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Yes Yanni,
Associations between the life and career of the iconic G.F. Handel and the East India Company (British Empire) are of course pure coincidence. :smile5: As we see here with George Amyand.
I will send you a PM.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Asbestos was not available in West Indies at the time and as such it was a monopoly and there was great demand in ironworks/ arms manufacture (asbestos cloth aprons, gloves etc). They mined it from the Urals and had it shipped over from Saint Petersburg.
The date of George Amyand baronet creation is quite significant.
He seems to have cooperated with Handel/Bach for quite sometime (before 1750 anyway).
I have not looked at Amyand before. But I will do it now. Yes, there were numerous links between the British aristocracy and the careers of composers in continental Europe. I have seen no connection between Amyand and Handel and/or Bach. But will post what I find.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
When you do, bear in mind that "ab Amiantho"/baron "Alexander Stroganov" has already been clearly identified as baron* "Friedrich Melchior Grimm" and "Comte de Saint Germain". (Thus solving the minor matter of "Muslivecek", "Rosetti", "Gluck" identities thru Muslivecek's November 1773 staging of "Gluck's" Iphigenia: In Saint Petersburg.)
*as from 1771 by Kaiser Joseph II
Very interesting family, the 'Amyand' family. Here are some loose notes I've made on them yesterday - (and I am wondering if this family were once known as 'Hammond'. If so it gets really interesting).
1748 Chamberhouse Manor- estate was purchased by George Amyand, (a well-connected merchant who had been created a baronet in 1764). He built Crookham House on part of the property, and Chamberhouse Farm on the site of the old manor house. His son and heir, another Sir George, adopted the name Cornewall after marrying an heiress of that name in 1771, and moved to her house, Moccas, in Herefordshire.
One John Amyand in 1778 was a British government supplier to the Army during the American War of Independence
Banking account details survive of one John Amyand with Benson and Co dated 1777 (probably the same)
Claudius Amyand was Receiver-General of Rates for London and Westminster. Date ? At this time his affairs were dealt with by John Amyand. Claudius Amyand was brother to the knighted George Amyand.
A bond was issued to King George by John Amyand of £15,000 in July of 1773
In 1779 John Amyand (above) was being described as ‘City of London, merchant with Isaac Osborne of the same, merchant, both trading as Amyand and Co.
2nd Baronet and member of Parliament Sir George Amyand Cornewall (1748-1819)
On 26th June 1753 - In a letter from A. Castres in Lisbon to C. Amyand in London - a detailed account of one Carvalho * discussing local reactions to the Jewish Bill in Parliament, and his evaluation of reasons for the opposition to it among the merchants trading to Portugal at London and Lisbon.
Surviving Letter of 4th November 1752 from E. Hay in Lisbon to C. Amyand.
1751 letter from office of the Commissaries to Amyand who was at the time employed as Under-secretary, Southern Province, France.
1752 George Amyand - noted as a London supplier of hemp to the Royal Navy.
1753 Will of Mary Amyand, widow of Claudias Amyand
1740 Claudius Amyand, Principal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King
1753 A. Castres to C. Amyand. Lisbon. Some members of the East India have admitted illegal practices and applied through Carvalho * for pardon from the king
1694 Presentment of the homage at a court of survey, for the manors of Grove, Bredwardine and Radnor. 1684. - Bill of costs for a fine of Henry Cornewall esq. suggesting Amyand must take the name of Cornewall only, immediately after his marriage.
1767 Estate of the late Sir George Amyand including details of an account with Amyand, Rucker and Siebal, and with bankers Amyand, Staples & co
1758 Settlement and associated papers prior to the marriage between the Rev. Thomas Amyand and Frances Rider reference Bank of England stock - held at Norfolk Record Office
Upon the death of George, 6th earl of Northampton in 1758, his widow Frances became lady of the manor. In 1761 she married Claudius Amyand who is named as lord from 1762-65.
1724 Records of the Moccas Estate - Surviving Deed between Claudius Amyand and Sir John Frederick
1764 Surviving Account of Sir George Amyand of London, Bart, for expenses of maintaining 30 foot soldiers in the Kingdom of Ireland.. [Herefordshire Record Office
1766 Will of Sir George Amyand Carshalton, Surrey . Will of Sir George Amyand Carshalton, Surrey
1725 Will of one Auguste Amyand Wine Merchant Saint James's, Middlesex . Will of Auguste Amyand Wine Merchant Saint James's, Middlesex
1730 Will of Daniel Amyand Clerk Saint Martin in the Fields, Middlesex . Will of Daniel Amyand Clerk Saint Martin in the Fields, Middlesex
1733 Rent accounts kept by Joshua Spyers [agent for George Amyand],
and the earliest reference I can find -
Legal charges "laid out by Richard Haymonde for ye towne": Chancery, Exchequer, Star Chamber, Crown Office, Tower of London, trial of Amyand v. Bawden, 41 Elizabeth - 43 Elizabeth - (Include "searching in ye tower howe the town of Penzance shoulde be created a Borough towne wheather we might fynde oute any thing for our Porte"; "for searching for or olde charter in the Rolles for a coppye thereof" -
//
Note - An Amyand Park is still located in Twickenham south west London (close to where we know JC Bach lived for some time).
///
Reference to G.F. Handel - in the diary of Countess of Shaftsbury is an entry -
13 March 1753: I went last Friday to the opera Alexander's Feast, but it was such a melancholy pleasure as drew tears of sorrow to see the great tunehappy Handel dejected, wan and dark sitting nearby, not playing on the harpsichord, and to think how his light has been spent by being overply'd in musicks cause.
