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I was starting to wonder that too, maybe when I get the chance, I can go over the story again and try and find some different points which I could bring up. Many of the passages I had origninaly highlighted have already been discussed but I can take another look over it.
How funny - we must have ESP, DM. I was wondering where you were - that is why I asked where everyone was. I know Virgil won't be here - he went to his sister's for the weekend; long drive there; he will be back next week though to comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
That would be great, DM, if you could look the story over again. I also need to finish my second reading, so take your time. I just like to check to make sure no one dropped out completely; so my inquiry was really just that -curiousity and keeping tabs ;)
When I was re-reading the story the other night, I stopped at the part when Maurice came in from the barn. I need to progress with that and I am also in the middle of a story for the "Dubliners" thread. I am wondering where everyone is in there, as well. Only Niamh seems to be faithful so far. I guess I have to be patient - they will show up eventually.
Oh, we're here--just having hard time keeping up. So many and such long posts make it slow work for the responses. There's so much to respond to. Anyway, I'll post something Saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quark, I know what you mean, trying to keep up. I am a little tired out now myself and was taking a bit of a break, but wondered where everyone ran off to. The thread was beginning to disappear when I put it into search - was on the second page. If you can post some more comments tomorrow, or the next day, that would be great. I will go and check out the Chekhov now, but it is late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
So are we going to do the usual practice of posting different parts from the story and commenting on them? This time it seems like all the important things have already been discussed. :p
What an insult to put THE D.H. Lawrence thread on the second page! Shouldn't this thread be permanently on top? I never understand how the search result listings work. It's pretty random.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yeah, I second that--well, everything but the part about exhausting all the discussion topics. Let's get some chunks of text to comment on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pensive
Quark, I have to address this thread briefly, before I head over to that 'BIG' challenge in the Chekhov thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Ok, then, Quark, it certainly is an insult, especially when the thread "What are you thinking?" comes on the first page consistently; but don't you worry, I will keep this thread on the first page if it kills me!!!:D :lol:
Quote by Pensive:
Ok, smart aleck, was this part a joke? Was it ME you are referring to?Quote:
I saw someone today fishing for some D.H. Lawrence info to fill a paper with.
Quote by Quark:
Hi Pensive, glad you joined the group.Quote:
So are we going to do the usual practice of posting different parts from the story and commenting on them? This time it seems like all the important things have already been discussed.
Yes, definitely, Pensive and Quark. If you can be patient, I promise to post some soon, probably tonight. Last night at 3:30AM I read some more of the story and thought I would post those parts for discussion today; I had some good ideas on that part of the text and thought it would be good to get feedback from all of you as well. In fact, I stopped myself from finishing the story again, so that I could form some ideas on the parts I read up to and then post that tonight. I can't do it presently, because I have to address the Chekhov thread and then I will post more chunks of the story tonight - promise. Can you all wait for me till then? I know mostly what I wish to point out about those parts, or at least I did know last night.
Quark, We haven't yet exhausted the discussion topics. I could see that last night from my continued reading. As I said I will post more tonight. Hang-in there gang, or just randomly post more of your thoughts until I get to my post.Quote:
Yeah, I second that--well, everything but the part about exhausting all the discussion topics. Let's get some chunks of text to comment on.
As long as we're in front of the "What are you eating/drinking right now" thread, we're alright. It probably wouldn't look good if literature took a back seat to food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
No, it wasn't meant to be egata te, "toward you." I was talking about the person you were talking too, who I thought was just looking for paper ideas. I must have misread the post, though, because it wasn't anything like that. I got rid of my jab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Whenever you get time, Janine. I know you've already promised to kill yourself for the thread, but really there's no rush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh, and thanks for the post on Chekhov. It looked like you put some thought into it. I can't say if I'm going to have time tonight to respond.
Yeah - really, just so we beat out eating/drinking thread! Well, I sure wish Literature would lead the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Oh ok, but to be honest with you, I am not clear on what you are talking about, Quark, in this reference, and I don't have the energy to go back and look up your post I was commenting on. It truly wasn't very important.Quote:
No, it wasn't meant to be egata te, "toward you." I was talking about the person you were talking too, who I thought was just looking for paper ideas. I must have misread the post, though, because it wasn't anything like that. I got rid of my jab.
Here is what happened to me last night and why I did not return to post. About 5 PM here all the lights went out which meant our heat as well. We have hotwater heat but it is powered by electricity. I was put quite out of commission for the entire night. We all sat around, after we scared up enough candles to half see in the house, and waited for the cold night to set in. Truly it was an ordeal since is was so windy out and the temperature dropped dramatically overnight. I know poor Pensive goes through power-outages all the time, so now I can fully sympathise with you, P. Our heat and electricity was not restored till 16 hours later - Brrrrr.
