suicides in novels

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Originally Posted by Jack of Hearts

Western conception of suicide seems to crutch on 'It's my life, I'll take it if I want to.'

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Yes, I hadn't thought of it like this before but based on your comment and those of others, this seems to be the underlying story that we are telling ourselves about ourselves.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

So, it seems you are saying there are issues with respect to suicide and its justification that are highly debatable and of critical moral weight. Do you not believe that novelists who make the best possible case for controversial stances on this issue might be furthering the discussion by actually portraying suicides and suicidal characters? And wouldn't many writers consider it their duty—a matter of artistic integrity—to make the best possible case for their characters' actions, whether or not they ultimately endorsed their positions?

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One should not assume that someone is exercising "artistic integrity", just because that person made a movie or wrote a story. I doubt there is even such a thing as artistic integrity. If artists are professionals, they realize that they are constructing a product they hope to market. I think the question of the thread is how do we treat suicide in literature? Has it become a quick, overblown, self-righteous solution? If so, I would like to pop some of that nonsense. The extreme case is suicides that are designed to politically punish adversaries.

Perhaps one needs examples from literature. I could mention Emil Miller's A Tangled Tale, which has a suicide in it, but maybe something else would be useful to discuss. I'm trying to remember the name of a Canadian movie I recently saw where the older man ended his life with an overdose of heroin provided by his relatives. He could have waited a month or two and died without the overdose. There is a youtube video of a copy-cat Buddhist suicide of a young man from India with a lot of self-righteous political rant at the end. One has to consider this "art" as well. There is dark comedy movie called "Four Lions" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1341167/) about a group of Muslins who messed up their suicide attempts although a bunch of innocent people were killed. I think that movie treated these suicides well because it made those committing suicide look like idiots.

I'm not promoting censorship. The market does an adequate job of censoring. I don't mind hearing a suicide story, nor even writing one. However, just because someone writes a story about suicide doesn't mean I have to accept it.

Despite opinions on the issues at hand, we can all agree cacians topic sparked most of our interest. 2000 views, 90 posts .
Well done.

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Originally Posted by hillwalker

So someone who has a 'physical' desire for release from this life due to pain or degenerative illness is exonerated from the sin in your eyes. How very kind of you. But someone with a 'non-physical' need, be it depression or loneliness or some mental illness or whatever, is not?

Empathy? Hardly.

But this thread is supposed to be about whether suicide should be written about in literature or not. We seem to be wandering off-topic.

H

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I am not advocating one's life against another. Taking one's life is tragic regardless but someone whose life is non existant because his or her disability is untreatable is better understood more then someone whose is life is shattered on hold for a bit because their lovers left them or because they have gone bankrupt . This someone is perfectally able to recover with the help of others. It is a wasted life if one is not seen to fight tragedy . Humans need to see that others fight life and go on to live a better life.
A story that tells me someone committed suicide is I think extreme radicalism and has no logic because fundamentally humans are readjustable. Humans are rational and can meet their dead ends with other alternatives because they have the power to think clearly and solve anything. A character that challenges death is a character that has more credibility then one who does not. It is what heroism is made off challenging the impossible and death is one of them.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

One should not assume that someone is exercising "artistic integrity", just because that person made a movie or wrote a story. I doubt there is even such a thing as artistic integrity.

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No one is making such an assumption, and it is clear you simply don't want to engage the questions I raised. I merely asked if making the best possible case for a suicidal character's thinking and motivations, that is, showing how such a character is aware of his/her own thinking and motivation about the contemplated act, might not further our understanding of a vital area of human experience and our ability to empathize with those among us in extreme emotional and physical distress. And yes, artistic integrity exists. In this case it might consist in doing one's best to see the act from the suicide's perspective, rather than using the character as a sock puppet to advocate for a particular moral or political position, as a source of superficial or lurid excitement because one believes it might sell books, or as a convenient way to tie up loose ends in a plot because one can't construct a better one. All of these latter options illustrate various deficiencies in artistic integrity.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I think the question of the thread is how do we treat suicide in literature? Has it become a quick, overblown, self-righteous solution? If so, I would like to pop some of that nonsense. The extreme case is suicides that are designed to politically punish adversaries.

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Obviously, like anything else, suicide will be handled well by some and poorly by others and one should distinguish between instances of the former and the latter. You seem interested only in the latter.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I'm not promoting censorship. The market does an adequate job of censoring. I don't mind hearing a suicide story, nor even writing one. However, just because someone writes a story about suicide doesn't mean I have to accept it.

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Whoever said you have to? You are attacking straw men of your own construction and seem to think you are making some kind of general point in doing so. I find no content in it other than the fact that you don't like stories involving suicide.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

No one is making such an assumption, and it is clear you simply don't want to engage the questions I raised. I merely asked if making the best possible case for a suicidal character's thinking and motivations, that is, showing how such a character is aware of his/her own thinking and motivation about the contemplated act, might not further our understanding of a vital area of human experience and our ability to empathize with those among us in extreme emotional and physical distress.

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Hi Wyatt I do not understand what you mean by best possible case. Would you mind further explaining what you mean by this paragraph. Sorry I am understanding it sorry :)

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And yes, artistic integrity exists.

