Sons and Lovers

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Oh, let me see...I've finished reading "The Virgin and the Gypsy" this August. Lawrence's selected short stories was one of the books I took on vacations with me.

My professor is the best I had in my four-year course in university. I am still in touch with her as we are working together, planning my PhD, and I feel privileged for meeting her. Professor like her bring about any university's significance.

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Originally Posted by Janine

amalia, is "The Virgin and the Gypsy" in the short stories? I thought it was longer and more of a novelette. I can't seem to find it in my three short story books. I have another book with "St. Mawr" and "The Man Who Died", but now I have a feeling I don't have the "V an G". Maybe it is on this site. I will go and see now.

Your professor sounds wonderful. I wish I could met her. It is great that she is keeping in touch with you and helping your plan your PhD. I am friends with my high-school literature teacher, can you believe it? She retired a number of years back and lives in my town and is very active in the town and it's history, etc. I see her once in awhile. She was one of my best teachers, but now we often disagree about authors. I don't even think she likes Lawrence at all. She likes American literature, better than English. But I still like her as a friend; she is a nice lady.

You are so privileged to have such a fine teacher and sharing the appreciation of the same literature. Teachers like her do make a difference and are so significant in one's life, never to be forgotten.

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I wish I had had a teacher with a specialty in Lawrence. It would have been a great experience for me. Alas, I had to feel my way through on my own, and I never knew (and still don't) if I got it right.

I've never read The Virgin and the Gypsy. It's not in Lawrence's Complete Short Stories. It is considered a short novel or novella.

Amalia, you're more than welcomed to my master's thesis if you think it would help.

Janine, you never mentioned your high school teacher. Which writers is she interested in?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I wish I had had a teacher with a specialty in Lawrence. It would have been a great experience for me. Alas, I had to feel my way through on my own, and I never knew (and still don't) if I got it right.

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Virgil, Same here... with me. What a great experience that would have been. I just discovered Lawrence on my own, well with the suggestion of some guy I was interested in at the time. I don't even recall reading anything of L's in highschool, although my sister said she read "Rocking Horse Winner" in HS. Seems lots of high schools do teach that one, for some strange reason.

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I've never read The Virgin and the Gypsy. It's not in Lawrence's Complete Short Stories. It is considered a short novel or novella.

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I could have sworn I read it and had the book - like maybe two novellas in one book, but if so, I can't seem to locate the book now. I have lately been thinking of several books I had, and now I can't seem to find either which really bugs me. Odd, because I never ever throw things like that away. Maybe it will turn up if I search for it. I hate to go and buy it, if I have it already. I did just invest in a new copy of "The Rainbow", I figured you would like to hear me say that, Virgil. I do plan a re-reading, maybe in the summer, next year. I checked my big book which houses several of the novels, but it did not have that one. I must have borrowed a library book first time around. I know now I will have such a different concept and perception of the book. V, did you ever read "Arron's Rod"? Not sure I spelled that name correctly. Tired out now to check it.

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Amalia, you're more than welcomed to my master's thesis if you think it would help.

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It is fine writing Amalia - quite interesting. It did help me understand the theory although I admit I had to read it twice to grasp it all.

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Janine, you never mentioned your high school teacher. Which writers is she interested in?

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I know she does like Dickens and also loves Victor Hugo - we discussed "Les Miserables" recently, but I was shocked when she said she hated the British authors - I think she basically meant the modernists such as Woolf, Lawrence, Joyce and even Thomas Hardy - she does not like Hardy at all. I was a bit shocked to be honest with you, when she made this statement to me. She is a strictly religious minded, so maybe that is why. She is in her 70's now. She loves histories and I think she likes Shakespeare; well, to each his own, right? She liked Steinbeck, Thomas Wolf, Jack London, Herman Melville - Hemmingway, Hawthorne, Wharton; authors like that. She probably does not like any of the more subversive authors who questioned religion. My high school was tres conservative - what can I say. No wonder I broke loose and went to art school, right - what an eye-opener that was for a girl from a middle class conservative neighborhood in a small town in the suburbs! ;)

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, Same here... with me. What a great experience that would have been. I just discovered Lawrence on my own, well with the suggestion of some guy I was interested in at the time. I don't even recall reading anything of L's in highschool, although my sister said she read "Rocking Horse Winner" in HS. Seems lots of high schools do teach that one, for some strange reason.

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For some reason lots really like "The Rocking Horse Winner." It's an OK story, but there are so many other Lawrence stories that are top notch. I'm not sure why that one clicks with people at large. I should re-read it. Perhaps I missed something.

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I could have sworn I read it and had the book - like maybe two novellas in one book, but if so, I can't seem to locate the book now. I have lately been thinking of several books I had, and now I can't seem to find either which really bugs me. Odd, because I never ever throw things like that away. Maybe it will turn up if I search for it. I hate to go and buy it, if I have it already. I did just invest in a new copy of "The Rainbow", I figured you would like to hear me say that, Virgil. I do plan a re-reading, maybe in the summer, next year. I checked my big book which houses several of the novels, but it did not have that one. I must have borrowed a library book first time around. I know now I will have such a different concept and perception of the book. V, did you ever read "Arron's Rod"? Not sure I spelled that name correctly. Tired out now to check it.

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No I never read Aaron's rod. That's one of the novels lumped with Kangaroo and The Plumed Serpent as his mediocre period. Great that you bought The Rainbow. I really love that novel. If you want to read The virgin and the Gypsy, I'll be glad to lend it to you.

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It is fine writing Amalia - quite interesting. It did help me understand the theory although I admit I had to read it twice to grasp it all.

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:blush: Thank Janine.

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I know she does like Dickens and also loves Victor Hugo - we discussed "Les Miserables" recently, but I was shocked when she said she hated the British authors - I think she basically meant the modernists such as Woolf, Lawrence, Joyce and even Thomas Hardy - she does not like Hardy at all. I was a bit shocked to be honest with you, when she made this statement to me. She is a strictly religious minded, so maybe that is why. She is in her 70's now. She loves histories and I think she likes Shakespeare; well, to each his own, right? She liked Steinbeck, Thomas Wolf, Jack London, Herman Melville - Hemmingway, Hawthorne, Wharton; authors like that. She probably does not like any of the more subversive authors who questioned religion. My high school was tres conservative - what can I say.

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Well, there is some risque stuff in some of those American novelists. And Woolf is not risque at all. Perhaps she didn't care for the experimental writing style. You didn't mention Faulkner in the American writers she liked, and he was very experimental.

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No wonder I broke loose and went to art school, right - what an eye-opener that was for a girl from a middle class conservative neighborhood in a small town in the suburbs! ;)

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You mean like painting male nudes. :p :lol:

I would be honoured to read your thesis, Virgil!!!!! Thank you so much!!!!

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Originally Posted by Virgil

For some reason lots really like "The Rocking Horse Winner." It's an OK story, but there are so many other Lawrence stories that are top notch. I'm not sure why that one clicks with people at large. I should re-read it. Perhaps I missed something.

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Virgil, I know - I never really could see the big fuss about that story. I thought it surreal and outlandish. I saw this really silly rendition of it on utube the other day - someone made it into a modern video. Well, to each his own. I think, like you I will have to re-read it; maybe there was something I had missed earlier on. I think O of C was good but I don't think that was L's best either. You know sometimes what the majority likes is not what I like particularly.

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No I never read Aaron's rod. That's one of the novels lumped with Kangaroo and The Plumed Serpent as his mediocre period. Great that you bought The Rainbow. I really love that novel. If you want to read The virgin and the Gypsy, I'll be glad to lend it to you.

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I read "Aaron's Rod" and thought it was a bit strange, but I don't think quite on par (strange-wise) with PS. It seemed to follow in the vane more of 'WIL' and 'Rainbow', but maybe I am thinking that, because I read it back around the time I read those two books. I did not know it was a much later work. Well, yes, I would borrow the book - "Virgin and the Gypsy" - thanks so much for offering it. Let me look around first because I can't imagine I don't have it - I distinctly recall reading it and my library has hardly any books on Lawrence :( - only "Sons and Lovers" and "Woman In Love" I think; possibly LCL....but it is doubtful - a very conservative library and town.

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:blush: Thank Janine.

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Hey, don't blush - you deserve credit - your thesis was a fine work of research and writing!:thumbs_up

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Well, there is some risque stuff in some of those American novelists. And Woolf is not risque at all. Perhaps she didn't care for the experimental writing style. You didn't mention Faulkner in the American writers she liked, and he was very experimental.

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That is it exactly - like I said I grew up in a conservative environment and my HS probably banned books with any bit of subversion or risque quality about them. I think perhaps we might have read Faulkner. I know my good HS friend, Cliff, who was a rebel personified (M,B&D like you;)) pushed reading those books and authors. He loved Joyce and kept telling me for years "Janine, you are an artist and you have never read 'Portrait of an Artist' by Joyce? Shame on you!" You know it was not until a year ago, that I finally read the book. He would have been pleased.:lol: Better late than never, right? I think he read Faulkner and also Salinger - think he even got his autograph on his book end page. He died a number of years back and I know his sister-in-law mentioned the book to me recently; she has it. Anyway, it is a good memory thinking of him and how rebellious he was in HS -hey, someone had to stand up for the great authors, right! We probably had a different teacher then too - I recall another woman teaching Lit and she was way more progressive.

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You mean like painting male nudes. :p :lol:

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NO, that was not particularly what I meant! :lol:(dirty old man!) My college had some real characters, and that includes the professors. One professor I had played his flamingo quitar often in class; that was my English lit class - haha:lol:. He was heavy into Herman Hesse I recall and most times I think he was pretty 'high' in class! Hey, it was the 70's - hear this Amalia; that was the true 'Hippie era'. I lived through it the first time, not in the revival era only! We had a ball in art school! Not sure how much we learned, but it certainly was entertaining at the time.

Hey, V, I saw a film (parody) on going to art school the other night called "Art School Confidential"....I did laugh, and laugh (very amusing) and recall scenes like in my own art college like in this film. You should watch it sometime. You would like the nude model scenes - they were pretty funny and pretty realistic, to the way it really was. All except one guy makes comments about them continually and I don't recall any snickerers or anything like that. Still one main theme is that 'montage garbaaage' - that is with a long 'a' - we used to call it that - got all the 'acolades' and the poor smuck who really had talent, got passed by by the non-talented students and there were many, believe me - all politics and still is, unfortunately. John Malcovitz played a perfect talentless prof. He really fits this role well.

Peace everyone.....hahaha...that is 60's talk.... originally.

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

Amalia, thanks for listing that. I don't recall having that exact volume, because I don't think I ever read "The Lovely Lady" or Rawdon's Roof". I did read "Love Amoung the Haystacks"; and the last two you mention I have in one small volume (paperback). I probably have another paperback buried somewhere in my bookshelf or down in the basement or in a box - any number of hiding places in my way too crowded rooms! haha. I keep thinking I want to read again "Love Amoung the Haystacks" - I really loved that story.:) I remember thinking how sweet and nostalgic that story was and I got a real chuckle out of it.

I heard one critic online say how funny L could be sometimes in his work. You know I do believe we skip over some of his humor. I actually did see shreds of humor in some passages of "Sons and Lovers" on this second reading. Sometimes the mother is complaining about the father and it actually is kind of funny - she goes so over the top. Same in the short story - there were a few instances I kind of found amusing in her anger or resentment. They say Lawrence could be very humorous himself. He loved playing charades and they said people could not stop laughing at his impersonations. I don't think L was all heavy and serious all of the time.

I also want to read "The Fox" again, when I read "L among the H". These 2 books, or novellas, I know I have in a large volume of L's collected works. I probably have another big book somewhere with his collection, too. I just misplaced it. Too much stuff is my ultimate problem. I am still searching this week for a t-shirt with autumn leaves on it. I know I bought it, put it away and by the time I find it it the trees will be bare! :lol:

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

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Interesting collection. I have never seen it before. 2004 is relatively recent.

Yes, that is a newer edition and it must be 'limited', indeed - can't find it listed on Amazon, at all. I did however, find a movie from the 70's based on the book - looks quite good actually.

From Amazon - Product Description:
Starring Joanna Shimkus, Franco Nero, Honor Blackman, Mark Burns, Fay Compton and Maurice Denham. D. H. Lawrences most electrifying novel comes to life on the silver screen! This movie is based on a short novel by D. H. Lawrence that was discovered in France after his death in 1930. Immediately recognized as a masterpiece in which Lawrence had distilled and purified his ideas about sexuality and morality, the story has become a classic.Set in a small village in the English countryside, this is the story of a secluded, sensitive rector's daughter who yearns for meaning beyond the life to which she seems doomed. When she meets a handsome young gipsy whose life appears different from hers.

Thought that was interesting, being found after his death in France, that is where he died - France.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I read "Aaron's Rod" and thought it was a bit strange, but I don't think quite on par (strange-wise) with PS. It seemed to follow in the vane more of 'WIL' and 'Rainbow', but maybe I am thinking that, because I read it back around the time I read those two books. I did not know it was a much later work. Well, yes, I would borrow the book - "Virgin and the Gypsy" - thanks so much for offering it. Let me look around first because I can't imagine I don't have it - I distinctly recall reading it and my library has hardly any books on Lawrence :( - only "Sons and Lovers" and "Woman In Love" I think; possibly LCL....but it is doubtful - a very conservative library and town.

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Here's a listing of L's novels. Some of these are actually short stories, not novels. Aaron's Rod was 1922. However these are published dates, not when they were actually written. Women In Love was written around 1917 but did not get published until 1920.

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NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Trespasser (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920)
Aaron's Rod (1922)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Fox (1923)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Boy in the Bush (1924)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
John Thomas and Lady Jane (1927)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
We Need One Another (1933)
Mr. Noon (1985)
You Touched Me (1993)
Paul Morel (2003)

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Hey, don't blush - you deserve credit - your thesis was a fine work of research and writing!:thumbs_up

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Thanks. I'm quite proud of it.

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That is it exactly - like I said I grew up in a conservative environment and my HS probably banned books with any bit of subversion or risque quality about them. I think perhaps we might have read Faulkner. I know my good HS friend, Cliff, who was a rebel personified (M,B&D like you;)) pushed reading those books and authors. He loved Joyce and kept telling me for years "Janine, you are an artist and you have never read 'Portrait of an Artist' by Joyce? Shame on you!" You know it was not until a year ago, that I finally read the book. He would have been pleased.:lol: Better late than never, right? I think he read Faulkner and also Salinger - think he even got his autograph on his book end page. He died a number of years back and I know his sister-in-law mentioned the book to me recently; she has it. Anyway, it is a good memory thinking of him and how rebellious he was in HS -hey, someone had to stand up for the great authors, right! We probably had a different teacher then too - I recall another woman teaching Lit and she was way more progressive.

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Nice to share some fond memories.

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NO, that was not particularly what I meant! :lol:(dirty old man!)

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:p

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My college had some real characters, and that includes the professors. One professor I had played his flamingo quitar often in class; that was my English lit class - haha:lol:. He was heavy into Herman Hesse I recall and most times I think he was pretty 'high' in class! Hey, it was the 70's - hear this Amalia; that was the true 'Hippie era'. I lived through it the first time, not in the revival era only! We had a ball in art school! Not sure how much we learned, but it certainly was entertaining at the time.

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College is such a great time. Free and relatively little repsonsibilities. And you're out in the world for the first time. :bawling: I hate growing old.

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Hey, V, I saw a film (parody) on going to art school the other night called "Art School Confidential"....I did laugh, and laugh (very amusing) and recall scenes like in my own art college like in this film. You should watch it sometime. You would like the nude model scenes - they were pretty funny and pretty realistic, to the way it really was.

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:blush: ;)

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All except one guy makes comments about them continually and I don't recall any snickerers or anything like that.

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Well, the didn't have someone like me (MB&D) in your class.:p

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Peace everyone.....hahaha...that is 60's talk.... originally.

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You didn't go to college in the 60's. You're not that old. ;) Peace, sister. :p :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Here's a listing of L's novels. Some of these are actually short stories, not novels. Aaron's Rod was 1922. However these are published dates, not when they were actually written. Women In Love was written around 1917 but did not get published until 1920.

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Virgil, I would have to check back in (like I will miss something if I don't). I need to be banned like that person begging Logos to ban them on her blog. :lol:
Anyway, thanks for posting this list. Wait, why is Kangaroo listed twice? Also was Paul Morel (original novel of S&L) published late? I wonder what that novel is like and how it differs from S&L's...hummmm. So I was right -"Aaron's Rod" came right after WIL. I am a good guesser, aren't I?

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Thanks. I'm quite proud of it.

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You should be very proud. I am sure it took a lot of doing and hardwork and taxed your brain, too!

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Nice to share some fond memories.

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It is - glad I could share that with all of you. It brings my friend back to me in memory. He was a very special person. We met in 9th grade, friends for life.:)

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:p

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:lol:

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College is such a great time. Free and relatively little repsonsibilities. And you're out in the world for the first time. :bawling: I hate growing old.

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*creaking body, creaking bones, sore neck* yes growing old is hateful isn't it? I want to start all over again and especially from those college days - they were the best! What fun we had in art college. And most of the people I meet there were crazy like me. I felt very much in my 'element'.

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:blush: ;)

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Why are you blushing?

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Well, the didn't have someone like me (MB&D) in your class.:p

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Oh yes, my friend Karl - he was quite a riot....and definitely MB&D to know! I think I told you about him before. He was born in a bombing raid in Germany, so he was all 'spite-fire', believe me! He kept me laughing! ;) Hey, Karl, if you are out there - you still have me laughing!:lol: He thought it real funny to lift me up in the air before class - I was a half-pint then and he was this big robust German guy - cute, too. I complained, but actually I did not mind.

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You didn't go to college in the 60's. You're not that old. ;) Peace, sister. :p :D

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uhhh eehhhh wellllll....graduated HS in 68 (spring) and started college in 1968 (fall)....but I know, I look so youthful, you are all so amazed. The Beatles were at their height and everyone was protesting the war. I was on the borderline of being a true hippie. Peace and Love!

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Originally Posted by Janine

Anyway, thanks for posting this list. Wait, why is Kangaroo listed twice? Also was Paul Morel (original novel of S&L) published late? I wonder what that novel is like and how it differs from S&L's...hummmm. So I was right -"Aaron's Rod" came right after WIL. I am a good guesser, aren't I?

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Don't know why Kangaroo is posted twice. Maybe a mistake. Paul Morel must be an early draft of S&L. Yes you were right about Aaron's Rod.

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*creaking body, creaking bones, sore neck* yes growing old is hateful isn't it? I want to start all over again and especially from those college days - they were the best! What fun we had in art college. And most of the people I meet there were crazy like me. I felt very much in my 'element'.

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Yes quite a difference between 18 years old and 50 years old. But it beats the alternative.

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Why are you blushing?

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Because you keep talking about porno flicks. :p :lol:

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uhhh eehhhh wellllll....graduated HS in 68 (spring) and started college in 1968 (fall)....but I know, I look so youthful, you are all so amazed. The Beatles were at their height and everyone was protesting the war. I was on the borderline of being a true hippie. Peace and Love!

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Oh i guess you did go to college in the sixties.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Don't know why Kangaroo is posted twice. Maybe a mistake. Paul Morel must be an early draft of S&L. Yes you were right about Aaron's Rod.

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They must have revived Paul Morel for publication. Many people are curious these days and want to see the original drafts. L wrote so many versions of many of his novels.

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Yes quite a difference between 18 years old and 50 years old. But it beats the alternative.

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True, very true.

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Because you keep talking about porno flicks. :p :lol:

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No, I don't (!) and I think you are a riot!:lol: If you go to Italy, you will see nude statues everywhere - fountains, street corners, churches, public buildings, town squares. You are not really that naive are you? Someone had to model for all of these, you know.;)

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Oh i guess you did go to college in the sixties.

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...duh, yes I am afraid I did start college in the 60's. Now all our music everyone is listening to and loving it....revivals of everything!:thumbs_up rock on!

Oh, my God, so many Lawrence's novels and stories I haven't read yet!!!!!! I had an appetite now, I tell you!!I must find them all!!!!! I have read:

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
...and that's all...I must find them!!!

Sorry for not taking part in the discussion for so long, but I need a lot of time for the Russian literature. I will try to participate more from now on :)

Amalia, I feel the same way. After all I have read only two books :blush: and you have read so many!!! But I will read more if I am alive after so much Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. It will be a veeerrrrry long reading :lol:

I'm back :D I am having such a difficult week :( with work. Pheww!

Anyway, first i'd like to comment on the flower photos. Those were very nice Janine!

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Originally Posted by Janine

All of this is quite good and expands the idea. I know that theory has been around long before Dan Brown came out with his blockbuster/contraversial novel. It is the prior stuff I was more interested in. The novel is pretty corny and commercial. I do have better taste in literature than DB's work.:blush: But this added information really throws better light on the correlation between Mary Magdeline and Mirriam. You could probably say that Paul's mother better correlated to Mary, Christ's mother - in sacrificing her sons to the world. Just a thought....maybe way off with that one...just a thought.

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You don't have to blush Janine. I have read two Dan Brown books and have enjoyed them! A fun and easy read, nothing more nothing less ;) . And of course you have better taste in literature (or else you wouldn't be called the "tour guide" for no reason ;) ).

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Originally Posted by Janine

At least Lawrence seems to think that is true and maybe it is. I don't know for fact. (....) It is strange now that in his earlier novel "Sons and Lovers" Miriam is the one with the mysterious dark eyes. It almost indicates to me that she had the potential represent the blood theory or the deep sexual mysteries and yet she is not the one to do so for Paul, instead it is Clara he finds sexual furfillment with but not entirely. I don't know if that last statement of mine makes sense. It just seems strange now that Miriam has the dark mysterious eyes but these now seem indicative of religious/mystical mysteries. Paul's eyes are described as being blue - correct? I think L often mention's Mrs. Morel's eyes as also being a clear blue.

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Hmmm...i think you got that right too..Miriam seems to have that repressed sexuality, doesn't she?

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am thinking on the scene when he fixes the bicycle tire and she admires his skill and wants to run her hands down his sides. Then finally, she does, but that is as far as it goes - she pulls back away from him again. This must have been confusing and lonely for Paul; confusing for her, too. I can see why he is angry much of the time with her or annoyed with her. Am I wrong? If I am please correct me. I don't have to be the 'tour quide' or 'the leader' - just another lowly participant in this thread struggling along with my thoughts, just like all of you. I am only half way through the book, and all of you are probably done reading, correct? What a 'slow-poke' I have been on this one. But I am enjoying my second reading very much, more than the first time. I think I may have to read it a third time....well, someday.

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Yes she does exactly that. Nice scene the one you mention ;)

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

The volume that contains "The Virgin and the Gypsy" is a 2004 Wordsworth Limited Edition, with introduction and notes by Pr. Jeff Wallace of the University of Glamorgan.

It also contains the following stories:"Love among the Haystacks", "The Lovely Lady", "Rawdon's Roof", "The Rocking- Horse Winner", "The Man Who Loved Islands", and "The Man Who Died".

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:lol: Amalia we buy the same editions..i bet you have at least two shelves full of blue books :lol: .

Yes, you are right!!!!!
Hahaha!

Janine, help!!!!! My e-mails to you are returned as spams!!!! I am at a loss, I cannot communicate with you!!

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Yes, you are right!!!!!
Hahaha!

Janine, help!!!!! My e-mails to you are returned as spams!!!! I am at a loss, I cannot communicate with you!!

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Amalia, don't panic! I am still here....I am not going anywhere that I know of. I am sure we can get your email straightened out. I just sent you a PM and an email since 3 of yours did get to my regular box - see. You must have hit the wrong button before or maybe it was just a temporary gliche...it is spooky day here - Halloweeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn. Boooooooooo....
See if you got my emails just now ok, then let me know.......must be a Halloween 'ghost in the machine'.
J

manolia, I will answer your answers to my post tomorrow. It got late now with Halloween and all. I got busy and then wrote a long email, too.

Wonder what happened to amalia. I hope she did not lose her computer or service. She seemed to be having trouble today with her email.

I'm back, briefly, to say that I'll come back later and post. Hopefully, I can get some time tomorrow. I didn't mean to make a point and then disappear.

Quark, no problem. I have not even finished my (second) reading of the book. I am taking my time to absorb more this time around and understand it better.
Manolia said she would continue to post past the month and so did others - there is no deadline here which is better, don't you think. No pressure at all. I will be happy to hear what you have to add to the discussion. I have about 150 more pages to read. I am up to the part when Miriam has brought Clara to Paul and they all take a long walk out in the woods. I have some comments on this part but it got too late tonight and I will have to let it go for tomorrow or the next day.

I am here, everything is fixed!!!!

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Oh, my God, so many Lawrence's novels and stories I haven't read yet!!!!!! I had an appetite now, I tell you!!I must find them all!!!!! I have read:

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)
...and that's all...I must find them!!!

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amalia, I am truly impressed with this reading list of yours - and at your age....wonderful!:thumbs_up I think you have plenty of time to catch up and read more L. or all of L's works. I still have a few left to read but I am getting there. You should read a good biography - it really enriches the experience of reading his work. I don't agree with Virgil on this point - that you can separate the author from his work. I found reading about his life made it more meaningful for me in the long-run.

I am so glad you got your email and computer straightened out. I know someone else on Lit Net had a computer problem too and now hers is fine as well. Computer sure can be frustrating sometimes.
:crash: "We can't live with them and we can't live without them!"

Alexei, good to see you back. Hey, it is never too late. I am still finishing up the book - reading this time so very slowly and absorbing it all. I hope to comment soon but my neck is bothering me so long posts have been impossible presently.

Hi manolia, I am going to come back after dinner or later and answer you comments on my comments. I was so happy to see you resurface also and address those comments I had made awhile back. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Janine

amalia, I am truly impressed with this reading list of yours - and at your age....wonderful!:thumbs_up I think you have plenty of time to catch up and read more L. or all of L's works. I still have a few left to read but I am getting there. You should read a good biography - it really enriches the experience of reading his work. I don't agree with Virgil on this point - that you can separate the author from his work. I found reading about his life made it more meaningful for me in the long-run.

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Amalia, I'm impressed too. You may have read as many as I have.

These of the novels I've read:

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Sons and Lovers (1912)
The Rainbow (1915)
Women in Love (1920)
Kangaroo (1923)
The Fox (1923)
Kangaroo (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)
The Man Who Died (1931)

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Plus I've read just about all the short stories and lots of his poems, many of his essays, and some of his travel writing.

I guess I have read quite a bit of Lawrence. ;)

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Originally Posted by manolia

I'm back :D I am having such a difficult week :( with work. Pheww!

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Hi manolia, I am sorry you had such a difficult week at work. I guess some weeks are just like that. I hope this week is has improved in that category.
Thanks for taking time to come in here and comment.

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Anyway, first i'd like to comment on the flower photos. Those were very nice Janine!

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Thanks so much. I thought we could use a little color for the season. I posted some nice photos of chyrsanthemums in S&L; you might want to check them out, very autumn-like. I got them all online - not my photos. Pretty aren't they? I wish I could take the credit. Illustrations seem appropriate at slow periods and seem to perk everyone up. I am a very visual person!:)

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You don't have to blush Janine. I have read two Dan Brown books and have enjoyed them! A fun and easy read, nothing more nothing less ;) . And of course you have better taste in literature (or else you wouldn't be called the "tour guide" for no reason ;) ).

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Well, one just says the name and most people on here will cringe. I found the book entertaining and interesting, at times a bit corny and as I said before somewhere I kept thinking this would make a fine film. Actually I admit I did like the film, although they probably did change things. I liked the imagery and I like symbols and things like that - details in films. This is why I like Hitchcock films so much - he always used little details and objects and symbols. We sometimes do need a bit of entertaining and my friend urged me to read the book - she still loved it, and my other friend laughs at it so opinion is divided. I know, manolia, we both have way better taste in literature - real literature. Dan Brown's book is not literature to me but a novel. As someone already said - these ideas about Mary Magdaline were suggested long before Dan Brown thought to write his block-buster book; so I was only pointing out the Mary fact and the two Mary's references and connections.

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Hmmm...i think you got that right too..Miriam seems to have that repressed sexuality, doesn't she?

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Yes, and the more I read about her and her interaction with Paul it confuses me just what she wants or expects of him. Now I am just past the part where she brings Clara home and sets up the meeting with Clara and Paul. They all take a long walk in the fields and woodland. Why exactly is Miriam doing this? Does she really think that, if Paul goes off with Clara, he will eventually come back to her? I feel a bit confused at this point. I don't know how she would handle that, but I guess I don't recall this part of the book so well, and need to keep reading, till I see what transpires next. It just seems that she is setting up Paul, to fail with Clara, or to have this affair she can't have. Miriam does seem to be sexually repressed herself, like I said and you agreed upon.

I still have a lot of confusion about eye color with Lawrence. One time he seems to indicate one color means such and such and then later he changes it. Someone should do a whole thesis theme on "The Significance of the Color of Eyes in Lawrence's Work".....;) :lol: Just don't look to me to write it...no pun intended.... 'look'....:D

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Yes she does exactly that. Nice scene the one you mention ;)

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Yes, that scene seemed significant and I think I just read another similiar one where Miriam again reaches out to touch Paul. She seems to like to do so, but then she pulls back. She seems like a very confused young girl to me. I begin to wonder who is the more confused - he or her?
There are no simple explanations or answers to this novel.

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:lol: Amalia we buy the same editions..i bet you have at least two shelves full of blue books :lol: .

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Yes, I can see you two are twins with your pretty (sky, eye) blue copies of the 2004 Wordsworth Limited Editions! I am jealous - I only have old books bound in dull green. Were these required for your Universities?

Ok, my turn to brag. I have read all of these so far and ones that I read twice I put an * after.

NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912) *
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920) *
Aaron's Rod (1922)
The Fox (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928) *
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)

Also - which I thought to be a novella:
Love Among the Haystacks

Following novels, novellas I may have read, so long ago I am not sure:

The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)


I did read:
Apocalypse (1931)

3 Travel Books - D.H.Lawrence in Italy -

Twilight in Italy
Sea and Sardinia
Etruscan Places

Read in part or intend to read:

The Complete Short Stories in 3 Volumes
Not all, but many so far; hope to read them all.

Complete Poetry of D.H.Lawrence
Read the majority, but not all; will eventually.

Various commentary/critical analysis books, articles by Lawrence, in part. Most articles were from:

Selected Literary Criticism

Did read in full -

3 Biographies:

The Intelligent Heart by Harry T. Moore
The Life of D.H. Lawrence

The phoenix and the flame: D.H. Lawrence; a biography
By Trease, Geoffrey, 1909

D.H.Lawrence
The Story of a Marriage
Brenda Maddox

Presently reading and intended reading:

Cambridge editions (more recent) Biographies:

D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912 by John Worthen

D.H.Lawrence The Life of an Outsider by John Worthen

The Selected Letters of D.H.Lawrence



Additional intended reading - anything I missed....;) !!!

I guess I did read a lot of L books and stories so far, huh....?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Ok, my turn to brag. I have read all of these so far and ones that I read twice I put an * after.

NOVELS

The White Peacock (1911)
Sons and Lovers (1912) *
The Rainbow (1915)
The Lost Girl (1920)
Women in Love (1920) *
Aaron's Rod (1922)
The Fox (1923)
St. Mawr (1925)
The Plumed Serpent (1926)
Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928) *
The Virgin and the Gipsy (1930)
The Man Who Died (1931)

Also - which I thought to be a novella:
Love Among the Haystacks

Following novels, novellas I may have read, so long ago I am not sure:

The Captain's Doll (1923)
The Ladybird (1923)
The Woman Who Rode Away (1928)


I did read:
Apocalypse (1931)

3 Travel Books - D.H.Lawrence in Italy -

Twilight in Italy
Sea and Sardinia
Etruscan Places

Read in part or intend to read:

The Complete Short Stories in 3 Volumes
Not all, but many so far; hope to read them all.

Complete Poetry of D.H.Lawrence
Read the majority, but not all; will eventually.

Various commentary/critical analysis books, articles by Lawrence, in part. Most articles were from:

Selected Literary Criticism

Did read in full -

3 Biographies:

The Intelligent Heart by Harry T. Moore
The Life of D.H. Lawrence

The phoenix and the flame: D.H. Lawrence; a biography
By Trease, Geoffrey, 1909

D.H.Lawrence
The Story of a Marriage
Brenda Maddox

Presently reading and intended reading:

Cambridge editions (more recent) Biographies

D.H.Lawrence The Early Years 1885-1912 by John Worthen

D.H.Lawrence The Life of an Outsider by John Worthen

The Selected Letters of D.H.Lawrence



Additional intended reading - anything I missed....;) !!!

I guess I did read a lot of L books and stories so far, huh....?

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Wow, that is very impressive Janine. You've read more than I have. I forgot to mention I have read many of the letters Lawrence wrote. Of course several biographies and a lot of critical commentary. But on the whole Janine I think you've read more of Lawrence directly than I have. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

I have about 150 more pages to read. I am up to the part when Miriam has brought Clara to Paul and they all take a long walk out in the woods.

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Wait, which woods scene are you at? Is it the one with Miriam and Paul or the one with Clara and Paul? Those are two radically different scenes, but I think two of the best in the book. Well, all of the second part of the novel is good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

Wait, which woods scene are you at? Is it the one with Miriam and Paul or the one with Clara and Paul? Those are two radically different scenes, but I think two of the best in the book. Well, all of the second part of the novel is good.

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Quark :lol: You are a riot! I think there is more than two 'woods' scenes. You must be thinking like a man (you mean the two 'sexual encounters in the woods' scenes, don't you? ;) This one I am referring to seems pretty innocent - the three people (Paul, Miriam, and Clara) are just merely hanging out in woods or the glen taking a leisurely stroll.

So, Q, you liked the second half of the book best, eh? :) ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quark :lol: You are a riot! I think there is more than two 'woods' scenes. You must be thinking like a man (you mean the two 'sexual encounters in the woods' scenes, don't you? ;)

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For me, those are the only two scenes in the book, and I have the sexually suggestive words double underlined. No, really, I mean the scene where Paul and Miriam are walking to or from the chapel, and they have some intimate, yet totally platonic, moment which is very revealing of both their individual characters' and their relationship. The scene with Clara I was thinking of is what I guess would be their first date. They fall into some ravine and have a flirtatious (perhaps sexual) time trying to find their way back to the road. I thought both of them were finely written, and also, as I said, very revelatory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

This one I am referring to seems pretty innocent - the three people (Paul, Miriam, and Clara) are just merely hanging out in woods or the glen taking a leisurely stroll.

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I know what scene you're talking about. Yet, there isn't any sex in it, so my memory of it is kind of hazy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

So, Q, you liked the second half of the book best, eh? :) ;)

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Didn't you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Wow, that is very impressive Janine. You've read more than I have. I forgot to mention I have read many of the letters Lawrence wrote. Of course several biographies and a lot of critical commentary. But on the whole Janine I think you've read more of Lawrence directly than I have. :)

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Thanks Virgil,
Yes, once I started to tally it up, I was surprised myself. I don't recall if I read a few others - I mentioned that. I have a poor memory from years past. I know I was very 'taken' with L in my late 20's, early 30's.

Oh I forgot one thing - important thing, too.;)
I read:

Virgil's Thesis:
*Toward the Transfiguration: An Examination of the Use of the Transfigurative Experience in D. H. Lawrence’s Late Fiction.

*Definitely that has to be added to my reading list! A very worthwhile and helpful read!!! :thumbs_up

So, I wonder how close I am to my goal of reading everything L wrote. I don't think I will accomplish all 8, 9, or? volumes of his "Complete Letters" in my lifetime - do you, V?
...And who knows, more L manuscripts might surface, eventually. It could be an endless pursuit....like Lawrence's endless wanderings....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

For me, those are the only two scenes in the book, and I have the sexually suggestive words double underlined. No, really, I mean the scene where Paul and Miriam are walking to or from the chapel, and they have some intimate, yet totally platonic, moment which is very revealing of both their individual characters' and their relationship. The scene with Clara I was thinking of is what I guess would be their first date. They fall into some ravine and have a flirtatious (perhaps sexual) time trying to find their way back to the road. I thought both of them were finely written, and also, as I said, very revelatory.

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:lol: How funny, Quark, did you really underline them? haha:lol: You must have underlined a lot of stuff in "Lady Chatterly's Lover"....Which version did you read???...and if you have not yet, I can see you are heading out to the bookstore now to buy it....:lol:
So what do you think I am - a dirty old lady? Why of course, I liked the second half best. Afterall am a red-blooded American girl (or was a girl at one time)..., still 'red-blooded'! ;) :lol:

Quote:

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I know what scene you're talking about. Yet, there isn't any sex in it, so my memory of it is kind of hazy.

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:lol: oh, I see - this scene just does not stand out to you...yes, I see...hummm...dulllll...no sex in it.....
How old were you when you first read this book, Q ???....You were probably under your bed covers, living at home with your parents, with a flashlight and yellow highligher.:lol: :lol:

Quote:

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Didn't you?

---

Of course, I loved every minute of this book equally so...hahahaha!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

:lol: How funny, Quark, did you really underline them? haha:lol: You must have underlined a lot of stuff in "Lady Chatterly's Lover"....Which version did you read???...and if you have not yet, I can see you are heading out to the bookstore now to buy it....:lol:

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I actually haven't read Lady Chatterly's lover. Is it really as lascivious as it's early twentieth century critics condemned it as being? I'm running a google seach for Lawrence+Lascivious now to see what I turn up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

So what do you think I am - a dirty old lady? Why of course, I liked the second half best. Afterall am a red-blooded American girl (or was a girl at one time)..., still 'red-blooded'! ;) :lol:

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Janine, you're insulting my Victorian sensibilities. You're female not sexual. You're not supposed to think about those things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

How old were you when you first read this book, Q ???....You were probably under your bed covers, living at home, with a flashlight and yellow highligher.:lol: :lol:

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I finished reading it a few days ago, and, to be honest, I didn't get as much out of the second reading as I hoped. My conclusions are pretty much the same. It's certainly a good read, but I didn't gain much by the rereading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

I actually haven't read Lady Chatterly's lover. Is it really as lascivious as it's early twentieth century critics condemned it as being? I'm running a google seach for Lawrence+Lascivious now to see what I turn up.

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:lol: Come up with anything yet???? :lol: I really can't believe you have not read LCL - oh for goodness sake - first go out and buy a whole box of those yellow highlighters! Then be sure and buy the uncensored addition of the novel. There are several versions. I think I read the one that needed the box of highlighters!;) :lol:

Quote:

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Janine, you're insulting my Victorian sensibilities. You're female not sexual. You're not supposed to think about those things.

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Are you a 'male chauvinist pig'? Victorian sensibilities, my eye! I went to art college in the hippie era, baby!;) I might be 'older', but as long as I am still breathing, I can still be lusting and I can still use those bright yellow highlighters in my books! I even watch R-rated films...and I fast-forward a lot.....:blush::D

Quote:

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I finished reading it a few days ago, and, to be honest, I didn't get as much out of the second reading as I hoped. My conclusions are pretty much the same. It's certainly a good read, but I didn't gain much by the rereading.

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You know, seriously,:) I am seeing things I did not notice before. I think I am enjoying the book the same this time, if not better. I think, after reading several L bios, it makes a whole lot more sense to me and interests me more. Problem is during this read, I am definitely trying to figure out the characters and I am not wholly sure they can be figured out; just like figuring out L himself. He remains an enigma to me, in many respects, but I still love his work and admire his accomplishments. This novel is a young Lawrence work, one has to remember that, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

:lol: Come up with anything yet???? :lol:

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I did come up with this quote, "Lascivious! well, why not---? I can't see I do a woman any more harm by sleeping with her than by dancing with her...or even talking to her about the weather. It's just an interchange of sensations instead of ideas, so why not?". I think I can see where the novel goes from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

I really can't believe you have not read LCL - oh for goodness sake

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Prepare to be shocked: I have only read Sons and Lovers and The Rainbow. My list of Lawrence reads isn't so impressive. I'll probably read Women in Love before I read LCL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

You know, seriously,:) I am seeing things I did not notice before. I think I am enjoying the book the same this time, if not better. I think, after reading several L bios, it makes a whole lot more sense to me and interests me more. Problem is during this read, I am definitely trying to figure out the characters and I am not wholly sure they can be figured out; just like figuring out L himself. He remains an enigma to me, in many respects, but I still love his work and admire his accomplishments. This novel is a young Lawrence work, one has to remember that, too.

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Yes, there are things that I did take away in the second reading. I didn't mean that it was a total waste of time. As I talked about earlier, my reading of the novel changed a lot when I considered Paul's life in the context of his older brother's downfall. Previously, I had thought that Paul was somewhat content at the end. After I finished it this time, Paul's failure to make any lasting relationships with anyone else seems much more tragic than any professional success or personal identity he might have gained at the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

I did come up with this quote, "Lascivious! well, why not---? I can't see I do a woman any more harm by sleeping with her than by dancing with her...or even talking to her about the weather. It's just an interchange of sensations instead of ideas, so why not?". I think I can see where the novel goes from there.

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Well, Q, I am winding down now..... . . . . . . . . . .coffee must be wearing off..... . . . . . . . . . . :sick:

Was that a direct quote from LCL or did you make it up? Either way quite creative! I like that word "Lascivious!" so expressive, isn't it? Sounds like an Lawrence type word....rolls right off the tongue nicely.....poetic....
:idea: I just got a brainstorm. You know the way you list your favorite authors, in your 'Profile' page? You now need to add...", and Lawrence for his lascivious prose".

Quote:

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Prepare to be shocked: I have only read Sons and Lovers and The Rainbow. My list of Lawrence reads isn't so impressive. I'll probably read Women in Love before I read LCL.

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:eek: Yes, truly, I am 'shocked', with statements like the last one you made about this brilliant novel, S&L's - truly 'frivolous'....:(

But seriously, I would have to agree with you and say - first read "Women in Love". This is actually my favorite L novel. I read this one twice, as you can see I put an * next to it in my list. Hey, Quark, were you impressed with my reading list? I know...I did have a lot more years to read that much more L, than you would have yet. I am not really shocked, I was just kidding with you.... Afterall, when did you start reading - age 2? You are still a young pup; no doubt with your mind on going out til 2, drinking beer with your friends, chasing girls, --- then coming home to check to see who is on 'late night' Lit Net, and those that obviously do not have a 'real life'. ;)

Quote:

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Yes, there are things that I did take away in the second reading. I didn't mean that it was a total waste of time. As I talked about earlier, my reading of the novel changed a lot when I considered Paul's life in the context of his older brother's downfall. Previously, I had thought that Paul was somewhat content at the end. After I finished it this time, Paul's failure to make any lasting relationships with anyone else seems much more tragic than any professional success or personal identity he might have gained at the end.

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Whewwww...well, that is good to hear....I was losing hope in you..for awhile there.....Hope restored! Yeah!

Good observations and I would have to agree....the book is really tragic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janine

amalia, I am truly impressed with this reading list of yours - and at your age....wonderful!:thumbs_up I think you have plenty of time to catch up and read more L. or all of L's works.

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Thank you, and Virgil. My parents taught me to read from a tender age, and my constant problem is that I have no space to put the books I buy...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amalia1985

Thank you, and Virgil. My parents taught me to read from a tender age, and my constant problem is that I have no space to put the books I buy...

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Oh that is my problem too. I have a room that is considered my study and it is overflowing with books. And I still have put lots in plastic containers in the basement. I can't bare to throw any out.

Virgil and amalia, I third this! I have books everywhere, and now just picked up another free one at my library - it's an obsession and I love it! My room is hopeless and I keep tripping over them - sitting on the floors now. I recently tried taking some to the basement, but put them into small boxes only - about 10 at a time, and labeled the top of each, and I will probably put all these in a larger plastic one, so I can easily locate any book if I need it. I hate putting books away, because then later, I can't find them at all...like some of the L books, I am thinking I did read, but can't find presently - "Virgin and the Gypsy" for one.

Virgil, I looked at the short story online and read one page; thanks for posting that site! I know that it our other thread, but it seems quite interesting so far. I might stop S&L tonight, to squeeze in the story "Sun".

Who is D.H. Lawrence?:cool:

Whoops! I'll change that:cool: ekkkk:goof: hxzz:rolleyes:zx#zz%@"+haha .....oh .....s..o...r...r....y....

I must have been snoozing. I had you mixed up with some cute :brow: looking movie star named that!

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Originally Posted by Janine

Whoops! I'll change that:cool: ekkkk:goof: hxzz:rolleyes:zx#zz%@"+haha .....oh .....s..o...r...r....y....

I must have been snoozing. I had you mixed up with some cute :brow: looking movie star named that!

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:lol: Thanks.