oh sorry i didnt post the other picture. if you go to the photoalbum thread i posted the zoomed in image. there is a face in the picture that doesnt belong to anyone in the group staring right at the camera beside me. :)
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...777_376163.jpg
Oh, ok, thanks :), thought that was just someone out of the light. Funny how the face is 'dark', ie almost the same colour as the guy beside it. Guess nobody seen anything at the time the picture was taken? It looks dark in there.
You say recent paranormal investigation... where were you investigating? Any luck other than the yellow-eyed demon lady? (ok, I DID try not to make a Supernatural reference but I just couldn't help it, too tempting :p, please ignore unless you get my reference :) )
I did an investigation of Pembrey Woods and War Bunkers in South Wales. :) It was quite dark but there was some natural moon light in the room. No one saw the face at the time, but i had seem a face similar to it at one point before hand (and it was just the head) coming straight at me from under the really tall guy in blacks chin. I'd never been so terrified in my life. And thats the god honest truth. Hands flew to my face because it scared the wits out of me. I'll never forget it. When i saw that photo i paled and told everyone what i'd seen. they had seem my hands fly to my face and me cry "Oh my god!" but they thought it was because i was excited about winning the T-Shirt in our auction for charity and they thought it was weird i'd done it. Said it made so much more sense when they found out what i'd seem. It was the first time i'd seen something that wasnt a white glow of a figure or a black shadow. I can still see the image of the face coming straight for me when i close my eyes.
I'm hopefully going to do something in Derby in beginning of June! :)
:rolleyes5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I don't believe in paranormal stuff or am I entirely interested in it (watching unscary episodes of GhostHunters pretty much turned me off), but I am opened minded to other peoples beliefs and always love hearing about strange things, even if I can't explain them or am even skeptical towards them.
Just think of the film My Dinner with Andre, it doesn't expect you to believe much of what Andre says, but it sure creates a damn interesting conversation. Too much rationalism takes away the joys and spontaneity of the human imagination. Rigidness is a metaphysical sin.
I really enjoyed reading about your experiences Niamh :), you should really share them with us more often. . . unless you already have *runs to Niamh's blog*
Hahaha, i dont think i've ever written anything in my blog about the paranormal... unless i mentioned the investigation but i dont think i did.
That is an excellent point.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
In fact I find supernatural phenomena highly engaging to me. It is hard to beleive them, but my question is the world is still a great mystery, and all that science has achieved is very little of it, and the great part of it still remains veiled from us.
Logically going everything, every event has a cause. Our presence here too has a cause. Our parents had desired for sex and the upshot is our existence in point of fact. What was the cause that led to copulation, maybe an external stimulus. What caused the stimulus and this goes on unending.
Then what is the supernatural? Is there a being? what causes everything in the world?
Mysteries do exist but it is really hard to synchronize with phenomena
There's a responsible way to indulge our thirst for fantasy, and that's through poetry, music, and fiction. Let's follow the human imagination down the path of artistic invention, not the deep dark rabbit hole of numbnuttery.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
Magical thinking isn't an admirable trait in adults. Once you're past a certain age, credulity is the real metaphysical sin.
Regards,
Istvan
There is nothing fantastical or fictional about experiencing real paranormal activity.
I agree with that 100 percent. When all is said and done though, I don't think most people will believe in the paranormal if they dont experience it first hand, and if they do believe in it just for the sake of believing in it, they tend to believe false ideas. Like every haunting being demonic. I've delt with the paranormal starting when I was a child up until now and though there have been a few, more then startling, experiences, for the most part all was calm and far from what most people would expect from spiritual activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I'd say there's nothing paranormal about it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
Regards,
Istvan
Exactly. :) Somethings, especially in the case of the paranormal, need to be seen to be believed. I know many people who were very sceptical about the paranormal until they experienced things even they couldnt explain via science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolte
Well you are intitled to your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
But the point is you're not explaining them simply by referring to them as paranormal either. Telling ghost stories and celebrating weird sensations isn't expanding our knowledge about the universe, it's just fetishizing the unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
Regards,
Istvan
I never believed in such things; then I had a bad car accident in '93...it was terrible, I was always seeing things stepping in front of the car, running over disappearing people...I didn't dare tell the neurologist and the sensation disappeared completely after 10 years.
Then, I began to do hospice nursing at night. I would sit in a dark room in the wee hours of the morning and just as the patients would die, I would see a bright light over them...I asked my workmates if they experienced this also; and many agreed they did...I decided to switch to days and have seen nothing in the rooms since.