///
William C. Smith in a music journal article of 1953, 'Did Amyand have a house where Handel was accustomed to stay during his final years ?.''''" (He did have a seat in Carshalton, Surrey, 25 miles northwest from Tubridge Wells.') The question makes sense in light of Charles Burney's statement that 'during the last years of his life, he [Handel] constantly attended public prayers, twice a day, winter and summer, both in London and at Tunbridge Wells.''' Tunbridge Wells did have a sizeable chapel during Handel's lifetime, used since 1678 that offered daily services, and Handel's name even appears in its subscription list for the year 1755." This matches another (William Coxe's) report of an episodic visit of the composer and John Christopher Smith, Sr. to Tunbridge Wells 'about four years before Handel's death.''
All things considered, this is certainly a major family with close association to continental Europe and to the culture of the time. The connection with Handel is clear. So are the links his family had. He moved in the same circles as 'managers' of various composers of that time. I've no doubt Yanni that this family were connected with Handel's career. All the evidence says so.
Yanni,
I am very interested to know who * Carvalho * was refered to above. Any idea ? I have come across this name various times in connection with events as late as 1777/8. As for asbestos, I had no idea that it was widely used in antiquity. But your reference is interesting.
As for reference to things from Russia, the upper reaches of the Kama and Chusovaya in the Middle Urals were (I've just read) still unexplored in the late 16th century as well as parts of Transuralia that were still held by the Siberian Khanate and these were granted to the Stroganovs by several decrees of the tsar in 1558-1574.
Gerald Finzi (1901-56)
Eclogue for Piano and Strings
Op.10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIS6m...eature=related
R
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Having spend the better part of Sunday:
There are many indications leading to the conclusion that "Dr Claude Amyand" was an alias of Dr Antonio Cocchi, Benevento, 3 agosto 1695 – Firenze, 1º gennaio 1758 (also known in England as Anthony Cosein, Cousein, and Cosijn* who sold a Rembrand to Handel early 1750).
Many interesting side aspects result from this revelation that must be also examined.
My next post on the matter tomorrow.
Regards.
PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebasti...quis_of_Pombal
1757 The Portuguese Secretary of State, Sebastião José de Carvalho e Mello (the later Marquis de Pombal), called the French military “intolerably arrogant,abusing the laws of hospitality”.
*Feb 6th Anthony Cosein’s sale http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1750.htm
Joseph Goupy and George Frideric Handel: From Professional ... - by ET Harris - 2008
Handel bought a painting attributed to Rembrandt),43 and Sir William Morice (whose ... ments Cosein, Cousein, and Cosijn. ...caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/hlq.2008.71.3.397
Here is a summary of re evidence:
Besides their common profession (both surgeons, pioneers in inoculation), both highly esteemed and trusted by European royalty, both sharing the same acquaintances (such as Algarotti-Montagu-abbe Galiani-Philip Mazzei-R.Mead etc etc) , both librarians (Cocchi looking after the sale of Micheli library 1737, Claudius jr(??) appointed librarian to the King’s Cottonian 1745*), both obviously well aquainted with the royal musicians (librarians-pages) of previous posts (Gioachino Cocchi, JCBach, Nicolay, comte de Saint Germain and Gluck),
.....the main proof they were the same person are their complimentary timelines with Dr Claudius in England till 1723, Cocchi appearing shortly in Mugello...
dopo un lungo giro in Inghilterra tornando al paese natio accolto in trionfo http://www.ilfilo.net/massmug0908.htm
...to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1736 to Florence, then back in London 1736 via France (where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London sometime before 1740 when Claudius Amyand was appointed Princiipal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King, only to die that very same year according to The Cambridge History of Medicine, his place next to the King taken by his alleged son Claudius Amyand jr (born the same year- 1818- as Thomas Amyand who however seems to be a different person than Thomas-Hans (1728 born Thomas Hans AMYAND c.15 May. Claudius AMYAND/Mary RABACHE, St.Anne. )
And there is of course Alexander S.Stroganov and his asbestos mine in the Urals supplying, as George Amyand, - noted as a London supplier of hemp to -the Royal Navy in 1752.
*Within days of Gluck/Saint Germain's release (after arrest for spying), 8 December 1745.
Claudius Amyand
He described himself as “of St Martin in the Fields” in his will (Prob 11/703, 9 July 1740). He does not appear to have had direct connection with the area ofTwickenham, but his descendants lent the family name to a house, a road (Amyand Park Road), a row of cottages (Amyand Cottages) and a Baptist Chapel (Amyand Park Chapel) there. Strafford Road nearby was known as Amyand Road until 1878.
Claudius Amyand was officially the son of George, ‘of a Huguenot family from Mornac in Xaitonge, France‘, was naturalised at Westminster on 9 September 1698. He became a surgeon at St George’s Hospital in London, served with the army in Flanders during the War of the Spanish Succession and was appointed Sergeant-Surgeon (Surgeon in Ordinary) to George I in 1715, a post he held subsequently under George II for the rest of his life.
As a surgeon he is remembered for performing the first successful appendicectomy, in 1735, on an 11 year old boy whose appendix was perforated by a pin which he must have swallowed. He also lent his name to a rare condition known as Amyand’s hernia, a rare form of inguinal hernia which occurs when the appendix enters and becomes contained in the hernia. In 1722 he carried out the vaccination of Princess Caroline's children. Lady Mary Wortley Montagu had interested Caroline, Princess of Wales, in the procedure: she arranged the famous experiment on prisoners in Newgate Gaol before permitting the treatment for her children.
