Printable View
Hehe well for now I just want to say, first of all I did not know it was going to be a horror story LOL
To me that scene in the barn with Bertie and Maurice= CREEEPY
By the way, did anyone else think Bertie might have been gay?
When I get the chance, I plan to read though it again and highlight my faveorite phrases and I should have those ready by Monday sometime.
Haha, no I did not think it was a horror story. I did find the ending uncomfortable, especially when the blind man had Bertie feel is empty eye-sockets. That seemed 'creepy', but it was not unrealistic for a blind man to do so. Remember he has no visual sense to know another person, he must rely on 'touch'. His world now is a tackle one and very viseral, sensual. I think if anything it was tender and demonstrated the lines his wife said, when she was trying to explain to Bertie, that they now had 'something else'....but she could not explain it in words, something that replaced her husband's sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I don't think Lawrence would have intended Bertie to be gay. I think he is getting more to the whole idea that Bertie cannot truly 'connect' with people emotionally or on the level that now the blind man can. The blind man has gone through a tranformation and the ending the blind man forces this on Bertie - this is true. I don't think they view the scene in the barn quite the same. Bertie keeps very much contained and to himself and is a bachelor and somewhat of a recluse. He is resigned to his life of solitude and when the blind man breaks into his wall of solitude it is an earth shattering experience for Bertie.Quote:
By the way, did anyone else think Bertie might have been gay?
Quote:
When I get the chance, I plan to read though it again and highlight my faveorite phrases and I should have those ready by Monday sometime.
Mostly I jest, though I did really think that the scene was a bit creepy and it reminded me in someways of Grapes of Wrath at the every end, where the woman nurses from her breast the grown man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I understand how the Blindman relies upon his other senses, and though perhaps a bit awakard, the part in which he wanted to feel Bertie's face, that made sense and was reasonable.
But I think when you tell someone to feel your scar and stick thier fingers in your eye sockets, that is a little extreme.
Yes I was aware the Bertie really was uncomftrable with any sort of true intimacy with other people. But just the way he was decribed and the fact that he has "girlfriends" but still remains a bachelor, though it is because of his inablity to make true comitment, I could not help but to picture him as being somewhat of a dandy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
[QUOTE=Dark Muse;537693]Mostly I jest, though I did really think that the scene was a bit creepy and it reminded me in someways of Grapes of Wrath at the every end, where the woman nurses from her breast the grown man.[QUOTE]
I knew you were partly jesting because you put hehe first. Wow, I don't recall that part of "The Grapes of Wrath"...it has been years since I read that book - high school to be precise; maybe they gave us the censored version....hehe...now I am jesting. I will have to go back and read that ending again.
Quote:
I understand how the Blindman relies upon his other senses, and though perhaps a bit awakard, the part in which he wanted to feel Bertie's face, that made sense and was reasonable.
Well, I must agree with this and that yes, the part with him forcing poor Bertie to feel his eye-sockets freaked me out, as well. Things like that do. But I can't help but think this was Lawrence's point. Afterall, the husband had to live permanently with these horrible scars and I think he wanted Bertie to know what that would be like; so therefore he had him tactually feel them first-hand, as though he was experiencing his own face.Quote:
But I think when you tell someone to feel your scar and stick thier fingers in your eye sockets, that is a little extreme.
I don't think back then it would have been so unusual for this to be the case with a man. I think this man's concentration was on his work and his ambition and his life went into a mode of acceptance as to his fate being single. He does not sound like the most attractive man in the world and when the wife described his short legs that sounded like a real turn-off to me. I saw him more like the 'clerky' type of guy. What made you think he was more of a 'dandy'? To me he seemed intelligent, but always in full control of himself and unaware of his own emotional makeup.Quote:
Yes I was aware the Bertie really was uncomftrable with any sort of true intimacy with other people. But just the way he was decribed and the fact that he has "girlfriends" but still remains a bachelor, though it is because of his inablity to make true comitment, I could not help but to picture him as being somewhat of a dandy.
Hehe yeah that scene creeped me out a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I agree that is the case, and at the start of it, when they were first talking over dinner, I thought that Bertie was being a bit tactless and insenstive in the questions he was asking, and the way in which he was talking. It is true that he could not truly understand, untill he in someway experinced it first hand, which had changed his perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I do not know, just something about the way his general personality was, and the way in which he seemed kind of gib, and the fact that he is always hagning out with women, without being intimate with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And in a way it is almost like he was Isabel's girlfriend. And in comparison to Maurice he just did not seem very masculine.
I do agree though that he was not described in a very flattering way.
I agree - from our point of limited view it was kind of creepy, but to Maurice I believe it wasn't at all. Again, I think that is the point that Lawrence was trying to impart to us - how different seeing people's perception is compared to blind people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I got that impression, too and yes, I don't think he could begin to realise or apprehend what it was like to be scared or blinded before the incident in the barn. It had to be first hand and personal.Quote:
Yes I agree that is the case, and at the start of it, when they were first talking over dinner, I thought that Bertie was being a bit tactless and insenstive in the questions he was asking, and the way in which he was talking. It is true that he could not truly understand, untill he in someway experinced it first hand, which had changed his perception.