This is why I could not post, as I had promised. Right now, I will have to take my time in this thread and delay the part I told you I would post. I am a bit frazzled and tired and I feel like my cold is getting worse again. Therefore----
It will have to be so today, a slight delay. We might lose our power again, since many areas are without it, and the utility companies are busy trying to restore all power; who knows - ours could go out again temporarily; also it is still quite windy out. At least I was able to cook my breakfast!Quote:
Whenever you get time, Janine. I know you've already promised to kill yourself for the thread, but really there's no rush.
So here is the option - either post some thoughts on the next section or wait for me to do so. I was going to post the part when the visitor and the couple were eating at the table, but if you wait I can do that either tonight or tomorrow and comment as well. No, Quark, I am not that dedicated to 'kill' myself over this thread or the Chekhov one;) . I just am trying to do my best, but I am only human!:lol:
Quark, so glad I did post when I did, in both threads, considering the rest of my cold/dark boring evening. Only thing I can say for that was, since there was so little one could do in the dark, I listened to all of the Chekhov CD set and enjoyed it very much. Glad I bought it. I will comment more about it in the Chekhov thread in a few minutes. See you over there.Quote:
Oh, and thanks for the post on Chekhov. It looked like you put some thought into it. I can't say if I'm going to have time tonight to respond.
And sorry I am holding everyone up. I will post soon....
Hey, I have not had much time online lately, but I am still around, but I have not got the chance yet to go over the story again. Just checking in.
Thanks ok, Dark Muse,
For now, I will just post this part for everyone to think about. I bolded up the significant words. I think this really shows the turmoil that Maurice is going through in-between his times of bliss and passion with his wife.Quote:
The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife. But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control or surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.
As with blind people his sense of hearing is enhanced. I think this is true of other senses, as well.Quote:
Tonight, however, he was still serene, though little tremors of unreasonable exasperation ran through him. He had to handle the razor very carefully, as he shaved, for it was not at one with him, he was afraid of it. His hearing also was too much sharpened. He heard the woman lighting the lamps on the corridor, and attending to the fire in the visitor's room. And then, as he went to his room he heard the trap arrive. Then came Isabel's voice, lifted and calling, like a bell ringing:
Hi people. I'm back after a weekend away. I am so friggin exhausted, there is no way I can read the thread right now. :sick: I'll catch up in a day or so.
Hi Virgil, I must have been posting around the same time you did. I didn't see you there. Things have slowed up some on this thread, so don't worry about posting till you are well rested. Glad you are back safe and sound. I hope you had a good time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
See you tomorrow. I am tired out too, since we had a 16 hour power-outtage here and I did not sleep well last night with no heat. So - see you tomorrow and bye everyone for now.:)
I found these lines interesting, becasue they seemed to equate Maurice's blindness and his relationship with Isabel after its occurance almost to that of a newly married couple, where at first they find a great bliss within it together, and the initmacy and isolation they have with each other, but as the reaility sets in more, and time wears on, they begin to have struggles with it. Such as often with a married couply as the years grow on, they begin to have difficulities within the marriage and the sort of paradise of it begins to fade.Quote:
They were newly and remotely happy. He did not even regert the loss of his side in these times of dark, palpable joy. A certain exulatance swelled his soul.
But as time wore on, sometimes the rich glamour would leave them. Sometimes after months of intensity, a sense of burden overcame Isable, a weariness, a terrible ennui, in that silent house apporached betwee a colonnade of teall-shafted pines.
I wonder, is it becasue of the new persepctive on life that blindness gave Maurice that made him think his feelings for Bertie may be different than they once were?Quote:
'Oh, I don't know. I might think differnetly now,' the blind man repiled. It was rather abstruse to Isabel
I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.Quote:
Her nerves were hurting her. She looked automaticaly at the hight, uncurtained windows. In the dusk she could just perceive outside a huge fir-tree swaying its boughs: it was as if she thought it rather than saw it. The rain came flying on the window panes. Ah, why had she no peace? These two men, why did they tear at her? Why did they not come-why was there this suspense?