Amyand married Mary Rabache on 6 November 1717 at St Benet Paul’s Wharf, London and they had six daughters and three sons, Claudius, George, and Thomas. Claudius (1718-74) became Keeper of the King's (Cottonian) Library in 1745 and in 1747 entered Parliament as M.P. for Tregony in Cornwall, holding the seat until 1754. From 1754 until 1756 he was M.P. for Sandwich. A supporter of the Duke of Newcastle, he became his Under-secretary of State, a post which he held under successive administrations until 1756. On 26th November 1761, he married Frances, widow of George Compton, 6th Earl of Northampton, so becoming Lord of the Manor of Long Sutton. He is noted as a resident of West Sheen in Surrey. His portrait was painted by Thomas Gainsborough.
Amyand’s second son, George (1720-66), was the Member of Parliament for Barnstaple between 1754 and 1766, an assistant to the Russia Company in 1756, became a director of the East India Company in 1762 and was created a Baronet in 1764. His daughter, Anna Maria married Sir Gilbert Elliot, 1st Earl of Minto. His son, George changed his name to Cornewall, becoming the 2nd Baronet of that name.
///
Also -
1752 - Letter G. Crowle in Portugal to C. Amyand. Refers to visits from the Lord-Proprietor and his Governor of the island of Principe, with the possibility of clandestine British slave-trade there.
1758 - Letter from Munchausen to West informing him of the commission charged by Messrs. Magens and Amyand on bills of exchange. And on forces in Germany: Munchausen to West informing him of commission charged by Messrs. Magens and Amyand on bills of exchange.
/
July 1758 - HM Treasury - Memo reference forces in Germany: - to Lord Newcastle giving details of the proposals for remitting money to Germany by Messrs. Magens and Amyand, Mr. Gore, Mr. Touchet, and Messrs. Claremont and Linwood.
//
1763 - Extract from 'Paris Gazette', casting doubts on the solvency of Amyand's company.
//
1766 - Treasury Memo of Sir George Amyand and others, requesting General Luckner's claim be dealt with in Germany of papers that had been presented to them in January 1764. (Nikolaus, Count Luckner (* 12 January 1722 - 4 January 1794 in Paris) was a German in French service who rose to become a Marshal of France. (His name is spelled Nicolas in French, Nikolaus in German). Luckner grew up in Cham, in eastern Bavaria and received his early education from the Jesuits in Passau
/
And now - :smile5:
Partita 1
Gigue
Rosalyn Tureck (1961) - American pianist and harpsichordist - specially associated with the work of J.S. Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klDQL...eature=related
August 1st, 1758: George Amyand, Magen, Blackwell amd Barton are trustees to a loan of 200000 pounds to George II. (Amyand participating with 15000 pounds).
(The London magazine, or, Gentleman's monthly intelligencer, Vol 27 by Isaac Kimber,Edward Kimber.)
My notes on Amyand family are some seven A4 pages, Robert, and the only reason I quoted the above is to highlight the fact that George Amyand, elder son of Dr Claudius, born 26 September 1720, was extremely wealthy already, long before his marriage to the Cornewalls (linked to Lord Cornwallis??).
Your post does nothing, like supplying contradictory evidence ie, to my summary and conclusions above and the main question remains who of the two, George or Claudius jr, are Gioachino Cocchi, bearing in mind that Dr Claudius did not die in 1740.
Regards.
PS The first appendectomy took place 1736 in France! http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/shakers/timeline/
I have not supplied contradictory evidence to your idea. Nor did I try to. I have supplied instead various references to that family. Please summarise your idea on the relevance of Amyand for all of us, so we can have a clear record of what you are saying.
You seem to be saying either (and/or) George or Claudius Amyand were none other than G. Cocchi. Although (at the same time) you believe one or either of these same Amyrands was a Russian nobleman. Thus (unless I am mistaken) you believe G. Cocchi was a Russian nobleman - possibly Baron Stroganov ? Unless I am confused ?? If, however, Baron Stroganov was actually Baron Grimm, then, I confess, the aliases are again starting to confuse me. We await your next post with interest.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
In view of my own links to the accused, I let other "victims"-"judges" draw conclusions, limiting* my role to presentation of facts.
Such as:
Claudius Amyand, 1718-1774, junior, the Librarian, if that’s the word for it, became Keeper of the King’s Library (the Cottonian) in 1745. In 1750 he was under-secretary of state.He was made a Commissioner of Customs in 1756 and his name remains in the list of commissioners until 1765** when he received the appointment of Receiver-General of the Land Tax for Middlesex, London and Westminster. What we learn of him as librarian is very little.
As I have mentioned, he was appointed Library Keeper in December 1745; according to the civil list accounts for 1763 he received a salary of £200 and £100 for the rent of a house. He is also shown as “Keeper of His Majesty’s Library called the Cotton” at £100 in 1748. John Brooke states: “Under King George II Claudius Amyand had been appointed Keeper of His Majesties Libraries at £200 a year. This was a nominal office (the King did not care for books and presented his library to the British Museum), and was used to provide retirement pay for a former under-secretary of state. King George III,who did care for books, appointed his own librarian and paid him a salary out of the Privy Purse, thus paying for two librarians and receiving service from only one.” It is clear that Amyand was the one who gave no library service and one can only speculate asto the thoughts of Maty and Rimius when they surveyed the ottonian for the British Museum in 1756 (as above)!
http://archive.ifla.org/IV/ifla69/pa...58e-Massil.pdf
Nov. 8, 1745 Royal letters patent by writ of Privy Seal. Claudius Amyand, Keeper of the King s Libraries within the kingdom of England, loco Richard Bentley (son of Richard Bentley, D.D.), who was thereto appointed by letters patent, dated Westminster, 1724–5. March 11: the said Richard Bentley, the son, having by an instrument under his hand dated 1745, Oct. 28, and duly enrolled in Chancery, surrendered the said office: all with the annuity or annual fee of 200l., payable quarterly.King's Warrant Book XXXVI. pp. 226–7.