After my husband died, I began to see him at the foot of my bed every night. (He was retired from the military and was to be cremated immediately; but the services would take place a few weeks later at the national cemetary with several other vets) Each night, his apparition became more bloated and purple. I was so disturbed that after a few days I called the funeral home. His body had been lost on its way to the crematory. For two weeks, his body was unidentified and for two weeks he showed at the end of my bed; each night more horrifying than the previous. Once they found him and he was with his friends, he never again came to me.
Well I'd prefer talking to William Blake over Richard Dawkins any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
:rolleyes5:Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
Um, right, Blake would qualify as a visionary poet, the type of artist I praised in that post you quoted. Can you actually see the words I post here, Daniel?
And I assume your view of Dawkins is based on careful reading of his most fascinating work, like Unweaving the Rainbow, and isn't just a bias developed from watching youtube videos and reading hatchet jobs from wacko websites. Am I right?
Regards,
Istvan
It seems that while you are fulfilling your thirst for fantasy in a "safe and crowd pleasing" manner; the government is spending millions of dollars funding paranormal studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Perhaps you should take a look outside your box and accept those of us who are not too afraid to consider that there may be something on our planet that is greater than ourselves.
Really? That's... depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Where did I ever say I don't accept you? I'm simply humble enough to realize that there are many things that compromise our objectivity when we start defining things as paranormal: grief, wishful thinking, and plain old thrill-seeking.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
I'm not going to apologize for being too staggered by what we already know about our universe to start making weird claims about the unknown.
Regards,
Istvan
Thank you for clarifying, Babbalanja (I really like that name; how'd you come up with it?) Anyway, I think the term "magical thinking" which is not a term that the mental health community generally pairs with minor depressive disorders, led me to the assumption that you were not accepting of others with different beliefs...and then the adjectives like wierd to describe peoples ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
I do appreciate, however, your ideas of a universe totally lacking in any supernatural influence; but of course, even in our time, while many may not believe in ghosts, a majority believes in a god, angels and other supernatural entities.
I was thinking of what Babbs had said; and it occurred to me that as I, personally, do not believe in heaven or hell, there was no reason to "imagine" that I saw a bright light in the darkness when someone died.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Also, I had no way of knowing; before the appearance, that my husbands body had been lost. (I have never known anyone to get "lost" between the hospital and crematorium) And, if out of grief, I would have desired a visit from him; I would have envisioned him either as I had last seen him before death or as I would hope, a much younger, healthier version of my husband.
No I was referring to Blake's well-known idiosyncratic piety and "visions". Wordsworth best expresses my sentiments when he said this: "There was no doubt that this poor man was mad, but there is something in the madness of this man which interests me more than the sanity of Lord Byron and Walter Scott."Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Frankly I would be more engaged in a conversation with a guy who thought that he was seeing angels and demons all around than say a guy like Dawkins (or your typical fundamentalist preacher as well) whose view of the world I find to be lifeless and empty. This is not to say that Dawkin's work is empty and dull, but whenever he makes an attempt at philosophical discourse, it is a little pitiful.
You know I don't know why you have to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is either uninformed or under some delusion. Yes I have in fact read much of Dawkin's work and was even an admirer of him at one point. A book like The Selfish Gene is popular science writing at its best, a book where Dawkin's indulges in ideological dogmatism like The God Delusion. I'm not criticizing Dawkin's rhetoric in-so-much as I am criticizing his dogmatizing of atheism and of starting a movement which is about just as close-minded and dogmatic as the people they themselves criticize (when I refer to 'movemnt' I refer to Dawkins himself as well).Quote:
And I assume your view of Dawkins is based on careful reading of his most fascinating work, like Unweaving the Rainbow, and isn't just a bias developed from watching youtube videos and reading hatchet jobs from wacko websites. Am I right?
Regards,
Istvan
I guess we disagree there. I think his thesis in Unweaving the Rainbow is at least an interesting defense of the materialist perspective. In terms of the subject of this thread, Dawkins would argue that people who thirst after the supernatural and the paranormal aren't giving the universe proper credit for its staggering wonders. The naturalistic perspective regards the marvels of the universe much more honestly than we do when we make up things in our ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
Why couldn't these ghost-hunters find fascination in the wonders of astronomy, or the miraculous world of microbiology? Is it too much to ask that people get inspiration from the amazing things we know about the world we live in, instead of playing make-believe about some fantasy world of ghosts and spirits?