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Intergrity has no duplicity. It is an alone serving/standing concept. Committing suicide is duplicity because has to rely on it to help him her achieve their ends.

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In this case it might consist in doing one's best to see the act from the suicide's perspective,

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suicide is extremely intricate and very personal to each individual. One case does not could not explain to all its distress. No one could ever know what the suicide went through because they are no longer. To imagine a suicide in a book is to play on clichés of what others might have suffered and therefore it is not recognised as dealing with the issue but more propagating its distorted reality/myth.
A person who has not experienced suicide may never vouch for others who have gone to it and died.

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rather than using the character as a sock puppet to advocate for a particular moral or political position, as a source of superficial or lurid excitement because one believes it might sell books, or as a convenient way to tie up loose ends in a plot because one can't construct a better one. All of these latter options illustrate various deficiencies in artistic integrity.

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I am not so sure a character advocates whatever it is act or not because as soon one is involved it becomes fictional and nothing else that is the idea of a story. to take suicide which a distressing reality and to imply it as being fiction is not the right way to go about it because it is a very much palpable frightening reality.

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Obviously, like anything else, suicide will be handled well by some and poorly by others and one should distinguish between instances of the former and the latter. You seem interested only in the latter.

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Suicide in my views could never be handled well. It is impossible how is death handled well?

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Whoever said you have to? You are attacking straw men of your own construction and seem to think you are making some kind of general point in doing so. I find no content in it other than the fact that you don't like stories involving suicide.

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I am no sure liking the story is what it is all about. I am questioning the validity of suicide within a story. Why prolonge its agony again and again in stories when life is littered with it. I do not get this concept of agonising over it when one does not know what it actually feels to commit suicide. A writer is in my views not well placed to write suicide as a fait du jour is because he or she has not experienced it. That that is integrity mystified because unless on has lived it then I am afraid it has to be pure speculations and the wrong ones no doubt.

Cacian, so correct me if I'm wrong. Are you proposing it's not possible to write about suicide, because the only people who know how it feels to be suicidal have committed it? That since the writer is alive, they must use cliches and speculation on the matter?

...seriously?

Not everyone who is suicidal commits suicide. Further, there's many people who attempt suicide and fail. So, are they simply speculating too? Point is, there are plenty of people who have experienced enough emotional distress to probably relate an original, genuine struggle with their suicidal depression, without being cliche.

It doesn't sound like you've ever been suicidal, for that I say congratulations. But plenty of others have, and have valid statements, feelings, etc. to discuss it.

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Originally Posted by cacian

I am no sure liking the story is what it is all about. I am questioning the validity of suicide within a story. Why prolonge its agony again and again in stories when life is littered with it. I do not get this concept of agonising over it when one does not know what it actually feels to commit suicide. A writer is in my views not well placed to write suicide as a fait du jour is because he or she has not experienced it. That that is integrity mystified because unless on has lived it then I am afraid it has to be pure speculations and the wrong ones no doubt.

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So, Cacian, do you think a detective-story writer should write about murder only if he has actually murdered somone? This could create a new motive!

It seems to me that fiction differs from autobiography.

You're really offensive Cacian.

Well I'll just write a fictional story on incest since I know all about it first hand and am an authority on it. Will you wrinkle your nose up at that or give me the author some respect or will you fall back on your theory that the world should be all flowers and bubble gum in literature and art and there is no place for such distatesful realities either?

How dare you insult those who have been touched by such tragedies with your pathetic theories and low level thinking. Go find la la land and pedal there as fast as you can. Who knows? You might be the most literate and intelligent one when you arrive - that is if you don't get hit by a double decker on your way there (because they're real too and feature in literature and art in case you want to start a thread objecting to them!)

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

No one is making such an assumption, and it is clear you simply don't want to engage the questions I raised. I merely asked if making the best possible case for a suicidal character's thinking and motivations, that is, showing how such a character is aware of his/her own thinking and motivation about the contemplated act, might not further our understanding of a vital area of human experience and our ability to empathize with those among us in extreme emotional and physical distress. And yes, artistic integrity exists. In this case it might consist in doing one's best to see the act from the suicide's perspective, rather than using the character as a sock puppet to advocate for a particular moral or political position, as a source of superficial or lurid excitement because one believes it might sell books, or as a convenient way to tie up loose ends in a plot because one can't construct a better one. All of these latter options illustrate various deficiencies in artistic integrity.

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I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You may not believe that, but I am really trying to convince myself. I have learned something about "artistic integrity" from you because you mentioned the phrase and I hadn't thought of it before. Indirectly, you convinced me it doesn't exist. I know that wasn't your intent, but it doesn't matter.

I find your views interesting and I would like to continue discussions with you. It is unlikely that I will agree with you. Who cares? How boring would it be if everyone agreed with everyone else? What would we learn from the discussions?

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Obviously, like anything else, suicide will be handled well by some and poorly by others and one should distinguish between instances of the former and the latter. You seem interested only in the latter.

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For me that is what I like about this thread: examine the ways suicide is treated poorly and avoid them. Why should one avoid them? To make our products more marketable because they will be more enjoyable to a broader audience.

