The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

My sympathies and apologies to all true students of music and/or history for their hours spent in vane attempting to solve 18th century puzzles by using available, well coordinated but poorly supported, relative groveling encyclopedic garbage, a true labyrinth today.

A rare source linking 18th cent music to corresponding historical developments is http://www.musicandhistory.com/pdf/1791-1800.pdf the authors of which would certainly benefit by including in their database many references to music included in my research on Gioachino Cocchi (such as for instance "van Swieten's" Paris presence and theatrical performances with Mme D'Epinay and her "circle", ie Cocchi- as "Rousseau", "Grimm", "Magnanville", "Dupin de Franceuil", "von Gleichen" etc -that are not included, and many others as well) and his aliases, keeping always in mind that not only did he lie about them and their whereabouts but is also taken as a "source" by his globalist followers.

Correcting this over two centuries old-and still continuing- fabrication is not the job of one person I am afraid, but calling things by their name is.

While Paris was in flames and "the people" decapitated the royal couple, "Haydn-Philidor" (physically present) and "Gluck-Sarti-Dussek"(their works) Cocchi was in London*, a guest of the Regent.

But who am I to judge him, his unique character, talent, intelligence and the use he made thereof? He changed the world indeed, for better or worst is anybody's guess: Nobody alive today was there when it all happened.....

.....and I was born with a bias against classical music!

*He crossed the channel, at least once, shortly before or after the storming of Bastille 14th July, 1790 to introduce Napoleon to his circle in Paris partying afterwards at Mme De Stael's. As "abbe Raynal"!

Yanni,

Would you provide (or direct me to a link of) a list of all known aliases of Cocchi? How many aliases did he have? I ask this in all sincerity.

Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

There may be a faster solution. Yanni can list the composers, diplomats and philosophers associated with Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven who were NOT G.Cocchi. :wink5: That list will surely be far smaller. Cocchi will then be credited with writing several thousand operas, symphonies, sonatas, books on philosophy and countless other acts of diplomacy. His statue would dwarf that of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. on Easter Island and it would literally tower over the pagan landscape. The tourist industry would love the idea of discovering a giant new and till now undiscovered planet in the musical, diplomatic and philosophical firmament.

But that's precisely the problem we wish to avoid ! Unless we are inhabitants of Babylon, ancient Greece, Sumeria or Easter Island.

:leaving:

Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

---

How many Niessens and Rossinis do you now count, count?

Re "Rossini the first": Please give my regards and esteem to your partner in manufacturing, "scholar" Trombetta, for his ancestor Giuseppe (husband of Mattei) who, as alleged comanager with his wife (acc to Burney)of the King's Theater,first brought Cocchi to London in 1757 (The Quarterly Musical Magazine and Review (5), by Richard MacKenzie Bacon, 1823).

According to Paul Brenac however, Cocchi himself was the manager of said Theater: ....part pour l'Angleterre en 1757 et dirige le King's Theatre jusqu'en 1762.

...and Giuseppe "husband of Mattei" was of "unknown background" and "Gluck's" Mme Mingotti (the v.d. transmitter perhaps of 1747?) was nearby at the time(Fashionable acts: opera and elite culture in London, 1780-1880 by Jennifer Hall-Witt*, 2007- Appendix C)

...and Columba Mattei, a mere opera singer, was lodging with the "London Bach"** for a while-ie "Baron Bagge" ie "Koch" (JC Bach's Creativity Pattern (Gardner-style))...

...as she did shortly before...

...Columba resided in Milan, 1754 with another "Giuseppe", Ferdinando Brivio, who....was reimbursed for lodging Leonardo Leo (1740), the choreographer François Sauveterre (1748) and the prima donnas A. Conti (1753) and Columba Mattei (1754) at his residence in Milan. No known documents, however, verify his death in 1758, and no evidence has been found to link unequivocally some of the instrumental music published at Paris and London (1730–63) under the name Brivio with Giuseppe Ferdinando.

...and guess whom Brivio's works leads to....

A small world, a big pile, surely...you guessed it (and you and cousin Trombetta both are over your heads in "it"!)

You have been great fun, Bobby, now run along, little Mozart is waiting and....caveat emptor.

:banana:



* " . . . scrupulously researched, sharply focused. . . [an] admirable piece of scholarship.”—Times Literary Supplement... and yet, following the trend, she as well buries "Koch" completely.

**J.C.Bach, Mozart's, Wendling's and Gallini's "Bach" who moves to London in 1762, stays there until death, his fragile health suddenly declining in 1781 ("JC Bach’s Creativity Pattern, Howard Gardner’s Approach to Creativity Analysis": Indeed that's when the "pile's" creation started and it's still analysed by professionals!:biggrinjester:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?

---

So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a...eature=related

Regards

A "simple answer" depends on the total number of Cocchi's aliases you, Trombetta and the rest of the keepers have hidden in your "pile", doesn't it?