Regards,
Istvan
But what's wrong with having a passion? Just because you disagree with the it or find it ridiculous or absurd doesn't mean that everyone has to bow down to your opinion or in the case of Niamh, give up their interest in the paranormal and go to the more "virtuous" vocation of biology and whatnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Actually you know what? I don't like that there are so many engineers on this website, they should all quit and become. . . .. film directors, yeah that's right! I'd like it if they did that!
Believe it or not but science can't provide all of the answers to life.
My point wasn't that their passion was misplaced, only that they seem more interested in what we don't know than what we know. Are they really searching for answers to these weird phenomena, or are they merely fascinated with its weirdness? Is this what empirical inquiry is truly all about?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBenoit
Tee hee.Quote:
Actually you know what? I don't like that there are so many engineers on this website, they should all quit and become. . . .. film directors, yeah that's right! I'd like it if they did that!
The difference between what I was saying and your bizarre parody of it is that I was actually taking the paranormal folks at their word that they were engaging in responsible inquiry and not just cheap thrills. If they are, they should approach the paranormal in an objective way. If not, they shouldn't expect people to respect their hobby.
Well, regarding phenomena in our world, Daniel, empirical evidential inquiry has done a remarkable job at explaining things that were once considered mysterious.Quote:
Believe it or not but science can't provide all of the answers to life.
And what mysteries, pray tell, has the 'woo' mindset ever explained? Did it explain how DNA is the basis of heredity? Did it explain the structure of our solar system? Did it inform us about the shared ancestry of all life on Earth?
So what answers does 'woo' provide us, Daniel?
Regards,
Istvan
Whatever dude, take that up with Niamh I'm not into this stuff in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Oh so I guess science is the only 'objective' way of figuring out things, when in fact its epistemological origins are just as subjective as anything else. More pragmatic yes, but not infinite.Quote:
The difference between what I was saying and your bizarre parody of it is that I was actually taking the paranormal folks at their word that they were engaging in responsible inquiry and not just cheap thrills. If they are, they should approach the paranormal in an objective way. If not, they shouldn't expect people to respect their hobby.
See this is why it's so hard to have a debate with you because you are so condescending to the opposition. First off, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about when you say 'woo' nor do I understand why you have come under the impression that I am some rabid anti-science wizard who believes in magic. Is it not possible for me to criticize aspects of science and still believe it to be a valid tool? (I cannot believe that this whole thing started with me calling-out Dawkins, which I now regret).Quote:
Well, regarding phenomena in our world, Daniel, empirical evidential inquiry has done a remarkable job at explaining things that were once considered mysterious.
And what mysteries, pray tell, has the 'woo' mindset ever explained? Did it explain how DNA is the basis of heredity? Did it explain the structure of our solar system? Did it inform us about the shared ancestry of all life on Earth?
So what answers does 'woo' provide us, Daniel?
Regards,
Istvan
What I meant by what I said was that science simply cannot provide all of the answers to life's questions. Why? Because the scientific method is limited logical system. It can't establish normativity (so to hell with the questions of ethics, the Is-Ought Problem, etc.), it cannot be self-reflexive nor can it deal with its own problems, such as the limits of induction, it cannot deal with how we treat its own concepts themselves, etc.
Also, as a critique of empiricism: natural phenomena is not all which concerns the world we live in because so much of what we conceive and think of are in themselves simulations and signified subjects. Science cannot explain the infinite regress between the signified and the signifier because it would undermine its very own system to do so. Scientific empiricism cannot deal with the problems of perception, of representation, of the nature of language, because to do so it would have to reflect back on its very own nature, science itself being a certain representation of nature.
The claim that reason will solve everything is a meta-narrative just like those of world religions which uses a certain logical system to look into the world and explain things the way it is seem from that window of reason.
Daniel,
You're preaching to the choir. I understand the philosophical issues with empirical evidential inquiry. Like you, I still feel it is a valid tool for expanding our understanding. And contrary to your view of me as arrogant, I celebrate the way empirical inquiry is geared toward circumventing our human narcissism.
The scientific method is just a process by which we model reality in a way that can be tested. The testing is the way we ensure that we're not just affirming a model of reality that validates our prejudices. It's a protection against the cognitive biases that compromise objectivity. I submit that the type of inquiry involved in paranormal investigation merely panders to our species' notoriously inflated sense of self-worth.
Regards,
Istvan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Thats a rather big assumption to make seeing as you know absoloutely nothing about me. I might be one of "these ghost hunters" but I previously was an Archaeologist, have studied areas of geology, anthropology, history and enviornmental studies and am still greatly passionate about them all. I'm currently back studying Heritage and Literature. I've been interested in astronomy since i was a child. I definitely would not consider my passions "misplaced".Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Studying the paranormal (and my interest in parapsychology) is just another one of my interests as it is with many others due to the fact that (as i have previously cited) i have had many things occur in my life that i would consider "unexplainable" or paranormal. When i'm dealing with the paranormal or events that could be paranormal i always apply scientific reasons or logic to why certain things occur or what could have caused something to happen. If i cant find any rational reason for it or am left stumped and it appears as if it could be paranormal, then i'll accept that it could be.
In the case of the photograph, it was taken on a digital camera and the photo was shown to the group only minutes later so an explaination of photoshopping can be discarded. As can the concept of double exposure. All the team are accounted for in the original photo so we can safely say its no one involved in the investigation. But yet the face is there.
I appriciate and respect the fact that you do not believe in these things but i'd appriciate it if you could show the same respect for the fact that i do and cease accusing me of fetishizing, playing make-believe and telling ghost stories, and insulting my intelligence.
Thank you.
There's one thing that always bothers me about people who report to have seen ghosts... it's that there are in many cases only two options: either they really did see something, or they're lying. In a lot of these stories it would have to either be a straight-up for-realzies ghost (which I don't believe in), or someone that you know is telling a bald-faced lie.
For example, right after that little kid from my town was killed when his grandpa ran him over (the one I blogged about), a nurse claimed that she saw the boy standing by his grandpa's bed, holding his hand and saying "I'll be okay, poppa."
Aaaalrighty... there is really no way that this could be a mistake on the part of the nurse coupled with wishful thinking (this is no "I smelled his aftershave" or "I heard my mother's voice last night," she knew the kid and claimed that she recognized him). So I'm left with one conclusion: this woman is just lying right to everyone's face. I could think of dozens of similar stories that people have told me with which I have arrived at the same conclusion: they didn't make a mistake, it's not some funny psychological glitch, either they REALLY DID see a ghost (which again, I find impossible to believe no matter how hard I try) or they're just lying. Sometimes they're lying in a very delicate situation (like claiming to have seen someone's family member in pain), so it's not like they're lying out of the goodness of their heart to relieve the suffering of someone who's grieving.
Oh, and I'm not accusing you of lying Niamh. I don't believe that you've seen ghosts, but I'm willing to accept the fact that you believe that you have.
Okay, a couple of questions (because I never get to grill people who claim to have seen ghosts, on account of I don't want to offend them or burst their bubble and kill their fun).Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
Where were you? Was it closed off to the rest of the public? While you were there, did you see any other people around? You're sure that everyone in your group is in the picture except for the one holding the camera?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
Original photo from a couple of pages back. I'm the one in the green coat. I'm facing where that face should be and there was no one there. I can name everyone else in that photo including the photographer and the owner of the red coat that you can faintly see beside me. She was standing facing the same way. No one is missing. Not sure if you can see the back of the photo. the bunker is open. It is on both sides because i once had trains running through it. Its located close to a beach at the end of The Pembrey Estate and Woods in Wales. No residence near by. If anyone else had turned up, it would have been the park rangers or coast guard and they would have been spotted and heard before they even approached the bunker. Yet there is still a face in the photo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
I'm not accusing you of lying about this, I'm just playing the odds. It's much easier for me to believe that the face is either someone in the group you don't recognize, or someone who was there that you don't remember, than that it's some sort of otherworldly apparition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
This is what I meant about Homo Sap's exaggerated sense of self-worth. We not only like to believe that humans go on to live strange, exciting lives after death, but we also tell ourselves that our departed ancestors have nothing better to do in the great beyond than appear to the living in weird ways. The afterlife must be pretty dull if these spirits get amusement from following us around in the dark to get their pictures taken, knocking the caps off our hair spray bottles, and pulling our hats off while we're spelunking.
Really? Like when you said, "Not everything can be explained by science"? Isn't that your way of saying that anyone who considers these phenomena quite explicable is kidding themselves? If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?Quote:
I appriciate and respect the fact that you do not believe in these things
I'm always a little amused at the way paranormal believers like to characterize skeptics as arrogant, emotionally stunted killjoys. In this thread, I've been upbraided for my rigidity and dogmatism. It's as if expecting evidence for extraordinary claims is itself a weird fetish, and asking questions is an inexcusable affront to those who tout their supernatural experiences.
However, I insist it's the paranormal believers who display a marked lack of humility: they have crossed the line to the invisible world, they have lifted the veil of Maya, and their momentous experiences don't deserve to be questioned.
Regards,
Istvan
Thats not what i was saying at all. That was merely an opinion expressed at the end of my post and in no way was i implying anything of the kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
That wasnt aimed at you so i dont even understand why you are taking offense to it.
I'm not denigrating anything. I've already mentioned i look towards science for answers, but they are not always there, hence "science cant explain everything." Because it cant. there are still so many things out there in our existence and in our universe that there are no answers for yet, and the same goes for things considered paranormal.Quote:
If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?
This topic has a great deal of potential and I would love to hear of others experiences. As for those who don't believe; okay, we all know now that you don't believe; so why don't you open a thread of your own that discusses this?
Many of us who have had encounters don't go looking for them; we simply see what we see and go on with our lives. I doubt that the original buyers of the Amityville house were happy when they had to leave behind their investment.
I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers. I recall the story of Houdini, who became so disappointed after he could not talk to his dead mother ; that he went on a one man mission to "out" the paranormal community.
ie: Over the years, I have shown many people how to take their pulse; after placing their fingers over the vein, half of the people still cannot feel it. This does not mean that there is no heart beat; it only means that those people lack the sensitivity to feel it.
Now, let's get on with the telling of experiences....
And to Daniel and papayahed::hurray::thumbsup:
I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.
Perhaps they want to proclaim their humility, for all to hear? Or they are dedicated to statistics, and think even the 'no opinion voice' needs to be counted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhar
The title of the thread is "Do You Believe In the paranormal and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?"Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Well, first of all we're not trashing the idea of the paranormal, we're just challenging it. To challenge something isn't an insult. It's very important, that's how most of the greatest discoveries have been made (for example, if Aristotle's concept of the four elements had never been challenged we wouldn't have the periodic table).Quote:
I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers.
Secondly, I would disagree. I think that the widespread belief in the paranormal is a combination of thrill seeking (fear is exciting, and the weirdness of ghosts is a nice break from the drudgery of everyday life) and denial that death is the end (unlike Istvan though, I don't see anything wrong with that... fear of death is human, nothingness is a hard thing to come to terms with).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhar
I think it helps to have their vote, too. It's like an undecided in the presidental elections.Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Yes, Juniper, I realized that after I made the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
Really, though, when people begin to say that a person is either "hearing things or flat out lying"; it becomes insulting to those who are claiming such things. I think anything worth being discussed should hold up to challange; but, this topic is breaking down into an argument and passive-aggressive bullying.
The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"
And it's not insulting to be called dogmatic and rigid for not approaching these claims with utter credulity? It's not insulting to be told that we're the ones in denial for thinking these strange experiences are figments of the imagination or understandable products of grief?Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Well, we offered perfectly reasonable explanations for the ghost-face-in-the-picture. But the burden of proof isn't on us. The people who are claiming that naturalistic science is helpless to explain these momentous, otherworldly experiences are the ones who are expecting others to believe their ghost stories. And they are the ones acting insulted when people ask questions or offer rational explanations for these not-particularly-inexplicable phenomena.Quote:
The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"
Regards,
Istvan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh
Niamh, I am glad you posted this. I absolutely believe you. I went to a library night discussion on this same thing and the ghost investigators seemed to be totally honest. I also saw photos of the orbs and within the photo there was a face much like this one. I was prompted to go to the lecture, because my son stayed in a house his friend had purchased recently and the friend felt the house was haunted. I didn't know to if I should believe it, then but later my son, Sean, got really excited when he found a similar photo on his computer....he takes tons of photos all the time and he had not reviewed them; when he blew them up he was in for a surprise. This one definitely could not have been altered - he knows nothing of Photoshop or how to go about altering a photo. Clearly (even more than your photo) in the background through a window behind his friend was a face. It looked to be a woman from the 1800's by her hairstyle. Now, I guestioned him if maybe someone was peeking in the window, but he said it would be impossible. They set the shot up again and the window was too high for that to work. Also, when I looked at it, the demensions seemed a bit off. She would have had to be 8 foot tall and somehow the forshortening in the photo seemed wrong. But everyone said it was definitely a woman's face. He discussed the photo with his friends and they send it to the paranomial group at Rutgers University. They were very happy to have it. Needless to say, my son was scared out of his wits for months after the strange night he spend in the house.
Preceeding all of this the young man (his friend) had been renuvating the house and they took down part of a wall. Inside the wall they found an old toy. When they removed the toy is when the odd occurances began to happen. Later they put the toy back into the wall and now they spirit seems to have departed. Odd story, isn't it?