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You'll have to wait until I read it. ;) It did cross my mind as I read you and Dark Muse discuss it. If so perhaps I should have used it in my thesis. Could I have missed it? We'll see. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
As to that commentary above. That Raymond Carver story is excellent and I knew it was influenced by Lawrence's The Blind Man. If you get a chance some day, read it.
Oh, how interesting - the Raymond Carver story - do you think I can find it online? the text?
I guess you could have missed this transfiguration. You could only put so much into your thesis and you did a good thorough job, although this might have been an interesting example. I think that Maurice seems transfigured at the end, I am not sure of Bertie. He seemed more stunned; but I have only read the story once, so I might get a whole different impression next time around.
Virgil, guess what? I just found the online text to Cathedral and copied it to my hard-drive. It is at this link, if you are interested in reading it: http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/c...Cathedral2.htm I read a bit about the story on another site; the two stories are so similiar in concept. However, in this story the roles are reversed - the visitor who is an old friend to the wife is the blind man. Her husband is the one who feels threatened byt their closeness. Quite interesting.
Yes I would agree with that. Maurice seemed able to have overcome his initial feelings towrd Bertie after thier experince together, but Bertie, did not really seem to "grow" from the experince, and other than perhaps never wanting to visit thier house again LOL, I do not think he was changed. Rather he seemed rather petrified by both his revulsion of the physcial act, as well as the established intimacy caused from it.
Dark Muse, I got the same impression of the two men and how the felt afterwards, but I am in the midst of re-reading the story now, so that may change as time goes on. I started last night, but only got to about half and thought I would discuss some things that stood out to me up to that point in the story. I recall you or someone else mentioned they could already see the blood consciousness in the story; now that I think of it it was in a PM that Hira sent to me. In the following passages, especially the last part when Maurice is in the house again and alone in the bathroom I believe we do see this coming through quite clearly. This first part though stands out to me in that now Isabel is taken into the blind world of the blind man by entering the darkened barn - she is experiencing her own transfigurative experience by feeling blind herself within the confines of the darkness. If you notice the smells in the barn and the kitchen have been enhanced and when she completely immerses herself in the blackness she experinces sounds and odours completely as new in experience and greatly enhanced. Here it the text to the parts I am referring to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I underlined the key words and also note twice light or white is mentioned since Isabel will soon be emersed in darkness and obscurity as her husband is in his blindness. Then below is the actual experience in the darkness as she progresses into the sightless night. I thought this writing was brilliant:Quote:
She passed down the wide hall, and through a door at the end. Then she was in the farm premises. The scent of dairy, and of farm-kitchen, and of farm-yard and of leather almost overcame her: but particularly the scent of dairy. They had been scalding out the pans. The flagged passage in front of her was dark, puddled and wet. Light came out from the open kitchen door. She went forward and stood in the doorway. The farm-people were at tea, seated at a little distance from her, round a long, narrow table, in the centre of which stood a white lamp. Ruddy faces, ruddy hands holding food, red mouths working, heads bent over the tea-cups: men, land-girls, boys: it was tea-time, feeding-time. Some faces caught sight of her. Mrs. Wernham, going round behind the chairs with a large black teapot, halting slightly in her walk, was not aware of her for a moment. Then she turned suddenly.
Interesting last line since a few stories I have read of Lawrence's refer to a tower of light for a man and not of darkness. Yes, this line is so significant in this story to my mind and says so much. Amazing writing. Now back in the house - going through the passages back to Isabel's world of sight:Quote:
She pulled on her overshoes, wrapped a large tartan shawl around her, put on a man's felt hat, and ventured out along the causeways of the first yard. It was very dark. The wind was roaring in the great elms behind the outhouses. When she came to the second yard the darkness seemed deeper. She was unsure of her footing. She wished she had brought a lantern. Rain blew against her. Half she liked it, half she felt unwilling to battle.
She reached at last the just visible door of the stable. There was no sign of a light anywhere. Opening the upper half, she looked in: into a simple well of darkness. The smell of horses, and ammonia, and of warmth was startling to her, in that full night. She listened with all her ears, but could hear nothing save the night, and the stirring of a horse.
'Maurice!' she called, softly and musically, though she was afraid. 'Maurice--are you there?'