I have just pulled out another couple or two in previous and you didn't feel a thing, that's "how many"!.

:banana:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

---

Why not thousands upon thousands, count Bob?

Its your (and Trombetta's) pile to keep afterall, you may do whatever you like with it, with permission from your masters ofcourse.

Just keep you nose above the surface and hold your mouth shut if you can.

...and bear in mind while counting that "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!" lists as #17 among 343000 google search results for "Beethoven+Koch"

Again my regards to you, my modest distant cousin Trombetta-Koch and poor Niessen-Mozart*!

*In memory of Heinrich Henkel(born 1822), pianist, owner of many Mozart manuscripts, first to claim that Mozart and Niessen shared -not just the same wife but-the same handwriting.

:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a...eature=related

Regards

---

And how many references are there to Beethoven/Mozart ?
Or Haydn/Mozart ?

I think this subject of Beethoven/Cocchi needs to be completely re-examined by you. But maybe you are the person who can finally do it.

Yanni, you were not born with an aversion to music. It may have been acquired. Anyway regards.

J.S. Bach
Concerto BWV 1058/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUGxK...eature=related

Let be of my aversions and tell your italian "Koch" friend to blow her trumpet on Cocchi's family.

Antonio Cocchi was married twice and had children from both marrriages, details exist but are off limits.

Otherwise there is nothing more to say on Cocchi's relations to Beethoven, Mozart and Goethe*, there were two or three "Koch" diplomats-musicians at the time and unless we know more details on all we'll be only guessing (or I'll have to spend another couple of years -or days-with my timeline).

Regards.

*For Goethe's relations to "Haydn" and "Von Gleichen" a separate puzzle is really required. Suffices here to say that the two in quotes were "very closely" related, almost identical. Goethe met "them" in 1810, February, ie shortly after Haydn "died"-ceremoniously-in Vienna . Eversince 1777 Goethe met "Grimm" as well: Ich fühlt’s so inniglich daß ich dem Manne nichts zu sagen hatte, der von Petersburg nach Paris geht. But perhaps Grimm-Goethe is another puzzle....

Having practically solved the puzzle myself with regard to the specific Cocchi aliases (Waldstein, Oppersdorf , F.J.Haydn etc) who guided Beethoven to his “Rise to fame. 1792-1805”, Vienna, I’ll now reduce and redefine it to focus merely on Beethoven’s earlier Bonn music and theatre tuition years as follows:

Beethoven “authorities” believe that certain individuals (in bold below), among others, were essential in Beethoven’s “manufacture” ( to honour british finess) for the period 1783-1792:

…. Großmann selbst blieb in Frankfurt; seine Frau reiste am 12. Oktober(1783) nach Bonn und übernahm dort die Direktion. Wir werden später sehen, daß der Knabe Ludwig van Beethoven oft am Klavier in den Proben dieser Gesellschaft, möglicherweise auch bei den Aufführungen, verwendet wurde. Aus diesem Grunde mögen auch die Namen derer, unter welchen er sich in dieser Weise bewegte und tätig war, soweit es möglich ist, aus dem langen Verzeichnisse der Großmannschen Gesellschaft im Theaterkalender für 1784 ausgesondert und hier verzeichnet werden.

Trans: ….Grossman himself stayed in Frankfurt; his wife travelled on October 12th (1783) to Bonn and took over the direction there. We’ll examine later how youngster Beethoven was employed, often at the piano during the rehearsals of this theater company and also, eventually during performances as well. For this reason we desire to name those under which he acted and was busy as above, as much as possible, from the long archives of the Grossmann company extracted from the theater calender of 1784 and here (below) noted.

Grossman (theater company general manager)

Musikdirektor: C. G. Ne ese. (Chistoph Gottlieb Neefe)

Mad. Cassini, gemeine, zänkische und Bauernweiber.(actress)

Mad. J.M. Neefe, geb. Zink, Mütter im Trauer-, Luft- und Singspiel.(actress)

Cassini, Bühnendirector, Gerichtsdiener, Hülfsrollen (stage manager, assist actor)


Tentative puzzle solvers are asked to find which of the above, if any, is a “Koch” and, if so, his or her real life identity and, if possible, his or her relation to Babette Koch-Belderbusch.

Puzzle awards for non Koch participants same as before. Kochs will now receive half of the previous amount, ie EUR 250.

References to guide the inexperienced few:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_de_l%27Oise)
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...neefe_engl.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...de_Belderbusch
http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Thayer,+...ationaltheater
http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenrise.html

Validity: Seven days as from now.

Enjoy!:smilielol5:


Seasons greetings to all.

Yanni,

I have the answer - it's quite wonderful too - and who will say it is not ?

Adagio e piano siempre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRoKK...eature=related

The problem and the resolution -

Larghetto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm0eD...eature=related

And -

Siciliano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flKa8...eature=related

//

Good company for musicologists in distress on their via dolorosa, heh-heh!

Best wishes to you Robert.