From: 'Warrants for Minor Appointments: 1745', Calendar of Treasury Books and Papers, Volume 5: 1742-1745 (1903), pp. 837-848. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=92087 Date accessed: 11 October 2010.***
(Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.
St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole says
He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible.
"Gluck" was there at the time, "Cocchi" was still offlimits apparently, possibly due to Dr Claudius Cocchi's other marriage(s) in Prussia or Naples.
Regards.
*Minor exception to own rule allowed: It certainly looks like Cocchi/Amyand acted then just like an IMF director does today: Helping countries along their way to default (thus controlling them, often one against another-in Cocchi/Amyand's case only, naturally!).
**You never answered my question on Cornwallis-Cornewall, so I'll do it myself: Minor google search produced no link but did not expect to find any(other than a simultaneous 1761 appointment of both in his Majesty's administration). History's "best" parts are never made public. So I'll answer it indirectly only through Pietro Metastasio to the Chevalier de Chastellux, Vienna, 15 July 1756 :“Your Highness ... I have made every effort to restore music to its true role of serving the poetry by means of its powers of expression...”
***My compliments to the keeper of http://www.british-history.ac.uk. There is hope!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2gvqzXRU0
Minor improvement to timeline summary of post 247 above, courtesy of Handel/Bach:Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Previous text: ....to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1736 to Florence, then back in London 1736 via France (where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London sometime....
Corrected : ....to return again 1723-1726 to London with Lord Hastings, stay there as Dr Claudius to 1731, return 1732-1734 to Florence to join the British Lodge there , then back to London January 31, 1735 (to be present undoubtably in The Annual Feast of the Sons of the Clergy, Feb8th-13th, and opera perfomances of Handel's Ariodante Feb 12th and Porpora's Oratorio, David, Feb 24th) stay there until, propably,February 1736*,then back to Florence for his nomination "lettore di Anatomia nello Studio Fiorentino" and the honour of carrying with remains of Galileo to the Basilica of Santa Croce, March 12th, 1736, then back to London (via France,where he performed the first successful appendectomy) together with Algarotti**, back again to Florence mid 1737 to late 1737, to return to London....
...early enough for Faramondo (HWV 39) [KT], January 3rd, 1738 and stay there and around until 1740, when Claudius Amyand was appointed Princiipal and Serjeant Surgeon to His Majesty the King, only to die that very same year according to The Cambridge History of Medicine, his place next to the King taken by his alleged son Claudius Amyand jr (born the same year- 1818- as Thomas Amyand who however seems to be a different person than Thomas-Hans (1728 born Thomas Hans AMYAND c.15 May. Claudius AMYAND/Mary RABACHE, St.Anne. ) ) Allegedly!!!
Looks like Dr Claudius Amyand/Antonio Cocchi was extremely fond of Handel/Bach's music and most propably of Telemann's too!!
As for Handel himself , yes, he was absent from London the second half of 1737!
And
In the summer of 1741 Handel, depressed and in debt, began setting Charles Jennens' Biblical libretto to music at a breakneck speed.[2] Allegedly!!
http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1735.htm
*Handel's oratorio "Alexander's feast" premiered at the Covent Garden Theatre, London on 19 February 1736.
**Who, after joining the RS in 1736, publishes his "Newtonism for ladies" in Milan 1737.
:Angel_anim: of Music History
I'm struggling to see the relevance of this Yanni. Claudius Amyrand, surgeon to the King of England is, you say Antonio Cocchi. Great. But Antonio Cocchi was a not a composer. He was a surgeon. The composer named Cocchi (Gioacchino Cocchi) died in 1796. Antonio Cocchi (1695-1758) was a different and earlier person. Yes ?
You write, 'It looks like Dr Claudius Amyand/Antonio Cocchi was extremely fond of Handel/Bach's music and most propably of Telemann's too!!''
Great !! I haven't seen any evidence of this. Do you have some ?
Antonio Cocchi (the surgeon) was connected to the highest levels of English society. We know this. It is not a secret. It has not been a secret for 250 years.
You wrote on an earlier post - (No.249) -
George or Claudius jr, are Gioachino Cocchi, bearing in mind that Dr Claudius did not die in 1740.
!!!
So, according to you, George or Claudius Amyand, are one and the same person as Antonio Cocchi and (later) G. Cocchi ?
I would be specially interested for evidence that Amyand was interested in the music of J.S. Bach and Handel.
As for Baron Stroganov, where does he fit in ???
Yours confusedly
Robert
Have you never heard of music's contribution to healing or of doctors-musicians, starting with "Apollo, Giver of Music & Medicine" (healingmusicenterprises.com/Apollo.html)?
One of Dr Amyand/Cocchi's sons, George or Claudius jr, is propably Gioachino Cocchi, where is the problem for you to understand and why do you then confuse the sons with their father?
To see "where Baron Stroganov fits in?" all you have to read my writings on him.
Try googling for "Stroganov-comte de Saint Germain-Rousseau"!
I am confusing you and music history is not?
That's strange!
I have certainly heard of music's contribution to healing and of doctor/musicians. The confusion comes when you expect people to follow the aliases of your ideas.
There WAS a mafia controlling the cultural side of what we call the 'Enlightenment'. We both seem to agree about this fact. Don't we ? And yes, they (its members) did use aliases. We seem to both agree about that. In fact, this is why we are in conversation about it. We may even agree various Cocchis were involved in this process. Over generations. Which is what I have said all along. Isn't it ? In fact, the mafia which invented the career of W.A. Mozart included G. Cocchi. And I have said so from the very start. Haven't I ?