Nothing came from the darkness. She knew the rain and wind blew in upon the horses, the hot animal life. Feeling it wrong, she entered the stable, and drew the lower half of the door shut, holding the upper part close. She did not stir, because she was aware of the presence of the dark hindquarters of the horses, though she could not see them, and she was afraid. Something wild stirred in her heart.
She listened intensely. Then she heard a small noise in the distance--far away, it seemed--the chink of a pan, and a man's voice speaking a brief word. It would be Maurice, in the other part of the stable. She stood motionless, waiting for him to come through the partition door. The horses were so terrifyingly near to her, in the invisible.
The loud jarring of the inner door-latch made her start; the door was opened. She could hear and feel her husband entering and invisibly passing among the horses near to her, in darkness as they were, actively intermingled. The rather low sound of his voice as he spoke to the horses came velvety to her nerves. How near he was, and how invisible! The darkness seemed to be in a strange swirl of violent life, just upon her. She turned giddy.
Her presence of mind made her call, quietly and musically:
'Maurice! Maurice--dea-ar!'
'Yes,' he answered. 'Isabel?'
She saw nothing, and the sound of his voice seemed to touch her.
'Hello!' she answered cheerfully, straining her eyes to see him. He was still busy, attending to the horses near her, but she saw only darkness. It made her almost desperate.
'Won't you come in, dear?' she said.
'Yes, I'm coming. Just half a minute. Stand over--now! Trap's not come, has it?'
'Not yet,' said Isabel.
His voice was pleasant and ordinary, but it had a slight suggestion of the stable to her. She wished he would come away. Whilst he was so utterly invisible she was afraid of him.
'How's the time?' he asked.
'Not yet six,' she replied. She disliked to answer into the dark. Presently he came very near to her, and she retreated out of doors.
'The weather blows in here,' he said, coming steadily forward, feeling for the doors. She shrank away. At last she could dimly see him.
'Bertie won't have much of a drive,' he said, as he closed the doors.
'He won't indeed!' said Isabel calmly, watching the dark shape at the door.
'Give me your arm, dear,' she said.
She pressed his arm close to her, as she went. But she longed to see him, to look at him. She was nervous. He walked erect, with face rather lifted, but with a curious tentative movement of his powerful, muscular legs. She could feel the clever, careful, strong contact of his feet with the earth, as she balanced against him. For a moment he was a tower of darkness to her, as if he rose out of the earth.
What a contrast at first to her view of him in the yard with feet planted firmly on the ground. Now in the house he "wavered, and went cautiously".Quote:
In the house-passage he wavered, and went cautiously, with a curious look of silence about him as he felt for the bench. Then he sat down heavily. He was a man with rather sloping shoulders, but with heavy limbs, powerful legs that seemed to know the earth. His head was small, usually carried high and light. As he bent down to unfasten his gaiters and boots he did not look blind. His hair was brown and crisp, his hands were large, reddish, intelligent, the veins stood out in the wrists; and his thighs and knees seemed massive. When he stood up his face and neck were surcharged with blood, the veins stood out on his temples. She did not look at his blindness.
This last part one can see that transition again back into Isabel's world of sight and how unsure the blind man is at first coming back into this world, until he gets his bearings again. Then when he goes upstairs, again he is enveloped in his own world of sightlessness and darkness:Quote:
Isabel was always glad when they had passed through the dividing door into their own regions of repose and beauty. She was a little afraid of him, out there in the animal grossness of the back. His bearing also changed, as he smelt the familiar, indefinable odour that pervaded his wife's surroundings, a delicate, refined scent, very faintly spicy. Perhaps it came from the pot-pourri bowls.
Here is where the Lawrence idea and philosophy of blood consciousness comes into the story strongly stated. The writing is so poetic and flows as the consciousness does. Wonderfully expressed in this last paragraph!Quote:
He went away upstairs. She saw him mount into the darkness, unseeing and unchanging. He did not know that the lamps on the upper corridor were unlighted. He went on into the darkness with unchanging step. She heard him in the bathroom.
Pervin moved about almost unconsciously in his familiar surroundings, dark though everything was. He seemed to know the presence of objects before he touched them. It was a pleasure to him to rock thus through a world of things, carried on the flood in a sort of blood-prescience. He did not think much or trouble much. So long as he kept this sheer immediacy of blood-contact with the substantial world he was happy, he wanted no intervention of visual consciousness. In this state there was a certain rich positivity, bordering sometimes on rapture. Life seemed to move in him like a tide lapping, and advancing, enveloping all things darkly. It was a pleasure to stretch forth the hand and meet the unseen object, clasp it, and possess it in pure contact. He did not try to remember, to visualize. He did not want to. The new way of consciousness substituted itself in him.
