The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Yanni,

The music I am refering to were symphonies, masses and orchestral music (but not chamber music). This had been last fully inventoried in 1784 at Bonn. After which time and until 1794 it was kept up to date by a book updated by the Kapellmeister Luchesi (today held at the Estense Library of Modena in Italy - reference C.53.01). In that year of 1794 this great mass of music was removed from Bonn so that it did not fall into the hands of the Napoleonic army. By the time it finally arrived in Modena (years later) no less than 9 symphonies were discovered to have had most of their paper covers torn off with the names of 'Mozart' written on each of their title pages and the same of various works now said to be by 'Haydn'. As the music library at Modena clearly shows.

Below the 'Prague' Symphony at Estense Library now attributed to 'W.A. Mozart'

2 Samuel 6.14

''And David danced before the LORD''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-y5leAJm6I

Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

...and Luchesi was Cocchi/Cocceji/Koch's pupil.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

Yes indeed. Since the aristocratic patrons of Beethoven had been the same aristocratic patrons of Mozart. Visitors to Prague in those years included Abbe Vogler, Constanze Mozart, the biographer F.X. Niemetscheck etc etc. Plus Lichnowsky, Waldstein etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Dont't know about David but the fact is Beethoven visited his Koch/Cocceji's Prague twice during that period, 1796 and 1798.

Allelujah (from grk αλληλουχία).

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Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

Here is a little something to cure your homesickness, Gilliat:

The automatic translation of the polish text above via google....

After signing (subscribing) chamber (peace) in (to) Tylży, in the course of return to paris, it has stopped in (to) Głogowie Napoleon Bonaparte, emperor of frenchman happened . It has moved in fortress to just afternoon (south). In the midst generalicji and it has reached officers before bridge from part of serb put sztabowych, triumphal gates. With speakers Duroc and it has gotten back speech of welcome of mayors Murat and commander. It has not accepted gilded keys to cities prepare for silver tray < such >. It happened among rumble on axes and beating of (scrambling of) church bells were directed for lock (castle), where imperial headquarters przyszykowano. Emperor has been nourished in the midst of closest here, then, < sweat > it has handled (has settled) current mail and it has left (has gone out) for anticamera where they waited local < local > notable. Order of red eagle has returned monarch note among they by hinged (suspended) on tail coat, aged president of regency has returned monarch note by hinged (suspended) on tail coat order of red eagle they Carl Ludwig von Cocceji.Wśród, aged president of regency Carl Ludwig von Cocceji. Has remained for along with in city days young officer royal to the end Zesłany Głogowa wybranką Barberiną Campanini. Though it must leave relationship (association) for which (who) over oder over 50 lat (summer; year) berlin not survive long spend von Cocceji.

...in urgent need of improvement!

Competent translators wellcome!

An appropriate piece by Beethoven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn9U2...eature=related

(True musicologists will have no more difficulty identifying his Leonore-the same as EAPoe's).

Even if Glogau was supposed to be delivered to Prussia following Tilsit it never really was:

According to a secret .... Treaty between France and Prussia. September 8, 1808.De Clercq, Traites, II, 270-272.

His Majesty the Emperor of the French, King of Italy, Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine and His Majesty the King of Prussia, wishing to remove the difficulties which have occurred in the execution of the treaty of Tilsit, . . .

The places of Glogau, Stettin and Custrin shall remain in the power of the French army until the entire discharge of the h(b?)ills of exchange and the land notes given in payment of the contribution mentioned in the first article. . . .

His Majesty the Emperor and King guarantees to His Majesty the King of Prussia the integrity of his territory, on condition that His Majesty the King of Prussia remains the faithful ally of France.

His Majesty the King of Prussia recognizes as King of Spain and of the Indies His Majesty Joseph-Napoleon, and as King of the Two Sicilies His Majesty Joachim-Napoleon.

Hi Gilliat,

1068 musical greetings !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abXo...eature=related

Robert

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Gentlemen, it's nice to have you bach !
I was feeling a bit homesick.



Gilliatt

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With Baron Bagge-Bach's ("Starot" of Courland!!) consent, the separation of Handel/Bach (publishing of "their individual" works) began 1817-18 with Beethoven* actively involved, while Mozart (as Nissen) with Constance were still having trouble "creatively" editing the prodigy's correspondence accordingly and while Merlin publications in Paris were "editing" PM Hennin's correspondence to "fit" etc etc etc.

hakuna matata!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLP5xRCLBXs

*Coincidentally born in the same house in Bonn (Bonngasse 515) with Johann Peter Salomon, Joseph Haydn's alleged agent in London (91-92).

Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

Bach was not "buried during his life time", as you write Robert. He was enjoying himself in London as Handel (with two links on record to Dr Antonio Cocchi-Koch).

