Evolution vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by cuppajoe_9

Not particularly. I know many people who believe that, and believed it myself for quite some time. A reasonably educated believer would most have to come to that conclusion eventually, as the theory that species evolve is about as much in doubt as the theory that the earth goes around the sun.

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A wise and well-worded answer. You are a man of great integrity, mon ami. You will go far in life. I wish you well. As you say, the conclusion must be arrived at eventually. How one gets there seems to be a question, but the end result is the same. Everything evolves and changes to fit a changing world, with few exceptions. Man isn't one of them. ;) If we had not evolved, changing to suit different needs, we would all look alike. What a boring world that would be! :) :nod:

Thank you very much, Pendragon, and let me assure you that the respect is mutual.

Jesus Said
"i Am The Same Yesterday Today And Forever."
Man Needs A Constant In His Life , Something That Will Never Fail Him Or Injure Him But Will Remain A Guiding Light To Bring Him From The Darkness Of Disbelief.

I can appreciate your usage of Jesus' words, I think that they are wonderful.

But what does your idea of Man needing a constant have to do with the verity/authenticity of the idea of evolution?

The only constant source we have, (or I have at least) a firm rock or standard, so to speak, is in Christ and Christ alone. Whatever He did or said is our standard. For example, the Word of God- it is true, because God called it true, and in faith we believe in it.

It is only because we have the certainty of this fact that we can be sure of everything else. We can be sure of our origin, of our history as recorded in the Bible. Because our faith is in Christ.

Therefore when man doesn't believe in God, they are obliged to find another way of explaining our origin, and our history. We say man cannot rewrite history, but that is exactly what we are doing. We have deviated from the truth, and have believed the lies and deception of Satan. HE obviously doesn't want us to believe God. So he plants half truth (lies) in our thoughts, and doubts. He is using the same weapon over and over again- History repeating itself- as he first did with Eve. If mankind would just place their entire trust in God and in the authenticity of His Word, we would have been so much more well off now. Surely we would've learnt from history as recorded in the Bible, and not have fallen into the same trap time and time over again.

When I see it, (history repeating itself- Satan playing the same trick and men falling for it all the time) I always have a sense of utter frustration. Why can't people just listen to God, just believe in His Word? Why can't they JUST choose to accept the fact that they cannot have control of their own lives and be done with it? I sigh and double sigh over and over again and the degenerated state of mankind. I pray to God for pity and mercy- perhaps He might turn His justifiable wrath and judgment away from us for yet a little while. Then perhaps, just PERHAPS man would see the lovingkindness of God and repent and turn to Him.

How can people be so naive as to believe that religion will cure the world of its troubles? There are over 4 billion believers on this planet, and do we have peace? We have had nearly 2 millennia of christianity and has this produced a better world? If we had all lived for the last 2 millennia according to biblical views and beliefs, we would not have had modern science or technology, and would not have received the benefits from these, and consequently, would now be living in a world far worse than the one we live in now. Disease is by far the biggest killer of man throughout history. The conquest and control of disease is thanks to science, not religion.

We are, unfortunately, hardwired with the drive towards religion. It is part of the problem, certainly not a panacea. Just look at the Holy Land, how holy is that?

Anyone who believes in the garden of Eden; Adam and Eve; the resurrection; and all that other stuff that appears to be complete nonsense, is more likely to misunderstand the way the world works.