This further expands on the idea and how when he is not intune with the blood consciousness or given over to it his life is then in chaos.Quote:
The rich suffusion of this state generally kept him happy, reaching its culmination in the consuming passion for his wife. But at times the flow would seem to be checked and thrown back. Then it would beat inside him like a tangled sea, and he was tortured in the shattered chaos of his own blood. He grew to dread this arrest, this throw-back, this chaos inside himself, when he seemed merely at the mercy of his own powerful and conflicting elements. How to get some measure of control or surety, this was the question. And when the question rose maddening in him, he would clench his fists as if he would compel the whole universe to submit to him. But it was in vain. He could not even compel himself.
Yes, when I was reading over the story, it seems to me that in someways, Isabel seems to take her husband's blindness on to herself. As when he husband is in darkness, or when she could not see him, he becomes invisible to her, and she becomes frightend of him, and she is only reassured once she can see him again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I rather liked the line, and in many ways, Isabel seems to take a comfort within the blindess of her husband, though sometimes it becomes overwhelming and frightening, it seems to her also exhilierating, as it does not seem he attempts in anyway to prevent her from acting within the world outside of him, but she seems to choose to live in isolation with him, and seems content in doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
DM - be back later and can answer your post then. I am going out now - it is 63 degrees here today - have to take advantage. I need some fresh air!
Well, I am back, but too tired now to post futher in ideas that what I posted earlier.
Dark Muse, did you read my last post? It was pretty involved and I thought you would comment directly on some of the points I made in that post. Hopefully tomorrow Quark or Virgil will comment on Lawrence's blood philosophy and other points I was trying to make in my last longer post. For now, until, I read more of the story I don't know what else to post about. Note - I underlined a lot of key words and phrases in that post.
Quote by Dark Muse:
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Yes, when I was reading over the story, it seems to me that in someways, Isabel seems to take her husband's blindness on to herself. As when he husband is in darkness, or when she could not see him, he becomes invisible to her, and she becomes frightend of him, and she is only reassured once she can see him again.
Good point about being frightened of him when she could not see him. Yes, she is only reassured when she is able to use her sight to see him or perceive him again. This shows the difference between how they perceive each other. The is more tackle and she more rooted in the visual world. Of course and naturally this would be the case.
In someways this is true...that Isabel takes on her husband's blindness, but I am not entirely sure it is true at the same time. I think he does become depressed and possibly feels quilty for being blind and not being as he had been and so this may effect Isabel's mood and in this respect she is altered by his blindness. I think she then feels that if she tries harder or is closer to him then all will be in harmony between them. I believe in the passages I quoted it begins to give the man's point of view as to how he feels at times that that balance is disturbed and he and his wife are no longer in harmony with each other. This would be understandable, one person being blind while the other is capable of sight. It would be hard for a seeing person to fully comprehend the invisible world of the sightless.
Quote by Dark Muse:
Because of their seclusiveness and keeping to themselves, I think this is true and yet when he is depressed, something else happens to awake a restlessness in each of them. I, therefore, do not think that Isabel is entirely content, in being the 'be all' and 'end all' of her husband's sightless world; I think he also is unhappy at these times. This would be part of that 'chaos' he feels when they are not synchronized. I think in the first year they were in harmony but now reality has set in and they have not maintained this level of intimacy at all times. There are times the slip out of this harmony and then Isabel worries about her husband and he, no doubt, feels somewhat insecure, about his position of being blind.Quote:
Yes, I rather liked the line, and in many ways, Isabel seems to take a comfort within the blindess of her husband, though sometimes it becomes overwhelming and frightening, it seems to her also exhilierating, as it does not seem he attempts in anyway to prevent her from acting within the world outside of him, but she seems to choose to live in isolation with him, and seems content in doing so.
Hope that answered some of your comments, DM.