Moreover he was christened by a Koch, cooperated copying music with another "cantor" Johann Sebastian Koch, Giovannini-Saint Germain("Koch") left his mark on his wife's music buechlein and, finally, biography wise was first "established" in print, 1802*, via the testimony of Wieland(Rousseau-"Koch") , Wilhelm Friedman and Johann Christian Bach(another "Koch", possibly the same as the previous AND the next) to Forkel/H.C.Koch (Rousseau/abbe Vogler/Cocceji/Haydn/Koch**).

To say nothing (more) on Handel/Bach' s simultaneous cataract operation or the fact that "their" presences and careers were checked thru in my timeline.

No reason to stop enjoying "his" music though!

Regards.

PS The prize set in "The puzzle of Beethoven Koch's " is hereby withdrawn, as no "Koch" genealogist or musico(i)logist has exhibited the slightes interest to claim it by contradicting my findings!

:angel:


* He (his music) existed until then only thanks to "a" largely still unknown "Marpurg" (=Rousseau, see http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/marpurg.html) .

**Another fascinating element in the opera is Haydn's choice of keys. In 1768 Jean-Jacques Rousseau had developed a table with the characteristics of different keys. His thesis was that F and the flat major keys express gravity or majesty and the sharp major keys brilliance or joy. Abt Vogler and H.C. Koch argued that keys which used many open strings on the violin had a much brighter, sharper sound whereas keys using closed strings had a darker sound. Haydn's choice of E flat major for Orpheo's final aria is daring and imaginative. Rather than using a minor key, Haydn has combined this dark sound of E flat major with unforgettable orchestration, such as the bassoon which almost wails in accompaniment to Orpheo's grief.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes, Yanni, I think you have a fair idea of what happened in the case of Mozart and Beethoven (plus Haydn). Pity about Bach though you may, eventually, agree him to have been the exception to the rule. Buried during his own life and for more than half a century more after his death under the icons of the emerging music industry. Simply ignored by Vienna 'city of music' until, until, until finally he could be ignored no more.

J.S. Bach
Prelude & Fugue No. 18 in G-Sharp Minor
BWV 887
Angela Hewitt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtD8BW5P1ts

Regards

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Yanni,

God gave you two ears. Please use them. You will discover G.F. Handel and J.S. Bach were two different people. And these ears of yours, in the case of Bach, are both invited. In fact, it can't start without them !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyev_...eature=related

Regards

Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's* "Bach"!


*The basic similarity between Koch and Marpurg is their belief that dissonant chords are generated by the addition of intervals below the fundamental seventh chord ... .14

We should always listen with our heart Yanni. In some cases our ears help.

:bigear:

When politics, the banking system, organised religion, (the entire world fails), there's always music. Speaking of which -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF-p_...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Using what's between one's ears is the only way to your puzzling-syntax wise-"it", Robert.

Same for Marpurg/Koch's "Bach"!

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Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLx...eature=related

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Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

Yes indeed Yanni !!

BWV 1050/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zLqa...eature=related

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Not the "entire world" Robert, just the part that follows the wrong "music"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmLx...eature=related

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Ambrose Bierce defined politics as a "strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage."

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ie "Correctly following the right path brings fullfillment" quoting Christoph Martin Wieland, Prussia's first translator of Shakespeare, considered the founder of German opera today, who ended his life, fullfilled, in the serenity of his Oßmannstedter Gutshof "Osmantium" 1813....allegedly*!)

Anyway............................................ ........................................

You'll agree no doubt that instead of the Brandenburg concerto, Brockes-Marcus passion by Handel/Bach is better suited to end the subject, Robert!

Composed by Georg Frideric Handel - London, c1715-1716 ?
1st performance: Hamburg ?, date unknown (possibly March 23, 1719 at Hamburg Cathedral)
Performances by J.S. Bach:
1st performance: Good Friday April 8, 1746 - Leipzig (prepared for performance by J.S. Bach)
2nd performance: Good Friday August 1748 - October 1749 - Leipzig
Pasticcio Passion, based on Markus-Passion by Friedrich Nicolaus Brauns [previously attributed to Reinhard Keiser] with insertion of 7 arias from Brockes Passion by G.F. Händel - Good Friday April 31, 1747 or April 12, 1748 - Thomaskirche, Leipzig .

See also:http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Bra...h-Nicolaus.htm

I very much doubt however that Bach himself conducted the 1748-49 Church choirs. His son Johann Christian "Bach" (aka Gluck/Hasse/Koch etc) was present and acted on his behalf (signatures on what survived from the ledger of receipts of The Nathan Bequest/Thomaskirche/Leipzig ).

Regards!

PS Should you decide to question oncemore Handel/Bach's eventual use of a helicopter in his travels to and from, don't forget to take into account the calender differences (lasting to 1750).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PBYVAB23o

*Wieland only lived there 1797-1803 acc to german sources (who do not reveal what he did next however).