I didn't see him much different than other characters I have read about in Lawrence's and other's stories of that time period. I just got the impression that he was delicate and rather whimpy. I will have to re-read that part again and see if anything jumps out at me; but as to him being gay, I never picked up that idea from the text.Quote:
I do not know, just something about the way his general personality was, and the way in which he seemed kind of gib, and the fact that he is always hagning out with women, without being intimate with them.
And in a way it is almost like he was Isabel's girlfriend. And in comparison to Maurice he just did not seem very masculine.
I do agree though that he was not described in a very flattering way.
hehe it is probably just meQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well, but even if he were, it would not have any bearing on the story, do you think? I got more the notion that the husband felt quite left out at the dinner table. I don't think he felt that Bertie could take his place with his wife, but I felt there was a sense of feeling snubbed for the husband and perhaps jealousy. The wife and Bertie could still share the world of the seeing, of which the blind man now was completely excluded. One could certainly see how he would feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Haha, you two always seem to disagree about a character. :D I'll be reading the story during the week.
:lol: haha - and here I thought I safely picked a story neither one of you could acuse the woman of being a b****! I read a few that would have provided women characters who would be prime targets, but I refrained from suggesting those. One such story, "Two Bluebirds", we must eventually read/discuss, because if you and DM thought that other woman was a b****, then wait until you see this wife. Oh my goodness - she takes the cake!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, glad you will be reading it too. Take your time. I know this will be a busy hectic week for you.
LOL I am not really disagrering at least not trying to, it was just a funny thought that came to me when I was reading the story, that in my mind I could see him being gay, but it is not really an imporant issue, and I agree that he probably was not intended to be so, just how it came off to me.
I haven't read this story in a while so I don't recall the possible homosexuality. Or let me say I vaguely remember it. But let me just say that at about the time this story was written Lawrence was friends with the philosopher Bertram Russell, who happened to be gay. Lawrence even went to at least one but perhaps several of Russell's parties, which were a gathering of homosexuals. It's hard to say exactly what happened, but Lawrence may have had an initial attraction to homosexuality but shortly then had a major repulsion to it and he and Russell had a big falling out. There is a famous Lawrence letter to Russell that gives Lawrence's side to this. If when i read the story and I think there is a link to Lawrence's life I will find that letter.
OK, Virgil, I know what you are going to say to me next. Janine, could you look in the timeline book and see when the story was written, so that is what I just did....I am one step ahead of you. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I found this entry:
Two curious statements stand out to me here - the first being in Lawrence's own words "but I've done 'The Blind Man' --the end queer and ironical." The statement that follows, I don't quite understand the significance of; I guess I would have to read that essay. Also I don't have assess to Carswell to know the background of the story.Quote:
NOVEMBER 1918 At Chapel Farm Cottage until 14, except for a visit to London 11, for the Armistice party at Montague Shearman's, then at Mountain Cottage, except for a visit to London and Berkshire 23-6.
9 NOV. Lawerence told Catherine Carswell that he was doing 'The Blind Man'.
21 NOV. I've not done 'The Fox yet --but I've done 'The Blind Man' --the end queer and ironical. I realise how many people are just rotten at the quick. I've written three little essays, 'Education of the People' [Moore 566]. For the background to 'The Blind Man' see Carswell 105-6.
23 NOV. Lawrence told Pinker that he had written three short stories, two of which were very good. The third was 'Tickets Please', then called 'John Thomas'. During this month Lawrence had made several visits to a dying friend in Eastwood, and had probably travelled between Ripley and Eastwood by tram.
The other remark that Lawrence saw this story as "very good" stands out to me from this entry.
I just found this commentary online at this site:
http://litmed.med.nyu.edu/Annotation...ew&annid=12343
I found this part noteworthy to post here.
Virgil, do you think the ending is a transfiguration for the two males?Quote:
Although communication, disability, and human connection are three important issues considered in "The Blind Man," a major lesson of the story is aptly summed up by the character, Bertie: "I suppose we're all deficient somewhere" (92). The ending of this tale has a visceral power. The final three pages depicting the emotional transformation (facilitated by the simple act of touching) of the two male characters are riveting.
The conclusion reminds readers of the joy and responsibility of human intimacy. The entire story underscores the difficulty and possibility of rebuilding damaged lives and overcoming loss. There are striking similarities between "The Blind Man" and Raymond Carver's Cathedral (see this database). These two short stories work especially well when read together. Both of them make a convincing argument that of all five human senses, touch is the most powerful.
Thanks Janine. I was going to ask you. ;) Hmm, that's a little later than I thought. The Russell incident happened around 1915 I think.
Gosh, you are fast. Didn't I know it though - I knew you well enough by now, that you would ask me to look it up. hahaha. I get to do all the work. I typed that whole thing out, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I don't really think there is any suggestion of homosexuality in the story and if it were true that Bertie had those tendancies I don't think that would play into this story or why Maurice, being blind, would instigate the incident in the barn. I did not see that in anyway as a sexual advance. I felt it was purely tackle and to aid in the other man's understanding of what it was to become blind.
Did you read the commentary I just posted - I had to edit to add that to my post so you may have missed it. I found it online. I agree that the ending had a great impact and is viseral. The ending was powerful.