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Originally Posted by
Virgil
:lol: Lawrence had a bit of woman hating in him. :D
This is really simplifying Lawrence's idea of women...seriously. I see what you are getting at but inside my own head I don't really truly believe this after reading all I have about Lawrence. I think it was like the old adage with him: "You can't live with them and you can't live without". Even women say that. I know I do! Lawrence was screwed up from his mother - I have heard him say it himself, in autobiographical texts. He knew the score. I was just reading some of his letters and he knew he had this flaw. I believe this inner 'torment' followed him his whole life, and manifested itself in many of his stories and novels, but there usually is this pull either way. As we said before, in the beginning, he is making us sympathise with the woman, and then more so towards the man, at the end.
I would be angry also, if someone asked me "You mean the whole hogger?" - somehow that phrase would make me angry, too - because it sounds so insensitive and crude. When she answers him, do you think she is truly being honest, or is it a way to lash back at him? I think this complicated interchange of words and even expressions between them is just that - complicated and cannot be boiled down into a few words or ideas. It never is easy to explain a fight or altercation between the sexes - such as husband and wife, or even two lovers. These altercations, no doubt, in Lawrence books and stories have been debated for ages. We can never come up with a definitive answer on this idea of Lawrence hating women. I don't think he did. In his own mother's case, there is so much to debate. One thing is certain - feelings were strong both ways - he adored his mother and at the same time feared her control over his life. This can't be simplified and so it remains one of the basic fascinating factors of Lawrence.
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I think you've pointed out perfectly the biographical identifications in the story. And Lawrence did believe the man should be lord of the manor as you put it. The woman of the story is the type of woman Lawrenced blames for problems of the world. I know that's a big jump, and you don't get it in this story. But Lawrence believes that the psychological make up of people causes actions and events in the world and the psychology of the strong willed woman is what he blames for the world being screwed up. That's simplistic, but when you find a strong willed woman in a Lawrence short story, you ought to be suspicious.
Thanks, but truly it is not a 'simple' thing to analysis with Lawrence. He loved his wife dearly, but they often had to be appart and they both simmered at times. Frieda was very strong willed. I don't think that is correct at all; I don't believe he ever blamed the world for being screwed up by a strong willed woman. Let's fact it Lawrence was 'strong willed' himself! He had mixed feelings about women, even his close woman friends and he had tons of those. Read the letters! There is something about Lawrence that totally sympathises with women and taps into their inner psyches. It is never one way or the other, in his novels, that I can see. Nothing is black and white. I might want to post some excerpts about marriage from Kangaroo. I just read a whole section where the husband and wife - Richard (representing Lawrence) and Harriet (representing Frieda) were having much friction between them, and this was taken more from Richard's point of view on being married. You could read that and let me know what you think of his ideas. To me he is torn and in a turmoil about marriage, and yet it comes through loud and clear the two do love each other intensely. I might scan it, so give me some time.
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But the husband gives her her space. He lets her go off on her own all day, presumably not knowing that she was going to cheat on him (what would have happened if the old lover was not insane?), he lets her be in the bedroom while he makes dinner, and at every turn she sticks a stick in his side. She redicules him and acts so superior.
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I'm afraid I don't really see this. There isn't that much togetherness. Where is the husband being sufficating? He comes home and makes dinner. One would expect to sit at a table and have dinner together. Actually all she had to say is, not tonight, I don't feel well. But she doesn't. She Lords over him like a queen, something we can assume happens repeatedly.
In the beginning he is being so when he is persuming she will stick around with just him the whole day. I don't know what the rest of their marriage is like, or everyday how things are with them. He seems to want her attention and is annoyed when she is alone, even getting dressed or ready for the day. My god, women do need some time alone or to think without the husband wanting total togetherness. I know a couple just like this and the husband always demands the wife follow his time schedule and to be honest with you this marriage has a lot of strife and tension from this. The man does lord himself over the woman and she resents it. I can't help but see this is what is happening here.
Maybe later she is just demanding his letting her be alone - maybe she is saying it in a way makes you think she is a b*****. I don't really see this and like I said I think we should let this whole difference in opinion lay and forget it. We all seem to view the relationship different ways, maybe due to our own experiences which are playing into it.
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Well, I am Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :p :D
Don't I know it!;) With all my pacifist pep-talks. :lol: What was that you said awhile back that you and I never had a fight on here; also that this was one thread you never had a fight on? ;) :lol: We better keep it that way - "Peaceful".