Admittedly, I am also concerned that young people are not deluded by the self-righteousness that centers around suicide. I don't want to encourage those stories in any way, nor would they be easy to market.

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Whoever said you have to? You are attacking straw men of your own construction and seem to think you are making some kind of general point in doing so. I find no content in it other than the fact that you don't like stories involving suicide.

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How do you know I don't like stories about suicide? I'm actually quite fascinated by stories of suicide where I can detect self-righteousness involved either with the author portraying the character in a negative way by saying the character committed suicide (Anna Karenina) or when those inane suicide-terrorists are allowed to express themselves as long as they are presented in an inane manner.

What I don't like are stories that are boring about suicide--or stories that propagate self-righteous fantasies.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

You're really offensive Cacian.

Well I'll just write a fictional story on incest since I know all about it first hand and am an authority on it. Will you wrinkle your nose up at that or give me the author some respect or will you fall back on your theory that the world should be all flowers and bubble gum in literature and art and there is no place for such distatesful realities either?

How dare you insult those who have been touched by such tragedies with your pathetic theories and low level thinking. Go find la la land and pedal there as fast as you can. Who knows? You might be the most literate and intelligent one when you arrive - that is if you don't get hit by a double decker on your way there (because they're real too and feature in literature and art in case you want to start a thread objecting to them!)

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I am always amazed when people who are supposedly writers block out people they disagree with. These are the ones you should be paying especial attention to. They provide you with prompts.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I am always amazed when people who are supposedly writers block out people they disagree with. These are the ones you should be paying especial attention to. They provide you with prompts.

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Oh so now you've got a basket of supposed writers that should behave in a certain way. Did you get that from another story you were told? :frown2:

Suicide represents the ultimate freedom in life. What other power do we have over our lives? We choose a job like we choose which bars in a cage to lean on.

We choose what to do within the limitations put in place by others.

I saw a sign the other day that said democracy is freedom. I asked for who? The masses but not the individual.

Cacian is obviously sheltered and to some degree shallow. It's like she wants literature to mirror some dreamworld dystopia where she's chancellor of morality and everything is kept in order with good, clean, literature.

Suicide happens. It's devastating to families and friends and no one has any right to say it shouldn't be written about. Especially for the stated reason that no one can do it accurately. It's called imagination.

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Originally Posted by cacian

Hi Wyatt I do not understand what you mean by best possible case. Would you mind further explaining what you mean by this paragraph. Sorry I am understanding it sorry :)


Intergrity has no duplicity. It is an alone serving/standing concept. Committing suicide is duplicity because has to rely on it to help him her achieve their ends.

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To commit suicide is to be duplicitous? Please do elaborate.

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suicide is extremely intricate and very personal to each individual. One case does not could not explain to all its distress. No one could ever know what the suicide went through because they are no longer. To imagine a suicide in a book is to play on clichés of what others might have suffered and therefore it is not recognised as dealing with the issue but more propagating its distorted reality/myth.
A person who has not experienced suicide may never vouch for others who have gone to it and died.

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People who have attempted suicide and failed know what its like to go through what a person who committed suicide did. And since when does an artist need to experience for him or herself what each character has experienced? Can male authors write female characters? Can someone who has never gone to war write of war? I don't see your point here.

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I am not so sure a character advocates whatever it is act or not because as soon one is involved it becomes fictional and nothing else that is the idea of a story. to take suicide which a distressing reality and to imply it as being fiction is not the right way to go about it because it is a very much palpable frightening reality.

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This simply makes no sense. Literature is full of "frightening palpable realities." To exclude them would be to do away with much of the canon.

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I am no sure liking the story is what it is all about. I am questioning the validity of suicide within a story. Why prolonge its agony again and again in stories when life is littered with it. I do not get this concept of agonising over it when one does not know what it actually feels to commit suicide. A writer is in my views not well placed to write suicide as a fait du jour is because he or she has not experienced it. That that is integrity mystified because unless on has lived it then I am afraid it has to be pure speculations and the wrong ones no doubt.

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Again, since when does an artist need to experience everything he or she portrays? I see no basis to this contention. Its silly to me.

I did not see Cacian trying to get suicide out of the literature scope. She is simply telling the way she feels it. She will never present the case as censorship. Thar's all.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I am always amazed when people who are supposedly writers block out people they disagree with. These are the ones you should be paying especial attention to. They provide you with prompts.

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YesNo, I don't think anyone is trying to block out anyone. It's just aggravating hearing Cacian try to propose suicide in literature is in general, poor writing. It seems she wishes to ban it from being written about, which is ironic considering she posted in one thread that the greatest sin of all was "banning"...frankly, I'm more of the opinion she just likes to argue for the sake of argument, which I also think some others on here feel this way, with due reason.

As for you, I've read your posts, and respect your opinion which seems to be if I'm correct: I can enjoy a novel/story that contains suicide if it's written well, without supporting suicide. I agree to this. But that doesn't seem to be the point Cacian was bringing across in her original post, which was: "suicide as a whole is distasteful."

This thread should have been started in philosophical literature, because we're not arguing quality of writing here, were arguing morality.