The confusion begins where you say -
One of Dr Amyand/Cocchi's sons, George or Claudius jr, is propably Gioachino Cocchi
OK, if one of Dr Amyand's sons is really the musician Gioachino Cocchi what was the relationship between Antonio Cocchi (surgeon) and the later Gioachino Cocchi (musician) ?? Do tell us. With some evidence.
I have also said from the start that Amyand may be an alias. I have no difficulty in this. The problem is where you say Gioachino Cocchi (composer) is 'probably' one of Dr Amyand's sons but cannot tell us which one. And nor can you tell us of the relationship between Antonio Cocchi and G. Cocchi.
Unless/until these things are clarified you cannot blame me or anyone else for thinking an entire class of aliases were controlling culture. And that music and musical achievement are a completely different subject. Which is my own view of things.
You seem to be confusing a cultural mafia with the good guys. The actual composers.
At least, that's how it reads to me.
It remains my position that the musical history conventionally given to us was made/published/invented by the very people you are researching. We should not confuse these two different things. They are distinct and separate. One is a pseudo-history and the other is the real. None of these people you are researching actually did anything. They were occultists and con-men of fraternities. Managing the cultural deception. Supported by elites. Who arranged to have manufactured (as I am continually saying) the bogus reputations of many 'great' composers.
But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach. They were as said so often involved in something else - in making the bogus careers of iconic men such as G.F. Handel, W.A. Mozart, J. Haydn and others.
If your position can be clarified with some firm statements on who was really who our conversation becomes more easy. But until we agree about these basic things we tend to confuse others. I don't want to confuse anyone. That is why I am asking you to clarify your statements. And if there is something you do not understand of my position, just ask it and I will happily provide it.
In a world of deception there has to be a real. And there really IS Yanni. There IS !!
Robert Schumann
Concerto in A Minor
3rd Movement
Soloist - Dinu Lipatti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BscnhydK9s8&feature=fvsr
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
But there is no evidence (and you have provided none) that Amyand or Cocchi were involved in the genuine musical career of J.S. Bach.
Haven't I?
You obviously forget my repeated references to JS's first "inventors", "Wieland" (Rousseau-Gioac.Cocchi) and Marpurg(another puzzle), Johann Sebastian Koch, JSBach's "choirprefect" (that's the basic role of Kappelmeister, isn't it?), G.Cocchi/Saint Germain/Giovannini's footprints on Mrs Bach's buchlein, Handel/Bach's 1741 first visit to Berlin* (while depressed, propably because his wife had been ill) etc etc.
What I did not openly say in previous is my conclusion , based on a multitude of indications all leading to the same end, that Handel/Bach and Dr Aymand/A.Cocchi were one and the same (Gioachino Cocchi/Gluck/Rousseau etc then-1750's-taking over the "healing process").
Now I did and you are wellcome to provide evidence to the contrary.
*Cocchi/Koch/Bach/Handel was in Berlin (August 9) because the laying of the foundation stone of the first Berlin Opera was celebrated, September 5th, on the former Cocceji Palais, 5, Unter den Linden, with the inscription:
FridericusII. Rex Borussorum Ludis Thaliae et Melpomenes Sororum Sacra Heac Fundamina.Ponit Anno MDCCXLI die quinto Septembris .
No sooner is the water becoming clear than you muddy it again !
Yanni believes J.S. Bach, and G.F. Handel, and surgeon Dr Amyand, and the surgeon Antonio Cocchi were all the same person !!! A feat of social engineering and a cultural feat greater than BBC world service radio ?
Please (at the third time of asking) do you believe G. Cocchi was the son of the above Antonio Cocchi ? You appear to have ignored this question of mine. And without an answer I do not wish to go round and round in the spin dryer.
As for your 'proofs' concerning JS Bach, they are nothing of the kind.
You make the most unfounded and generalised statements. But the specifics are all missing. One line 'proofs' with no real evidence. And what, exactly, is the 'proof' Handel and Bach were the same man ? None whatsoever. Their lives and their entire musical output is totally different.
Try this Yanni. One teaspoon only. Realise that one of these (Bach and Handel) is a manufactured composer and the other is a real composer. Does that help ? Does this sound like Handel to you ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_...eature=related
Q. 'And, Robert, what do you consider your greatest achievement in musical research to be' ?
A. 'Sir, I consider my greatest achievement was to make Yanni listen to a Bach concerto'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Yes I do believe Gioachino Cocchi was closely related to Antonio Cocchi (married not just to Gaetana Debi, Orsola Piombanti and his -third-english wife), propably his son by a fourth "wife" in Prussia or Naples, but alternatively could have been a nephew, so what?
The contents of my previous have increased in the meantime, absorb them at your leisure and then try to prove me wrong!
Courage!
OK, so you believe G. Cocchi was 'probably' closely related to Antonio Cocchi (and you give us the usual set of choices).
When I press you on this point you ask 'So what' ? The 'so what' is you simply do not know. And Yanni, not knowing of the real relationship between A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi 'knows' that J.S. Bach was G.F. Handel. And this is why people find your posts bewildering. You are literally swimming in a sea of probabilities. Why not start off with established facts ?
How about this one ? It is an established fact Antonio Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with the British government and with other governments of his time. And that G. Cocchi was an occultist with very high level contacts with governments of his own time. Since they were both occultists with high level contacts with governments of their own times they were involved in the same occultism. A occultism which had great influence within those governments and in higher levels of society during their respective times. Whether they had three or twenty aliases.