Well I fear admitidly, I cannot really make any coments in regaurds to the blood consciousness theroy which was discussed within your post, becasue I haven't a grasp as to just what it is or what it consitutues so I cannot really evulaute it properly as it is related to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, that is true, there are ways and instanceas in which there is a speration between them, becasue in many ways they live in two different worlds, and priecive the world in different ways, so there are points in which this does cause strain upon them, and in someways, though she does become of part of her husbands world, she also remains in her own world, and does seem to express certain anxieites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Here is one of the phrases of which I found quite interesting:
I think in many ways the coming of the child is the center of a light of her anxiety about her situation with her husband. For because of his blindness he very much has to depend upon her, and so as she expreses her worry about caring for her child as well as her husbandQuote:
She wanted to be allowed to bear her child in peace, to nod by the fire and drift vaugely, physicaly, from day to day. Maurice was like an ominous thunder-cloud. She had to keep waking up to remember him.
She addresses her concerns reguarding her husbands depression, and shows she is worried that though they both wanted the baby, he will feel in someways more left out once she has it.Quote:
The child would occupy her love and attention. Ans then what of Maurice? What would he do? If only she could feel that he too would be at peach and happy when the child came! She did so want to luxuriate in a rich, physical satisfaction of maternity. But the man, what would he do? How could she provide for him, how avert those shattering black moods of his, which destoryed them both.
Yes it is true they do have thier moments of turmoil but really I think they are dealing with it, and I do not think it has caused too big of a wedge between them, at least not yet. Though within the story we can see the begining of worry between them, and concerns about thier relationship with each other.Quote:
Because of their seclusiveness and keeping to themselves, I think this is true and yet when he is depressed, something else happens to awake a restlessness in each of them. I, therefore, do not think that Isabel is entirely content, in being the 'be all' and 'end all' of her husband's sightless world; I think he also is unhappy at these times. This would be part of that 'chaos' he feels when they are not synchronized. I think in the first year they were in harmony but now reality has set in and they have not maintained this level of intimacy at all times. There are times the slip out of this harmony and then Isabel worries about her husband and he, no doubt, feels somewhat insecure, about his position of being blind.
There was the conversation between Maurice and Bertie towrd the end, addressing Maurice's insecurties:
There was also the moment when Bertie had first arrived and he was upstrais listening to them:Quote:
'She says she's content-only a little troubled about you'
'Why me?'
'Perhaps afraid that you might brood' said Bertie cautiously
'She needn't be afraid of that' He continued to caress the flattend grey head of the cat with his fingers. 'What I am afraid of' he resumed, 'is that she'll find me a dead weight, always aone with me down here'
'I don't think you need think that' said Bertie, though this was what he feared himself.
' I don't know' said Maurice. 'Sometimes I feel it isn't fair that she's saddled with me'
Here he is confronted with the fact that he is apart from the world when Isabel's frined comes over, and they can share in the world of sight togehter, something Maurice cannot have with his wife, and he feels the insecurity of this and the accute sense of someone else being able to share a part of his wife's life that he cannot.Quote:
They moved away. Pervin hear no more. But a childish sense of desolation had come over him, as he heard thier brisk voices. He seemed shut out-like a child that is left out. He was aimless and exlcuded , he did not know what to do with himself. The helpless desolation came over him. He fumbled nervously as he dressed himself, in a state of childishness. He disliked the Scotch accent in Bertie's speach, and the slight response if found on Isabel's tounge. He disliked the slight purr of conplanceancy in the Scottish speach. He disliked intensely the glib way in which Isabel spoke of thier happiness and nearness. It made him recoil. He was fretful and beside himself like a child, he had almost a chidlish nostalgia to be included the life circle. And at that same time he was a man, dark and powerful and infuriated with his own weakness. By some fatal flaw, he could not be by himself, he had to depend on the support of another. And this very dependence enraged him. He hated Bertie Reid, and at the same time he knew the hatred was nonsense, he knew it was the outcome of his weakness.