This passage seemed interesting to me, becasue in someways Isabel seems to take on the role of almost a mock Madona, though she genuinely cares for her husband, and they do love each other, in someways she seems almost to take on the role of martyr in having to look after both her husband, and soon child, as both will be equally dependent upon her, as well as the way in which she seems to choose to put herself in isolation with her husband. Originally she gives up her friend Bertie becasue she did not feel right continuing to be friends with him, becaue of her husband.Quote:
Thinking this of herself, she arched her grey eyebrows and her rather heavy eyelids, with a little flicker of a smile, and for a moment her grey eyes looked amused and wicked, a little sardonic, out of her transfigured Madonna face.
I put the most imporant part in bold. It seems there are several instnaces within this story in which Isabel feels torn or caught between two different emtions, feelings or thoughts. As here she talks about her feelings of the rain. And later she talks about how she is both frightend and excited when she is in the darkness of the stables. Many cases she seemes to feel contradicting feelings.Quote:
She pulled on her overshoes, wrapped a large tartan shawl around her, put on a man's felt hat, and ventured out along the causeways of the first yard. It was very dark. The wind was roaring in the great elms behind the outhouses. When she came to the second yard the darkness seemed deeper. She was unsure of her footing. She wished she had brought a lantern. Rain blew agianst her. Half she liked it, half she felt unwilling to battle.
Dark Muse, That is a good analogy and observation. Even if Maurice was not blinded, there probably would be a period of 'cooling down' between this couple. Pychologists call the blissful period of a new marriage - maybe the first year or so - the 'honeymoon' stage. From there we do have to shift to a more normal or down-to-earth stage. We can't live forever in the throws of passion with our heads floating in the clouds. I think the difference here though is that unlike early married couples when Maurice returned they experienced something very deep between them due to the blindness and it was quite astonishing for both - a deeper passion and a keener sensitivity for Maurice. They say that the blind do feel in other ways - other senses and keener. This may sound silly but I had a cat that was stone deaf and I could swear she experienced things (a sort of sixth sense) that my other cats never did. It was as though she sensed more. I think this is true also of the blind. I have seen films and read books on this fact. I think that it is harder for Maurice, he being alone in his blindness now and he can successfully connect with his wife on that level but not all of the time. This causes him some anxiety and frustration which seems to me to be perfectly understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I do think it. I think 'blindness' would greatly alter a person, and not necessarily for the worse.Quote:
I wonder, is it becasue of the new persepctive on life that blindness gave Maurice that made him think his feelings for Bertie may be different than they once were?
I am glad you posted that part because I also found that passage so interesting and revealing. Yes, in this way Isabel is acting out like Maurice - like a blind person would act out or experience something - thinking it and not actually 'seeing it'. Again, when Isabel goes through the darkness in the barn she is confronted with the state her husband must live in permanently and it frightens her. Perhaps the awareness of it and the fact that she cannot share totally in his blind state without anxiety is where the actual fear lies.Quote:
I found this passage rather interesting, particualy the way in which it talked about how she "thought" the tree rather than "seeing it" in someways this seems to be a refelctiuon back to her husbands own blindness. As well, the great anxity she seems to feel over the idea in being left alone, and she wishes only that at least one of them should come to her.
I thought the mention of the title of Madonna was quite important, as well. True to some extent there is a sense of martyrism about Isabel or a sense of her giving up something, actually a great deal to please her husband and try to keep him happy. I also think she feels a frustration, that after sacrificing so much on her part he still is not always happy and neither is she. I feel that the isolation that the couple has adopted as the cure all for their situation is truly not working. I think both, and especially Isabel ideally need other people connections and other friends. When two people emerse themselves in their own separate world they put a lot of stress upon each other to create or maintain the partner's sense of happiness. In a way, I do not think this fair or reasonable.Quote:
This passage seemed interesting to me, becasue in someways Isabel seems to take on the role of almost a mock Madona, though she genuinely cares for her husband, and they do love each other, in someways she seems almost to take on the role of martyr in having to look after both her husband, and soon child, as both will be equally dependent upon her, as well as the way in which she seems to choose to put herself in isolation with her husband. Originally she gives up her friend Bertie becasue she did not feel right continuing to be friends with him, becaue of her husband.
Yes, Isabel's feelings are quite mixed and complex; I agree. Maurice is not the only one with anxieties and confusions.Quote:
I put the most imporant part in bold. It seems there are several instnaces within this story in which Isabel feels torn or caught between two different emtions, feelings or thoughts. As here she talks about her feelings of the rain. And later she talks about how she is both frightend and excited when she is in the darkness of the stables. Many cases she seemes to feel contradicting feelings.
I think it typical of Lawrence's writing, that he presents these two people with inner conflicts. We have seen this in all the stories we have read I believe. This makes us see the characters much more 3 dimensional and 'real'.