And what, exactly, does that have to do with the history of music ? You never tell us. Because, Yanni, somebody had to write the music. And it was not written by A. Cocchi or G. Cocchi. Was it ?
This leads me to believe A. Cocchi and G. Cocchi were members of an occultist network whose influence was so great in the 18th century they were involved in overseeing the creation of false reputations of various men (including major composers and scientists) as part of their occultist careers.
Have I said this before ? Yes, I think I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
When Handel/Bach/Amyand/A.Cocchi first visited Berlin August 1741 for the founding of the Berlin Opera, Samuel Cocceji/Koch had returned from Silesia and was on his way to become Reichchancellor and Christian Johann Kochius was appointed "Oberhoffprediger am Dom" ( ie Kaiser Fritz wanted to keep his new roman catholic subjects happy!)
Instead of the usual silly noises, Robert , why don't you finally accept my repeated offer to challenge my timeline on Handel/Bach, now enriched with Dr C.Amyand/A.Cocchi?
All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!
Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?
Courage!
Yanni,
Thank you for inviting me to take up your 'poisoned chalice' (oops, extravagant offer !) of showing that G.F. Handel/J.S. Bach/Amyrand and Antonio Cocchi were not always in the same place at the same time. I accept your offer. But before I post to show it is nonsense you might consider the following -
I have a friend who grows potatoes and carrots, onions and cabbages. No matter how often he plants cabbages they attract butterflies. And if he grows beetroots they always seem to attract ants. He is careful against this of course but the same thing always happens.
I think we can say the same thing of human history. That wherever there is something worthy taking place we will find things that are unworthy. One could visit a coronation and find notices warning us against pickpockets, for example. Wherever there is reality we will find things not real. So I'm not surprised Cocchis, and Casanovas, and Amyrands and Barons, Counts, Popes, Cardinals, etc. are often extremely interested and have their own people actively pursuing their own agendas when other events more worthy of our attention are happening.
The opening of the Berlin opera in August 1741 attracted many music lovers from all over Germany. And the Olympic Games in London in 2012 will no doubt attact millions from all over the world. The arrival of visitors to London during 2012 will not prove, however, that Yanni and myself are one and the same person. Not even if we are able to be proved present there. Nor will they prove Yanni, myself and other readers of this thread are one and the same person. Even if all are sufficiently interested in the subject to be present at the 2012 Olympic Games.
As to your view that J.S. Bach, G.F. Handel, Amyand (who has multiple personality disorder), and Cocchi (who also has multiple personality disorder) were one and the same person (and thus in one time and space always) I will answer you later. So we can see this to be one of your more extreme but harmless exaggerations.
Berlin Philharmonic Wind Soloists - Tango
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9ba...eature=related
Regards
///Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
G.F. HANDEL
1707 -- G.F. Handel arrives in Italy
1710 -- Handel's first visit to London
1711 -- First London opera, Rinaldo
1712 -- Handel’s Second visit to London and remains
J.S. BACH
1710 - Birth of Bach's second child, Wilhelm Friedemann, born, 22nd November. (W.F. Bach was therefore conceived around 9 months earlier, in February of 1710, in Weimar).
//
1713 - JS Bach visits Weissenfels in February. Birth of his third and fourth children (twins), that same year - Johann Christoph and Maria Sophia, born 23rd February, and died, 23 February and around 13th March respectively. (Conceived around 9 months earlier). Bach competes for organist's post at Halle in December of that same year of 1713.
//
Clear ‘proof’ JS Bach and GF Handel must be the same man, yes ??
Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman):
Handel/Bach is on record as first visiting London sometime around November- December 1710, allowing him to father WH and several more children in Weimar, Feb 1710.
Same for the twins, born Feb, 1713, ie conceived June-July 1712:
He is on record, 1712, as Autumn : Receives permission from the Elector of Hanover to return to London "on condition that he return within a reasonable time." Early October : Returns to London for next opera season -- stays with "Mr. Andrews of Barn-Elms" (now Barnes, in Surrey)...
With regard to his (Bach's) 1713 dates (Febr./Weissenfels, Dec./Halle), there is nothing contradictory either: After Swiney's departure to Italy with the cash of Teseo's first performance Jan 10th, 1713, there is nothing on record indicating GFH stayed behind in London.He IS on record however as GFH is dismissed from Hanoverian post in May whereas on 28th December 1713 Queen Anne grants GFH a pension of £200 per annum.She is suffering from porfyria (dies 1 August 1714) and as such his recall to duty in London is on purely medical grounds, hence "Te deum", October, 1714, was staged only in the year!! http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm
Consequently, Dr Claudius/Handel/Bach/Cocchi/Amyand was appointed Sergeant-Surgeon (Surgeon in Ordinary) to George I in 1715.
Try harder next time, Sir Robert, else say goodbye to your Holy Grail!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
Thank you for the suggestion I try harder to disprove your quartet theory.
I aim to disprove it with ever more simple (and not complicated) arguments. Since you are convinced 4 different men were one and the same man. I started doing so in my last post by examining only two of this imaginary 'quartet', J.S. Bach and G.F. Handel. It is not a good idea to multiply entities un-necessarily.
(Yanni will no doubt become more and more complicated in his arguments. But it does not matter which method of argument he decides to use).
Here is my second post. I will answer you in ever more simple ways while you will no doubt post in more complicated ways.
Let me begin by quoting the first sentence of your last post. Here is what you wrote - (and I will quote precisely) -
''Your timeline is anything but convincing that, between 1707-1710, Handel never had the time to visit Weimar February 1710 (to father Wilhelm Friedman'')
In reply to which -
Yanni, do you not know human births occur around 9 months after conception ? Human births do not take several years. So your first sentence is really an irrelevance. Isn't it ? Nobody is saying GF Handel never had time to visit Weimer between 1707 and 1710. Are they ? Not I nor you. The issue is whether G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. If G.F. Handel was the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach he must surely have been in Weimar around 9 months before the birth of Wilhelm Friedman Bach. Yes ?