You are quite right. Religion has not cured the world, will not cure the world, and cannot cure the world. Faith in God is what the world needs, not religion. Perhaps it seems I am being picky about definitions, but I don't think being a Christian is religion. In fact, the word "religion" is used several times in the New Testament, but only one time is it used in a positive way. Being a Christian is believing what the Bible says about God, His sacrifice for us, and resurrection, and accepting the salvation He freely offers us.
I fail to see how following what the Bible says would prevent our modern technology.
Perhaps you are referring to the middle ages, when the Catholic Church controlled much of Europe. Yes, they did try to stop people like Galileo, but they were not following the Bible when they did that. Throughout its history the Roman Catholic Church has put Papal bulls, church traditions, and public opinion before the the Bible. Therefore you cannot blame the Bible for their teachings.
I find it interesting that scientist through history, such as Newton, Pasteur, and Boyle, believed in God. I am not certain that all these men were Christians, but their belief did not get in the way of their discoveries.
I also agree the Middle East is having a lot of problems. Jews and Gentiles both need to put their faith in Jesus Christ to be saved.
I am sorry you think Adam and Eve and the resurrection is nonsense. I think evolution is nonsense. And in the end, both the creationist and evolutionist need faith to believe what they believe. None of us was there when the world began. Yes, there are things such as fossil to use as evidences for a theory, but they are not proof. True science is to be based on observation.
And fossils are not good evidence for evolution. The dating methods(carbon 14, etc. can't remember all the names) have not proved reliable. Live shellfish have been tested by these methods, and should have been "millions of years old" according to the results.
In the end, you must have faith. I prefer to put my faith in God.

Well lots of good thoughts floating around on this thread. I'd like to point out two assumtions. 1) God is somehow not part of the natural world. 2) Not knowing what happens on the "other side" automatically equates to bad stuff. I simply don't think that man ever fell from heavens grip. Perhaps into heaven's waiting arms and having landed upside down does not yet realize know how blessed he is.

PS I think it was Mark Twain who made the quote about man being the only animal that need to blush. It is in fact a key line in the bible where God asks Adam. "Who told you that you were naked?" If I read this correctly, this is the transition from beast to man. I think that Adam and eve is just a story but that does not mean that there aren't some fun things to find in it.

Just thunk'n out loud!

Science is not all that unreliable, and it can, like in maths, even be 100% certain. It is necessary to distinguish between observation and empiricist truths and analytical, i.e. mathematical truths. The problem with observation is not so much the observation but the explanatory theories derived from it, they can, and often have been, erroneous. However, if you can back up your theory (like the theory of gravity) with maths, you can get to a point were your theory must hold, no matter what (if you haven't miscalculated). 2+2 is always 4, even God couldn't make it 5. And since he cannot, does he cease to be all powerful or is God maths incarnate? Everyone can know mathematical truths or such normative rules as "You shall not kill" even if they have never heard about any God whatsoever like the old taoists.
Observation has done a lot for human kind, we learned to make fire, started to build engines and invented viagra. What did, if you want to be really evil, the bible or similar literature do for us? Didn't it tell us too that people will be harassed by locusts, that there male firstborns will be killed, that blood-sacrifice (Abel) is better than plant-sacrifice (Cain), that the Lord can have fun playing april foolsday with you and your son (Abraham and Isaac), that if you want knowledge (which is certainly something you would want since God gave you a brain, didn't he) you are thrown out of the family home and that you can kill anyone who does not believe the same as you, thus defending Him who is a jealous God. Perhaps the Father sent the Son to correct his mistakes in the old testament. But then, the two are the same, plus the holy ghost of course. And if God made mistakes why would he be a better option than empiricist explanatory theories? They at least can explain WHY people shouldnt kill people in contrast to the ten commandment whose reasoning goes along the line of "because I said so".
I am all for evolution which contains the possibility of change for the better, because, as it is, it is not a pretty sight. (but an exciting one, I give you that)

hehe. always an interesting topic. there is too much for me to potentially write, so I will stick to a minimum. my views are, though confused, fairly simple. "God" [as the idea is called] and science [as the idea is called] are all but the same. We as human beings create these ideas in the same way as well. After all, we createdthe term and idea of God, jsut as we created numbers to so quaintly illustrate that 2 and 2 are 4. In terms of evolution vs creation, I have an even simpler answer. In my op., the Bible (regardless of its religious credibility) is a book of human experience and inspirational/pedagogical anectodes. There is no way that wht it writes existed in literal history, so it should not be treated as such. Just like you cannot dispute that 2 and 2 are 4, you cannot dispute that evolution in some form exists. Evolution DOES NOT say that man and monky are all but the same, hence there is nothing to worry about. If anything, evolution should be deemed positive in a religious individual's eyes--at least we're moving forward. Ah, that's all for now folks. --Alina

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Originally Posted by Thorwench

Science is not all that unreliable, and it can, like in maths, even be 100% certain. It is necessary to distinguish between observation and empiricist truths and analytical, i.e. mathematical truths. The problem with observation is not so much the observation but the explanatory theories derived from it, they can, and often have been, erroneous.

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Hi, Thorwench,
Here's an earlier post i posted about Science not being 100% reliable. I think it might interest you.

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By the way, science cannot PROVE anything. The only limitations of science are that it cannot prove anything, is NOT 100% reliable, and must conform to a scientific method. A scientist may come up with a theory, that "explains" evolution, while in the next moment, another scientist might come up with a counter-example, that contradicted the scientific experiment. Of course, we CAN use science to observe, and thus form conclusions, but what I'm trying to say is that even science is NOT 100% reliable, so it doesn't PROVE anything.

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Atiguhya Padma,

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Anyone who believes in the garden of Eden; Adam and Eve; the resurrection; and all that other stuff that appears to be complete nonsense, is more likely to misunderstand the way the world works.

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I'm sorry you think that way- but certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. :) For me however, the Bible has something to say about it.

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Perhaps after all I AM naive, but I think I prefer to be so in the eyes of the world than in the eyes of God. :nod:

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Just look at the Holy Land, how holy is that?

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If the Bible is true- let's just assume it is for a moment, then Israel is God's chosen people, and naturally Satan's enemy too. He would do all He can to destroy that country. Israel is beset on every side by enemies, all doing their best to wipe them out. Indeed, the Iranian President said so himself. Do you then think Israel would sit by watching themselves being wiped out? Of course not. If what you are referring to is their quarrels, fights, etc. Then don't you think they are forced to it? I do. That is what I think anyway.

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How can people be so naive as to believe that religion will cure the world of its troubles? There are over 4 billion believers on this planet, and do we have peace? We have had nearly 2 millennia of christianity and has this produced a better world? If we had all lived for the last 2 millennia according to biblical views and beliefs, we would not have had modern science or technology, and would not have received the benefits from these, and consequently, would now be living in a world far worse than the one we live in now. Disease is by far the biggest killer of man throughout history. The conquest and control of disease is thanks to science, not religion.

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Do you know- it's really interesting. I did a study about this subject not too long ago, and studies showed the complete opposite. I'll give you a brief overview and let you determine for yourself. When God gave the laws and regulations to Moses to pass on to the children of Israel in the desert, the children of Israel remained healthy. There is no mention of death in the Bible from diseases UNLESS Israel disobeyed God. Death and disease was used as a punishment. Many centuries later, in Europe, when the Bubonic plague broke out, many people died. In the eyes of the world, it was witchcraft- they believed it to be. This unknown disease, killing so many of their people. The people who didn't die from the plague were mostly Jews. They died for another reason- suspected practice of witchcraft. Because the Jews followed the sanitary and hygiene standards set by God, they were well protected and healthier than the average european who unknowingly promoted the spead of bacteria. The people thought the Jews were the ones who set this plague on them, because less of their people died than the others. So they burnt many
Jews at the stake for suspicion of witchcraft.

Obeying God's laws have their rewards. God knows best, and when He set certain rules, it is for our good that we follow them. Perhaps you should read Leviticus. It contains the laws of God. You will be surprised. God knew, and by His instructions, preserved many of His people- when they obeyed them. :)

Leviticus also contains that consequential (for the Brits at least) passage: and he who uncovers the nakedness of his brothers wife" and so forth,
I think you cannot take the bible literally, of course there was not much of the black death in Judaea, the conditions for rats spreading their fleas were not all that favourable to the rats as they were in medievial Europe. (the Romans had proper sewage systems, Renaissance London did not). I don't think you can take the Bible literally (although it IS literature, and very interesting literature indeed) but at the same time you cannot say that science cannot prove ANYTHING, this is clearly a false conclusion. It is certainly right that science cannot prove EVERYTHING, but "cannot prove ANYTHING" just does not follow. From "Socrates is a man" does likewise not follow "ALL men are Socrates". Science can prove that if you put certain chemicals together, heat is generated. You can prove it not only by measurement of temperature (this may count as an observation and you don't like them) but by formulae, i.e. by maths. Anyway, as I said, observation itself is quite a good tool and is, most of the time and for most of the people, pretty reliable. You see the hole in the ground and step around it, you see the sable-tooth tiger and take cover (i.e. you are not eaten), you observe that people get cramps and die after having eaten certain berries, so you tell your tribe not to eat them etc. Your tribe survives, others, who may not have been so attentive, do not. Humankind survived by observation even through ages where no one knew about any Christian or other single and sole God. They even survived on observation before they had a concept of GOD (since their language was not sufficiently developed to have such a concept). Man has always created theories/explanations that could make sense of what he observed. God is one of those, not more, but not less either. If this made sense or if this helped you to survive in a better condition than others, thats fine. (of course you say God wants you to be circumcised or not to eat pig-meat in hot climate, because that gives an authority to the rule it otherwise may not have). As an ancient Jew you couldn't say: you should be circumcised because it prevents germs lodging in your private parts. Those people didn't know that there was such a thing as germs).
What you do with your faith in God (or in anything else) or with science depends not on God or science, but on you. You can believe in God and in evolution, in humans decending from apes, monkeys, small mammals and, in the end, from clusters of carbohydrates. Is this not wonderful too? Is it not marvellous how nature works? I personally don't need a thinking, willing, all loving entity behind the theatre of the universe. If you do, ok, but you still are a highly organised cluster of carbohydrates who has a responsibility towards other highly organised clusters of carbohydrates.

Science and Religion are equally unreliable. I do not understand why you cannot, however, find them compatible. I work in a laboratory hehe. I can tell you that science solely allows humans to explain the human experience through calculable means. How would be have medicine without science? We need science to explore the depths of the human robot. Religion has been used as a replacement to science for thousands of years, meanwhile, it is still necessary to explain what science will never be able to. Hehe, science does not offer the meaning of life or its purpose, it just tried to explore every facet of our physical purpose. Now, if you want to go into the string theory, that is a different story. :)

oh btw i wrote a poem a while back, and i think it's oddly and amusingly fitting:

..."And I know I am able
To aid their poor plight
But God is Charles Darwin
And I’m a termite."

heh think about it.

oh I find them entirely compatible because religious truth has to do with believing whereas science at least makes an attempt at knowing. You can, I think, prove lots of thinks but you cannot prove the existence of God, that's why all proofs of God reek of doubt and scientific method. (there are some very beautiful ones though, like Anselm of Canterbury's: "and so we believe that nothing higher than thou is thinkable"). But, what I think this discussion of evolution vs. creation is asking is: Is Genesis true? The compatibility of religion and science requires that you don't take the Bible literally. And of course, science and religion are fruits of the same tree. The first shamans were proto-scientists since they too tried to find and to give a comprehensible explanation of phenomena observed. If, however, it would be required to take the bible literally to be a person who believes in God or who is a Christian, I would be a scientist (which I am anyway).

Hello there Thornwench,
Ahhh!(she screams in horror) MUST YOU MENTION MATH! I am just kidding. I wasn't crazy about math in school, but that's really not to the point.
I, and I hope most Christians, have nothing against science. I am not a scientist, but I think science is wonderful and is compatible with a literal interpretation of the Bible. I do have much against evolution. It is not nearly as scientific as it claims.
This is from Websters dictionary
science-1. a systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation.
I agree with your argument about maths to a point, but not completely. When God created the universe, he created the scientific laws that govern it.
I have more to say, but I have dishes to wash.