Dark Muse, Sorry to keep you waiting again. Oh, don't fear admittedly, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I thought you had recalled what was said about it before in one of the previous stories. I find it difficult myself to explain it. I think it was featured some in "Odour Of Chrysanthamums" and I know so in "Horse-Dealer's Daughter" but you may not have joined the group at that point. I had forgotten that, you seem like such a devote now, DM.;) I think Virgil is the best one to explain this aspect of Lawrence's work but the idea was suggested to me by Hira in a recent PM to me about the story. As I was re-reading the story that night I came across that passage the actually used the words and made it so obvious. Only way I can explain it is that the husband embodies the blood-philosophy idea of Lawrence - in other words he relates from the blood and the flesh and not from strickly the intellect. If you notice Bertie they describe as smarter or keener of mind than Maurice. When Maurice goes up to the bathroom he allows this blood consciousness to dominate because he gives into the fact of it and so everything (his existence) flows naturally. Bertie, who cannot connect with the blood consciousness is stiff and contained and remains appart - disconnected from other humans and his own inner blood consiciousness. I think I am close in this explaination but no doubt Virgil will want to add more to it. He knows more than I do verbally. I know more instinctively just what Lawrence means by it. Virgil is busy, no doubt since his mother just had surgery, so let's give him a few days to address this part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think this also and the fact that now Maurice cannot enter his wife's sightful world and must remain, in a way, imprisioned in his own dark invisible sightless world. Isabel can however experience the sightless world in the darkness of the barn or otherwise. Therefore the only plane they can meet on is in the world devoid of eye-sight. This does not mean they don't also experience something much deeper and more mysterious now, but sometimes the rapture of this 'other preception' causes them both deep anxiety and stress. This can be well understood.Quote:
Yes, that is true, there are ways and instanceas in which there is a speration between them, becasue in many ways they live in two different worlds, and priecive the world in different ways, so there are points in which this does cause strain upon them, and in someways, though she does become of part of her husbands world, she also remains in her own world, and does seem to express certain anxieites.
Yes, thanks for quoting this. It is quite an interesting passage. If you think of it after the child arrives then the household or family will consist of two sighted people and one unsighted man. Surely the husband and the wife would have their worries and anxieties about that fact. Also the dependency factor is a big one. I am sure Isabel longs for the situation of her maternity to be a natural and normal one but how can it when Maurice is sometimes depressed over his situation.Quote:
Here is one of the phrases of which I found quite interesting:
I think in many ways the coming of the child is the center of a light of her anxiety about her situation with her husband. For because of his blindness he very much has to depend upon her, and so as she expreses her worry about caring for her child as well as her husband
I pretty much said this and agreed with you above.Quote:
She addresses her concerns reguarding her husbands depression, and shows she is worried that though they both wanted the baby, he will feel in someways more left out once she has it.
Yes, I think basically they are dealing with it and they seem truly to love one another. I don't think there is trouble at this point to a major degree but that could change when the child comes along or the child might add to bring them even closer. Remember they lost a child while he was in the war. What hell poor Maurice must have gone through. I think that Lawrence shows here the ravages or the results of the war without actually drawing us into the actual war or the action. I am sure Maurice is only one of many whose lives were drastically changed by the horrors of the First World War. In an offhand way, Lawrence presents war to us. This reminds me of a film I just saw - "Flags of our Fathers" - although some war scenes were shown and were quite graphic much of the movie dealt with the ravages of war - the toll it takes physcologically on the individuals. Blindness would be bad enough but then to have to recall all one went through in a war would also be pretty terrible. If Maurice experiences periods of deep depression one can certainly see how he would have amble cause to feel this way.Quote:
Yes it is true they do have thier moments of turmoil but really I think they are dealing with it, and I do not think it has caused too big of a wedge between them, at least not yet. Though within the story we can see the begining of worry between them, and concerns about thier relationship with each other.
Yes, and I think that this would be realistic. I think one would wonder about how scarred one was and how disfigured. I thought that scene was so touching really and showed the Maurice was only human and had his human weaknesses and concerns.Quote:
There was the conversation between Maurice and Bertie towrd the end, addressing Maurice's insecurties:
Yes, this also shows a realistic Maurice I believe. One can relate to just how he would feel and how insecure knowing now his wife is existing in the intimate world which includes sight and he is deficient in this respect in meeting with her close friend. It would be bad enough the two men might have some sense of rivalry with the wife - not for love but for affection/friendship and therefore with the added factor of Maurice being different than they, then I can well understand his insecure feelings at that moment.Quote:
There was also the moment when Bertie had first arrived and he was upstrais listening to them:
Exactly!.... and you put that so well, DM. Good job on your post. :thumbs_upQuote:
Here he is confronted with the fact that he is apart from the world when Isabel's frined comes over, and they can share in the world of sight togehter, something Maurice cannot have with his wife, and he feels the insecurity of this and the accute sense of someone else being able to share a part of his wife's life that he cannot.
This is fun but I hope a few others show up soon.
I came into the group right after you finnished up the storyQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Odour Of Chrysanthamums
I will eagery await to hear what Virgil has to say upon the subject, but your own explination did much to help my understanding on the subject. I can see what you mean in the comparrioson between Bertie and Maurice.
Bertie is talked about as being much more of the intellectual and seems unconected with the physical world in someways, both in his lack of ablity to connect with people, as well as well you cannot picture Bertie getting his hands dirty.
While Maurice, though he is said to be more slow, and is portrayed as perhaps not being as witty as Bertie is, he enjoys phyiscal labor, and has a strong connection to working with the earth. This could be a result of his blindness, as the need to really be hands on with the earth to reassure of himself of its exisitinces, and having to live in a different world, than Bertie, while Bertie might take these things for granted, sense he is part of the seeing world, there is the one comparrison Isabel gives:
I underlined what I thought were the key phrases, Maurice is portrayed as being much more emotional than Bertie is as Bertie lives more in the world of the mind, or thoughts and ideas, while Maurice lives closer to the earth, and more in the physical world before him.Quote:
Bertie was a barrister and a man of letters, a Scotchman of the intellectual type, quick, ironical, sentimental, and on his knees before the woman he adored but did not want to marry. Maurice Pervin was different. He came of good old country family-the Grange was not a very great distance from Oxford. He was passionate, snsitive, perhaps over-senstive, wincing, a big fellow with heavy limbs and a forehead that flushed painfully. For his mind was slow, as if drugged by the strong provincial blood that beat in his veins. He was very senstive to his own mental slowness, his feelings being quick and acute. So that he was just the oppisite of Bertie whose mind was much quicker than his emotions which were not so very fine.
Perhaps this is do to the fact that the world at large, is lost to Maurice becasue he cannot see it he can only know what is directly under him. While Bertie perhaps does not see what is right before him, becaue he can look far ahead of him. He is not so much tied to the present.
Yes that is a good point. In someways Isabel has a bit of an unfair advantage over her husband, there are ways in which a person can prohbiit thier sight, and yet there is know way a blind person can see. So his wife can in someways, become a part of his world, and to a degree experince what he experinces, but she has the knoweledge of being able to escape that as well. She is not trapped within it forever, and it allows the wife to become apart of both worlds, while her husband must only stay within his own dark world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes this is quite true, and I think Isabel might have anxieites over wondering wheather having the child will lesson her husbands depression of if it will worsen it, and how she is going to find a balance between the two. The child could put an extra strain upon some of the struggles they are having now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I also found it interesting that as Isabel is getting ready to have her child, Maurice, begins to view himself as a child becasue of his dependency and sense of helplessness.
Yes, you make a good point about the war, it is true, within this story we do not need any actual secnes of account of the war to see just how it can effect and ravish the lives of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
As you get the impression, from the fact that they did try to have a child before, and how they are dealing with their problems now, that they were always a happy loving couple but now the affects of the war has reached into thier lives and has threatened thier exisitince together. Put a marr on thier happiness, and what could have been the picture of a "perfect" family. In the way that Maurice has been scared, there has been a scar put on thier happiness and life together. Something that will never go away even if it can be overcome or worked around.
I wonder with the discussion of Maurice's depression within the story, and the dark moods that sometimes come over him, was there knowledge of PTSD (Post tramatic stress disorder) doing the time period in which the story was written?
Yes that is very true. It was a very real moment, as well as the fact, that even though they do not really care for each other. Maurcie is able in a way to confinde in Bertie, what perhaps, he fears to speak of with his wife. He can share the fears with the unlikely ally, he does not want Isabel to know he has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
A shame you missed that one - it was a good one. You might want to read it on your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Geez, DM, haha...you are writing posts as long as mine now. Good for you!:thumbs_up
Yes, and if I talk to him on PM him, I will point it out to him, so he does not miss it. There is definitely a difference in the two men, as you talk about below. This difference is often seen in Lawrence's work and was definitely born from the fact his two parents were so very different and related to life differently. His mother would have represented the more intellectual aspect and his father actually the blood consciousness and the earthy aspect. There has been tons written on Lawrence's blood consciousness idea in his work and what formed it.Quote:
I will eagery await to hear what Virgil has to say upon the subject, but your own explination did much to help my understanding on the subject. I can see what you mean in the comparrioson between Bertie and Maurice.