So your first sentence is meaningless. It is irrelevant.
We can ask, what evidence, if any, shows G.F. Handel was in Weimar around February of 1710 ?
I think you should also consider the following -
G.F.Handel came to London in 1710 and worked for the Hanover government during the transition period and directly for Queen Anne from 1712 onwards. Which is what I have always suggested. (That Handel's musical career was manufactured). Something I have said here numerous times. This view (of Handel being an agent for the court of Hanover in London and a fraud). It is (you surely agree) my view and is even consistent with what has been written by Handel's biographer Jonathan Keates. See here (bottom of the page Item 14) -
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk
As said from the start, few things are real in the 'history of music'. But I encourage you in discovering what is real and what is fiction. Handel did NOT write the music of J.S. Bach. Nor did he even write 'his own'. But you may find this true quicker than we find your proofs of one man being 4 different men. Handel was recruited before he ever left Germany. He was a recruited man in Rome and in Venice. And he arrived in London as a recruited man. He remained a recruited man during his entire London career. That is my view.
To remind you of the challenge you accepted, here is what it looked like (my post #260) :
All you have to do is prove that any of them, at any time, was at a different place than any other!
Such a simple exercise is more deserving for your beloved Bach, don't you think?
So far you have failed!
And your evidence GF Handel was in Weimar around February 1710 is what, precisely ?
Early in 1710 Handel left Italy
Spring of 1710 Handel arrives at the Court of Hanover
June 16th 1710 Handel is appointed Kapellmeister to George, Elector of Hanover (soon to be King of Britain)
September 1710 Handel leaves Hanover and arrives in London for the first time
Thus, if G.F. Handel is the father of Wilhelm Friedman Bach (which the birth certificate refuses to say) he, GF Handel, must have been in Weimar between leaving Italy and him arriving in Hanover in the spring of that year of 1710. But there is no evidence GF Handel was in Weimar in 1710. This is a small problem of yours. But Yanni will produce evidence of this for us. Right Yanni ?
S. Taylor: '''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers'' (Cambridge, 1906/R)
Or, to put it another way -
‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’
(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after Handel had acquired a substantial number of more musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni. The same Cardinal Ottoboni who (with 4 other cardinals) had patronised Handel while he was in Rome and Venice.
And, of a similar kind -
Dionigi Erba. His name is remembered mainly because of a Magnificat for two choirs, oboe, strings and organ that was once mistakenly attributed (by Robinson) to GF Handel. It is, however, by Erba, though Handel did make a copy of it (now in GB-Lbl) and borrowed copiously from it in his Oratorio 'Israel in Egypt', in, for instance, the double chorus ‘The depths have covered them’.
Etc etc etc.
We must therefore conclude the Milan composer Dionigi Erba (who died in 1730) was still another alias for G.F. Handel/aka J.S. Bach aka akakakakakakakaka, And now we have at least a 'quintet', yes ?
Have I really failed to make Yanni hear this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_...eature=related
Regards
R
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Silly noises can't cover the sound of your crash.
Try one more, any date that suits you!
While Yanni is still searching for some evidence of GF Handel being in Weimar in early 1710 (and of being the father of one of the children of JS Bach) here is a short musical interlude -
J.S. Bach
Fugue on a Theme in A Major by T. Albininoni
BWV 950
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU_ti...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Your higher chakras need urgent tuning!
And now some verses by a worthy bard seeking their music.
(One could also see it as the first ever poem praising usur..errrr... banking)
The Ghost by Charles Churchillhttp://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...me-3-ruh.shtml
(extract on Amyand)
The independent Amyand came,
All burning with the sacred flame
Of liberty, which well he knows
On the great stock of slavery grows,
Like sparrow, who, deprived of mate
Snatch'd by the cruel hand of Fate,
From spray to spray no more will hop,
But sits alone on the house-top ;
Or like himself, when all alone
At Croydon, he was heard to groan.
Lifting both hands in the defence
Of interest, and common sense ;
Both hands, for as no other man
adopted and pursued his plan,
The left hand had been lonesome quite,
If he had not held up the right :
Apart he came, and fix'd his eyes
With rapture on a distant prize,
On which, in letters worthy note,
There, twenty thousand pounds, was Wrote.
False trap, for credit sapp'd is found
By getting twenty thousand pound
Nay, look not thus on me, and stare.
Doubting the certainty — to swear
In such a case I should he loath —
But Perry Gust may take his oath.
etc etc
J.S. Bach (1685-1750) fathered 20 children over 2 marriages. Can you please check your timeline for the life of G.F. Handel and name even one of these who may have been fathered by G.F. Handel ? Since the documentary record shows they were fathered by J.S. Bach. With a choice of 20 babies to choose from you can surely come up with a better result than last time, yes ?
In the meantime -
BWV 248
Sanfte soll mein Todeskummer
Fritz Wunderlich (Tenor)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO2tuSSisRA
Baron Dimsdale, a reputable doctor, expert inoculator and visitor of Russia, a quaker and a banker too, was one of Handel/Bach/Amyand/Cocchi children (or so it seems to me, anyway).
Pity Baron Thomas-Hans's biography* is hard to find, even if he was one of the founders of RBS. Must be buried somewhere** under their dusty archives.
http://heritagearchives.rbs.com/wiki...n%2C_1759-1891
I just love british poetry, btw, particularly that on musiciens-warmongering banksters-inoculators/spermdonnors-first socialists/liberators-new truth inventors- assasins!
On this respect, readers are kindly requested to contribute any verse available on Lord Cornwallis' friendhip with the marquis de Chastellux-Cornwall.
Much obliged!
*The barony had been conferred by Catherine the Great on Thomas Dimsdale, an ancestor, who had inoculated her son against smallpox. (see "Alexander S.Stroganov")
**The Dimsdale 18th century archives are incomplete and held at The National Westminster Bank ('Benjamin Collins and the provincial newspaper trade in the eighteenth century' by Christine Y. Ferdinand)
J.S. Bach
Duet
Cantata
BWV 3/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGq3J...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
A lot of music that helps us experience, heal and release the spiritual kundalini energy of our 7 chakras is being created today; but Bach was there first! His Toccata in F is the most powerful and vivid musical experience of the chakras ever created, or that ever will be. It is also a key to all the esoteric mysteries: tarot, chakra system, kundalini, alchemy, astrology, kabbalah, sacred geometry and proportions, and more.
You may also try yogurt if yoga fails!
Coming back to Bach/Amyand/Handel/Cocchi:
He never really died in 1750,1740,1759 or 1758:
Maria Theresa had him chasing around for Vampires in Moravia around 1745-1760(allegedly), while also asking him to reform the Viennese medical system-taking it away from the jesuits-and to assume censorship control of Austria, till he finally died in 1772.
As Gerard van Swieten, he was of great service to her as her personal physician from earlier on (1736), apparently :
Praeterea censeo,vulvam sacratissime Majestatis,ante coitum diutius esse titiblandam
She then gave birth to some sixteen children!
Did he also treat her father, emperor Charles VI who died an early death, October 1740, perhaps poisoned by mushrooms?
Handel's slopy and flopy Imeneo may provide the answer, when examined together with Dr Claudius Amyand's sudden 1740 "dissappearance" to a better world.
Thank you Yanni,
Your last posts remind me of the scene in Kubrick's '2001 - A Space Odessy' in the sense that information (rather than answers to questions and discussions on their relevance) would resolve the question of whether G.F. Handel was father of the 20 children attributed to J.S. Bach. And not discussions on other diversionary issues. Still, we tried, right, Yanni ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwBmPiOmEGQ
Thank you for inviting me to take up your 'poisoned chalice' (oops, extravagant offer !) of showing that G.F. Handel/J.S. Bach/Amyrand and Antonio Cocchi were not always in the same place at the same time. I accept your offer.
apparently yogurt has failed to deliver, no kundalini has been released!
Have you tried Kellog's method?
Yes, Yanni. I had Kellog's cornflakes this morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A86e...eature=related
(Angela Hewitt lives in London. She has recently made some recordings of Bach transcriptions that are wonderful. Here is one of them).
Right Kellogg, wrong method, no kundalini.
Har, har, har, Wahe!
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=_4xl_4...eature=related
Anna Mailian
Sharakan
Manuscript Music of Ancient Armenia
c. 430 AD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0buDhyGSE
I have been so entertained by this discussion, that I decided to join this site. But I wanted to take a short, regressive step in the content of this thread to correct an error Yanni. In post #204 you state that....'Care in the detail is equally important to any art, the one of finding the "errors" of professional history writers and archivist-interpreters included. Such is the case with the following "family site", caring not for the detail but to "name" their relative "sources" of "misunderstanding" nevertheless:'.
I am sorry to say that the source you quote is inaccurate and that Frederick Nicolay was appointed Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte on the 5th September 1761 (source: Printed Lists, Royal Archives, Windsor), which makes the 10 year chronology (as well as the additional reference of poor Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay) correct.
All things considered however, I am enjoying the overall, conspirital tone and le Comte de Saint-Germain is just the icing on the cake! Oh, just to muddy the water further, did you know that le Marquis Jean de Nicolay (d.1737) was private tutor to Voltaire?
Who is Bach again??
Before this thread becomes a tripartite discussion, wouldn't it be better if it were moved to the General Chat section rather than remain on this sub section?
This part of the Forum is for general discussion of music, films etc. whereas this thread deals with specific questions concerning the esoteric nature of certain Bach compositions and has produced a protracted correspondence that is probably of little or no interest to a majority of members. It doesn't seem appropriate for a forum that has been set up for broader discussion of the disciplines mentioned.
You might be right. But it'd be interesting to see a definition of the line that, in this context, divides the specific from the general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bean
For instance, into which of those categories might the following threads fall?
Which is the most emotional form of musical expression?
Opera - is it absurd?
Operetta - is it opera for frivolous people?
Gilbert and Sullivan - inspired or irritating?
Are the lyrics of The Pirates of Penzance merely dazzlingly clever, or do they have any real depth?
What, actually, was the lot of a policeman in the latter half of the nineteenth century, and is it accurately reflected in the song?
Was W S Gilbert merely a front for Dickens writing lyrics for comic opera, which he liked to do in between knocking out chapters of Bleak House?
Ahaaaah, finally a "Nic."!
Why should I trust the Windsor Royal archives on the exact date of Frederick Nicolay's backstairs appointment and where then did Michael Kassler draw his "wrong" info from*?
Not that the issue (61 or 62) is that important really. He first came to London in 1736 and did accompany princess Charlotte to London in 1761 anyway (leaving him plenty of time for other matters 1761-62).
Otherwise I fully agree that ONE of THE issues is 1762 (my post 204 and previous on Frederic de Nicolay).
No, I was not aware of a Jean de Nicolay, tutor of Voltaire, feel free to introduce him to us.
Regards!
*A.Hyatt King is the answer, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNic