scene is representative or symbolic of something else.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Dark Muse, sorry to keep you waiting. I went out for the evening and just got back not long ago. I just turned on the computer.
DM, I wish you would not do that - abreviating or shorthand. At first I thought you were referring to a chair.:lol: I read these posts pretty fast and glance sometimes at the screen.

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Sorry old habbit that I slipped back into.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, this is a good observation - connected to the earth. Also in some Lawrence work he will refer to a man as a tower of light or fire and in this story it is interesting to me how he saw Maurice as a tower of darkness - wasn't it?

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Yes, it was a tower of darkness

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

The use of the word sinister just struck me as really odd and out of place here.

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The evil cat does sort of confuse me, but I think this is just part of showing how uncomfortable Maurice is while inside. This is the "sighted" world, as we've taken to describing it, and Maurice is not so good at interacting in it. The sinister cat seems like just another device to show how restless Maurice must be through this.

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Originally Posted by Quark

The evil cat does sort of confuse me, but I think this is just part of showing how uncomfortable Maurice is while inside. This is the "sighted" world, as we've taken to describing it, and Maurice is not so good at interacting in it. The sinister cat seems like just another device to show how restless Maurice must be through this.

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Quark, I am not sure if that is correct, but hey, it sounds good for now;) and I really don't have anymore thoughts on it presently. If something comes to me, I will post a random thought.

For now, I plan on going out again today, so I can't post till much later on tonight. Hope you all miss me - haha;) :lol: