I'm REEEALLY stuck on theme. Why would Salinger write this?? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE!! My analysis is due tomorrow and.. well.. i have NOTHING.
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I'm REEEALLY stuck on theme. Why would Salinger write this?? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE!! My analysis is due tomorrow and.. well.. i have NOTHING.
try spark notes.com it is great
Thank you very much for the link, THX-1138. It was very informative - and shocking. To think that some major work of literature are on that list seems unbelievable. I think I'll open a thread on banned books.
Sorry if this reply is a bit sketchy. I'm not quite sure myself.
As far as I know J.D Salinger was fairly sociable when he was younger. He was sent to military academy at a young age but got on well with people. I think he suffered from Post traumatic stress after serving in the war and that could have caused a lot of isolation later on in life. There's a part of the book where Holden feels as if he is drifting away when he's walking down the street. That is one of the symptoms of PTSD so it could be related to his experiences with that. Salinger himself really hated ''phoneys'' and he could apparently empathise with teenagers more because he thought of them as more honest. This reply is a bit rubbish I'm afraid. If you want to know more then you could read his biography or his daughter's book; Dream Catcher: A Memoir. It's very interesting! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;5058
the first part i'm not so sure .. but the individualism part i think i can answer... well holden in the novel is being alienated, and alienating him self. And the reason is because he tries so hard at first to conform, not be and individual , that he is being pushed away. That and the fact that he is not yet ready to be an adult. So acting so is causing others to alienate him. And those who do so he calls phonies.
I have to explain how setting plays a significant role, and how the city setting contributes to the theme. I have a few ideas but not enough to develop and entire essay. Any ideas?
As you said in the other thread, Holden is not ready to be an adult. And so it seems to me that - although NY is his home - he feels somewhat lost in this city, as lost as he feels concerning his existence. No place like the big, anonymous city to get lost in - and lonely. There are rather few friends he can turn to, and those he calls rather turn out not to be such good friends after all (Sally, Mr Antolini). The only one he can rely on is a child (Phoebe).
The time and the weather are important, too, I think. It's around Christmas, and if I remember right there is a lot of rain, which may add to his depression.
Hope I could give you a few ideas. For details I'd have to think harder... :)
Thanks that did help a lot.. I'm really not sure how to work this site... i found it on google. But thanks and if you come up with anymore let me know... I'll find it somehow
Why don't you bookmark the site? That's the fastest way to get here again. And for all other questions - you can always ask the mods or other members.Quote:
Originally Posted by amarie3o3o3
Concerning the Catcher: What are your own ideas? Have you got any special questions?
well i understand the whole catcher analogy. I took the cliff he's trying to save the children from falling off of as a symbol of catching them before they fall into adulthood. He shows this also when he's walking through New York and states that when he steps off a curb he's scared he will infinantly fall. So that made me think that falling to him is the transition into adulthood which he fears. And towards the end in the museum he says he pictures himself catching the person who graffitied "**** you" on the walls and punishing them himselves... But I'm stuck on the setting prompt
Yes, very good thoughts so far. And he feels depressed and lonely in the big city, as lost as he feels in the adult world. He makes a few attempts to behave like a "man" (the prostitute, trying to buy alcoholic drinks). But more often than not he is let down by the adult world (waiters who do not give him alcohol, Maurice) or by himself (he does not have intercourse with the prostitute). All that and his wish to get away from the city and get a job somewhere and live in a cabin show that he is not yet mature enough to enter the adult world. But he learns, and especially his little sister makes him feel his responsibility. There is a key scene at the end of the book. He refuses to have a ride on the carrousel in the park, and he watches Phoebe riding in the pouring rain. He knows now that living as a deaf-mute, i.e. without any social contacts, without having to communicate with the adult world, is not a solution.
If you have further questions, just ask. :)
I don't think Holden wants to enter the adult world at all. The setting seems to be a perfect example of a place where money talks and scumbags satisfy their vices. He feels lost because he isn't as selfish as everyone else and would rather go out west than continue torturing himself by staying near it. The attempts to "behave like a man" are more like last ditch efforts to curb his misery. His wish to move and eventually doing it is not a sign of immaturity; he left because he can't bring himself to work for money and make friends with people he doesn't like.
He doesn't leave after all. He stays and matures.
New to the forum and I'd like to say I've been enjoying it very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by barbara0207
The reason I'm here is I was looking for someone to discuss The Catcher In The Rye with. My main concern is his whereabouts while he is relating the story.
You say he didn't leave but the first and last pages lead me to believe he had some kind of breakdown and is recovering in California.
Thanks, Lonnie
Sorry, I only saw your post right now. Welcome to the forum.
You are right, he is recovering from some kind of breakdown but as far as I remember the text doesn't say where. What I actually meant is that he does not leave his family to live in some hut in California as he originally planned to do. When he takes resonsibility for his sister that seems to be the first sign of Holden growing up.
there is something stultifying about the atmosphere in the prep school isn't there.
Also, New York City is so important in the book it is almost another character. I always maintained that the late 40s -early 50s may have been the best era ever for that city(as far as I can tell from contemporary books, movies and plays.) The Catcher in the Rye evokes that time so beautifully.
But aside from the surly characters, the sleazy hotel bellman (elevator operator?) don't overlook the importance
of Central Park in the last parts of the novel. Remember Holden's asking about the ducks?
A quote from Mr. Antolini to Holden:
"Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. Happily, some of them have kept records of their troubles. You'll learn from them - if you want to."
Anyone care to list a few books that would fit this description?
okokok
Salinger's own Franny and Zooey
Faulkner - "The Sound and the Fury" (particularly Quentin's Section)
and
Shakespeare - "Hamlet"
One could easily say that the entire play (especially the title character) puts forth thousands of questions and offers very little in terms of conviction or certainty.
Does the book have to be written in first person and do you want examples where the character is troubled from the start and goes on a journey to sort themselves out or would you accept examples where everything seems fine at the beginning but then something happens to make the character question their morals?
ie Heart of Darkness is a great example of a character (Marlow) who has the 'mist lifted from his eyes'. And in recounting his story does the same to the narrator BUT don't know if this is what you mean as at the beginning both Marlow and the narrator were feeling pretty good about the world.
I have to answer some analytical questions for The Catcher in the Rye and I'm having a lot of trouble. If anyone has some answers, I would really appreciate it.
>What is the meaning behind Holden's obsession with everything staying the same?
>Holden is immature in many ways. Make an argument for why he acts so immaturely.
>The theme of mental instability is prevalent in the novel. Offer an argument to prove this theme.
>How is Phoebe a symbol of childhood?
Holden wants everything to stay the same because he is anxious about both sex and death. In a sense, he wants to stop time to preserve his youth, warding off death and the "maturity" that accompanies sexuality. You can see examples of these anxieties throughout the novel: his retelling of his little brother's death, how angry he gets about Stradlader trying to give his friend (I can't remember her name) "the time," his desire to be a "catcher in the rye." Holden's desire to stop time is a coping mechanism against his fears.Quote:
Originally Posted by bassistchick
Again, he acts immaturely in an effort to delay adulthood. By avoiding responsibility--avoiding his homework, getting kicked out of schools, going to New York--he's trying avoid sexuality and death. As for the whole "phony" thing, Holden insults other people's "fakeness" because he's fake himself. Ever hear the term "listen to someone's criticisms to learn their shortcomings?" Well, that's what Holden is doing; he's projecting his shortcomings on other people. Remember when he *****es about Ackley blocking his light? He does the same thing later to Stradlader. And remember all the lies he tells to the woman on the train? Holden is the "phoniest" guy in the novel.Quote:
>Holden is immature in many ways. Make an argument for why he acts so immaturely.
Read the last ten pages of the novel. There is narrative proof Holden is telling his story to someone in a mental institution. Also see the anxieties and projection I mentioned above.Quote:
>The theme of mental instability is prevalent in the novel. Offer an argument to prove this theme.
Sorry, I'm won't be nearly as helpful for this one, but I'll give it a crack. Holden sees Phoebe as a symbol for childhood because she's just that, a child. She's completely sexually unaware, and she's far from death. Holden admiration for her stems from his anxiety. Also, if I remember right, there's a scene near the end of the novel where Phoebe riders a carnival carousel, a sort of symbol for perpetual youth. I don't remember that much about Phoebe. Sorry.Quote:
>How is Phoebe a symbol of childhood?
Hope my answers are helpful and that they point you in the right direction. Best of luck! :thumbs_up
dont you think that he hates becoming an adult just because in the world of grown-ups many thanks are fake, phoney? remember his "even if you DID go around saving guys' livesand all, how would you know if you did it because you really wanted to save guys' lives, or because you did it because what you really wanted to do was be a terrific lawyer, with everybody slapping you on the back and congratulating you in court when the goddam trial was over, the reporters and everybody, the way it is in the dirty movies? How would you know you weren't being phony? the trouble is, you wouldn't."
(sorry for a long quotation)
i think he criticise everyone because he doesnt want to be like the rest of people he knows. and he gets very upset if a person he thought not a phoney turned out to be fake like the others.
perhaps that;s why he couldnt bring himself to call Jane.
Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar. Excellent book.
Generation X by Douglas Coupland. Also really good.
How would you rate Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye?
Has anyone read The Catcher in the Rye Please rate Salinger's novel.
..
eyemaker
it's been many years since I read The Catcher in the Rye. I would need to reread it to get into any in-depth conversations, but I do remember enjoying it.
I read it for bookclub and I really enjoyed it. However not everyone did in the group it was a 50/50 split
Catcher in the Rye is one of those books that can be great if you're reading them when you're 15 or so,and I really liked it the first time I read it,5-6 years ago,but after rereading it recently,I found it to be quite shallow in comparison to my earlier memory of it. Can't say it's one of my favourites.
Another Catcher discussion:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...hlight=catcher
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyemaker
It's easily my favorite coming-of-age novel, and as a teacher, it lends itself well to teaching symbolism. I read it in one sitting when I was fifteen (a long time ago now!) and have probably read it a dozen times since. In today's age with internet access and--at least in the US--an "anything goes and everything is accepted" mentality it has doubtless lost some of its edginess, but in my experience most kids still enjoy it. I know it had a significant impact on me--
http://wiredforbooks.org/ianhamilton/ second interview is about J D Salinger.
i see "poor, wouldnt recommend it" is in a tie for third place...i wonder how many more times i can go in and vote for that choice until its #1?!
An equal amount love it as those who hate it.
And that's the sign of a good book, books that appeal to everyone are by definition somewhat bland.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
I loved it :D Holden reminds me a heck of a lot of myself in many ways, I always find it helps if you can identify with or at least understand the protagonist.
Without the insight into Holden's thoughts on his existence this book would of been rather poor, its aptly named "The Catcher in the Rye" as this thought of Holden's really sum's him up and sum's up the whole point of the book.
honestly, i thought holden to be a bit too angsty for my taste. yet, for me, that is the pot calling the kettle black. the realism is in the angst; holden's suffering is mostly self-inflicted as is life for most teenagers. however, there is contribution from outside influences.
Can anyone please give me a thorough analysis of the philosophical concepts located in Catcher in the Rye??? I'm really struggling with this. Thanks!
Oh, that is a bit heavy for this time of night and I don’t think I have time for a thorough philosophical analysis, been a few years since I read it too.
The first thought that springs to mind is obviously the youthful rebellion against conformity. This is actually quite a constant theme in life I think, the youthful rebellion against the “rules” imposed upon them by their elders and the system.
I doubt it, but maybe you could extend this thought further to encompass a wider rebellion, a sort of counter-culture rebellion or even of the capitalist system? Doesn’t he go on about Hollywood movies at the start of the novel? Though, if I remember correctly I think this is a positive image, an older brother I think, so maybe that wouldn’t fit? The rebellion of youth certainly would. You could read that in a Freudian way too.
Good luck with it anyway.
"Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules."
That's the most important sentence in the whole book. It is a sentence that can be found on every page. And of course, Holden's reaction to old Spencer's philosophy is, "game, my ***."
[edit: Isn't it just wonderful that we here pride ourselves on reading the wisest writers of this world, some who have had their whole lifes work censored and blacklisted; and right here on this forum we cover up words and ideas. I can't even quote a book; quote a word that is now acceptable on TV and radio. If you're offended by seeing a synonym for butt, then you most certainly should not be reading the majority of the books discussed on this forum]
I am reading the book, finished half of it. I don't know the meaning of the title. Should I wait till the end? (Hope it is not a dumb question)
Wait...