Good, this is correct. Maurice has a greater affinity with the earth and the natural elements and his innate feelings and not his itellectual reasoning. He is more instinctive and not so 'guarded' as Bertie is.Quote:
Bertie is talked about as being much more of the intellectual and seems unconected with the physical world in someways, both in his lack of ablity to connect with people, as well as well you cannot picture Bertie getting his hands dirty.
"physical" is a key word here. Maurice is more physical and so this has been greater enhanced by his very blindness. You are right - Bertie takes his sight for granted, as most of us do. Good quote you provided.Quote:
While Maurice, though he is said to be more slow, and is portrayed as perhaps not being as witty as Bertie is, he enjoys phyiscal labor, and has a strong connection to working with the earth. This could be a result of his blindness, as the need to really be hands on with the earth to reassure of himself of its exisitinces, and having to live in a different world, than Bertie, while Bertie might take these things for granted, sense he is part of the seeing world, there is the one comparrison Isabel gives:
Yes, definitely so - more emotional and more connected to the earth and to his wife. This connection is so enhanced it can become too much at times....too overwhelming. Again - "physical world" is a good thing to point out. Bertie acts on intellect and reason whereas Maurice acts on instinct and animal motivation. If you notice he is more intune with the animals in the barn and out buildings. He is more intune with the smells and the darkness and the feel of the night. He 'feels' life. Bertie has not to ability to connect at this level and he has no concept of what it is like either. This 'feeling' is the blood-consciousness idea.Quote:
I underlined what I thought were the key phrases, Maurice is portrayed as being much more emotional than Bertie is as Bertie lives more in the world of the mind, or thoughts and ideas, while Maurice lives closer to the earth, and more in the physical world before him.
True and well put. Interesting thought.Quote:
Perhaps this is do to the fact that the world at large, is lost to Maurice becasue he cannot see it he can only know what is directly under him. While Bertie perhaps does not see what is right before him, becaue he can look far ahead of him. He is not so much tied to the present.
Exactly - Isabel can live in either world but Maurice cannot. Isabel can escape but Maurice is trapped forever in his sightless world.Quote:
Yes that is a good point. In someways Isabel has a bit of an unfair advantage over her husband, there are ways in which a person can prohbiit thier sight, and yet there is know way a blind person can see. So his wife can in someways, become a part of his world, and to a degree experince what he experinces, but she has the knoweledge of being able to escape that as well. She is not trapped within it forever, and it allows the wife to become apart of both worlds, while her husband must only stay within his own dark world.
Absolutely agree. Hey, DM, we sure are agreeing a lot on this one...hehe..;) :lol: Glad you don't hate this woman. I picked the story out with you in-mind this time. I didn't want you to hate the character...;)Quote:
Yes this is quite true, and I think Isabel might have anxieites over wondering wheather having the child will lesson her husbands depression of if it will worsen it, and how she is going to find a balance between the two. The child could put an extra strain upon some of the struggles they are having now.
That is an interesting thought. I think that maybe men who have sight might also feel a little like this at times and also feel a little jealous of their wive's maternity or a little threatened. I have read it is so with some couples.Quote:
I also found it interesting that as Isabel is getting ready to have her child, Maurice, begins to view himself as a child becasue of his dependency and sense of helplessness.
I kind of stole that from actual writings of Lawrence's about including ideas of war or the background being the atmosphere of the wartime and yet him not directly mentioning it. He did this in "Women in Love". We discussed it somewhat in that thread awhile back.Quote:
Yes, you make a good point about the war, it is true, within this story we do not need any actual secnes of account of the war to see just how it can effect and ravish the lives of the people.
Plus they must have anxiety knowing they lost the first child. Yes, the war did put a scar or a mar on the relationship. It had to. I think one would not be human if it did not have some effect. It won't go away ever, they must learn to deal with it. That is all anyone can hope to do.Quote:
As you get the impression, from the fact that they did try to have a child before, and how they are dealing with their problems now, that they were always a happy loving couple but now the affects of the war has reached into thier lives and has threatened thier exisitince together. Put a marr on thier happiness, and what could have been the picture of a "perfect" family. In the way that Maurice has been scared, there has been a scar put on thier happiness and life together. Something that will never go away even if it can be overcome or worked around.
I don't know if that was recognised then but I think that physcological disorders such as that were being highly explored during Lawrence's time. I would venture to say that this man was suffering some effects of that but oddly enough from things I have read many of the men in WWI or II would not really open up and talk to their families about their wartime experiences. I think, as a sort of survival mechanism, they just stored it away in the deep recesses of their minds, otherwise they would be daily haunted by unspeakable things they had seen. I don't think anyone could go through a war and be in combat without the after-effects of that experience and without periods of slipping into depression; compile this with the fact, that daily, this man, Maurice, is reminded of it due to his disability and he has more than enough reason for his reactions at times.Quote:
I wonder with the discussion of Maurice's depression within the story, and the dark moods that sometimes come over him, was there knowledge of PTSD (Post tramatic stress disorder) doing the time period in which the story was written?
Oddly enough this scene seems to parallel a part of "Sons and Lovers" when Clara's husband and Paul are as mortal enemies but then eventually the two men see things differently and actually become close and confide in one another. It is as though they both recognise the fact they are both suffering from some element lacking in their lives - some flaw they can't seem to escape from. I guess they find solace in this and so eventually reach out to one another. Actually, Paul befriends Claira's husband. Her the befriending is being instigated by Maurice. In both cases these men are deficient in some way and unable to connect to other humans, women in particular. They both lack wholeness.Quote:
Yes that is very true. It was a very real moment, as well as the fact, that even though they do not really care for each other. Maurcie is able in a way to confinde in Bertie, what perhaps, he fears to speak of with his wife. He can share the fears with the unlikely ally, he does not want Isabel to know he has.
I might have read it before, I know for school once I had to read a story about Chrysanthamums, but I cannot swear it was the some one, as I do not remember that well, but I shall defninetly like to read it on my own sometime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I got that feeling of perhaps being a bit overwheling by the fact that he was called over-senstive, and that it was descibred as being wincing at times. As this seems to indicate that his connection perhaps both to the physical world and his world and his wife, can be almost painful at times, he is so reliant upon it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I also noticed how much he seems to like to escape into the barn when he needs to get away. It seems to give him a certain peace to be there among the animals, and in his own dark world, without being confronted by the world of sight.
It is true about Bertie, he comes off as being almost insenstive in someways, but I do not get the feeling he does this on purpose, but that he is just simply clueless to how he comes off in his inablity to really sympathize with someone elses point of view.
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Absolutely agree. Hey, DM, we sure are agreeing a lot on this one...hehe..;) :lol: Glad you don't hate this woman. I picked the story out with you in-mind this time. I didn't want you to hate the character...;)
I know it is scary, isn't it? LOL, really I did not truly dislike any of the chars in this story, perhaps I was not the biggist fan of Bertie, but I don't really hate him.
Yes that makes sense, as they now have to share some of the attention and affection which once was soely theres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, this is very true, and this is something of which I have first hand experince with. My boyfriend was in Iraq, and was sent home becasue of injuries he sustained, and he suffers from PTSD, and infact, though he is not completly blind, one of the affects of his injuries, as his vision. He has very low vision now, in such a way that it does impact his daily life and a lot of some of the things he use to be able to do, he cannot anylongerQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
Very good point, yes that is quite true, nice job pointing that out. Both the men are lacking something in the world, and it seems that what the one lacks, the other has, though in this case, I am not so sure that Maurice's attempted friendship, is going to be fully returned by Bertie.
I found it a bit intresting how Isabel felt so certain that they should be friends with each other, there is almost a sort of prophacy in her statement thatQuote:
From the first the two men did not like each other. Isabel felt that they ought to get on together. But they did not. She felt that if only each could have the clue to the other there would be such rare understanding between them. It did not come off, however. Bertie adopted a slightly ironical attitude, very offensive to Maurice, who returned the Scotch irony with English resentment, a resentment which deepend sometimes into stupid hatred.
As this seems to suggest that secen that is to come later in the story, when the two finaly do connect to each other.Quote:
She felt that if only each could have the clue to the other there would be such rare understanding between them.
This story reminds me of Virginia Woolf's book, The Waves. Just like in that novel, we have these people with vastly different personalities all wishing they could have what each other have. Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.
I think someone else mentioned the ending being surprising, and I have to agree. I really didn't expect this one to end with a reconciliation and an almost happy ending. Everything seemed to be moving toward crisis. It really had a tragic look to it until the very end.
Hey you two are getting along way too well this time around. That's not allowed. ;) You're supposed to be disagreeing so i can come in and break the tie. :p :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
LOL sorry Virgil