The Christian Hell

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Originally Posted by Delta40

RoB I am referring to religions in general. I mean that nothing can be perfect. Our creator is. We are not. Our interpretations and consequent formations of religions are not. They are flawed. Imperfect. They are as flawed as any other system we have created in our societies. We can strive to perfect what we have created perhaps. I'm not a philosopher. You seem like a deep thinking person. This is my understanding. It is arrogant to me to suggest that religion above any other system is perfect while nothing else is. It is not a judgment, simply an observation. call it a sociological one. I don't have the knowledge to discuss at a micro level how those systems are flawed but that isn't the point. It is fair to say such systems are not without flaws but it does not make them obsolete. They are still a necessary function despite their imperfections.

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If our Creator is perfect, and he told and instructed us to do certain things, does that make it flawed, or does it make it, since it was instructed by our creator, perfect?

You said:
It is arrogant to me to suggest that religion above any other system is perfect while nothing else is.

it is not arrogant at all! it is completely fine to say that! if it is true, then there is no arrogance in that.

my question is: what makes something perfect?


and just to get really really picky, you contradicted yourself:
nothing can be perfect. Our creator is. We are not.

so something CAN be perfect. (I'm sure you just love picky people, do you not? ;) ) it now all depends on what you define perfect as.

Lol Rob! My point exactly! Look at that - I am flawed!

I take it for granted that God is perfect, humankind is not, therefore anything created by humankind will be flawed. I'm sorry about my communication skills (they too are flawed) God can instruct humankind till the cows come home. Religion is a human-tainted system. Let me give you an example. I love my daughter very much. My love for her is immeasurable. I am however aware of her imperfections. Does this mean I should no longer love her? No. It means that I acknowledge she is not perfect but I adore her anyway.

Religion is the same. So is any social system

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I take it for granted that God is perfect, humankind is not, therefore anything created by humankind will be flawed. I'm sorry about my communication skills (they too are flawed) God can instruct humankind till the cows come home. Religion is a human-tainted system. Let me give you an example. I love my daughter very much. My love for her is immeasurable. I am however aware of her imperfections. Does this mean I should no longer love her? No. It means that I acknowledge she is not perfect but I adore her anyway.

Religion is the same. So is any social system

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yet another contradiction ;)
You said:
I take it for granted that God is perfect, humankind is not, therefore anything created by humankind will be flawed."

You could be saying one of two things:

1. God is a made up idea, and therefore since it was made up by mankind, it is flawed.

2. God is the only perfect idea created by humans.

Human kind is not perfect, you are absolutely right. So humans could not have made up an idea such as this. who could think of such an idea as this?

could you please define for me what perfect is. once you give me that, i can answer what you are saying more thoroughly

See Rush_of_blood - you've missed my point, like Skasian also missed my point.

I don't CARE about what you believe in. Believe in what you want, it doesn't bother me. But when someone is turning to me and telling me that I'M going to Hell because i don't accept THEIR beliefs - that is a lack of respect and acceptance.

It doesn't make sense for God to see us as his "children" ( and when i say God, i'm making reference to Christianity - not my God ) and yet be okay with us burning in hell and suffering. I find that you insult your own faith when you're pointing the finger at others and saying they're going to Hell for not believing. And you know what, it's scary stuff - it's frightening and it's cruel, telling others they're going to burn in Hell, please stop for a second and think about how messed up that even sounds...

When I say "you" i'm speaking in general terms.

Also i want to make it clear - i find Christianity flawed, but like i said earlier on, i'm talking about extremists. Most of my friends are Christians, not one of them believe i'm going to burn in hell because i don't support their faith.

And another thing, we as human beings have free will..

and yet - we supposedly get punished for exercising that free will? that's something else that just DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
Why doesn't it make sense? because in my opinion, the evidence is too overwhelming, to ever believe in such a place as Hell.

Why would a God punish me for using the tools he supposedly gave me?

Anyway i'm done with all of this, it's a waste of energy and time. I really don't want to hear about the millions of ways im going to Hell for not believing in a fairytale.

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Originally Posted by limajean

See Rush_of_blood - you've missed my point, like Skasian also missed my point.

I don't CARE about what you believe in. Believe in what you want, it doesn't bother me. But when someone is turning to me and telling me that I'M going to Hell because i don't accept THEIR beliefs - that is a lack of respect and acceptance.

It doesn't make sense for God to see us as his "children" ( and when i say God, i'm making reference to Christianity - not my God ) and yet be okay with us burning in hell and suffering. I find that you insult your own faith when you're pointing the finger at others and say they're going to Hell for not believing. It contradicts what your religions supposedly stands for. And you know what, it's scary stuff - it's frightening and it's cruel, telling others they're going to burn in Hell, please stop for a second and think about how messed up that even sounds...

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So, from your standpoint, what does our religion stand for?

You're perfectly right Rob. I am not philosopher material. You would do well to be in politics. There you would never have to answer a question directly! I know if i put a definition of perfection to you I will be stuck in more nitpicking discussion contests. It is a pointless pursuit. I would rather be happy than right. I think I said that somewhere before. I promise to visit your progress though because I like some of the things you say.

Rush - it certainly shouldn't stand for wanting to burn people in hell. That's not the type of Christian beliefs i associate, respect or accept.
Shouldn't God love all his children? no matter whether they accept him, love him, hate him - whatever it may be?

Like with every religion, there are people who - although may share the same faith, have varying beliefs. The belief that people will burn in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ insults the belief of love, healing, and freedom from suffering - which i know holds fast in many Christian foundations.
So i really can't understand why someone can say that God is loving, caring, everything we're not - yet he wants us to burn in hell for not accepting him?. Hmm.. right. I'm not insulting God when i say that, i'm insulting the people who believe that, and when you think about it, like i said before, you can't have much faith if you believe a "g\God" would do such a thing.
The belief that non believers go to hell is incredible flawed. It's used to incite fear. It paints god as a power tripping, monster.

And really, a rapist, a murderer - the scum of the earth can suddenly "find" god - and they get a ticket in to heaven? but the innocent kid/adult who may have his or her own set of beliefs burns for all eternity because jesus sounds just like another fairy tale to them..
makes sense doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by limajean

Rush - it certainly shouldn't stand for wanting to burn people in hell. That's not the type of Christian beliefs i associate, respect or accept.
Shouldn't God love all his children? no matter whether they accept him, love him, hate him - whatever it may be?

Like with every religion, there are people who - although may share the same faith, have varying beliefs. The belief that people will burn in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ insults the belief of love, healing, and freedom from suffering - which i know holds fast in many Christian foundations.
So i really can't understand why someone can say that God is loving, caring, everything we're not - yet he wants us to burn in hell for not accepting him?. Hmm.. right. I'm not insulting God when i say that, i'm insulting the people who believe that, and when you think about it, like i said before, you can't have much faith if you believe a "g\God" would do such a thing.
The belief that non believers go to hell is incredible flawed. It's used to incite fear. It paints god as a power tripping, monster.

And really, a rapist, a murderer - the scum of the earth can suddenly "find" god - and they get a ticket in to heaven? but the innocent kid/adult who may have his or her own set of beliefs burns for all eternity because jesus sounds just like another fairy tale to them..
makes sense doesn't it?

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i understand what you are saying, but my question is still unanswered. There are actually many questions that haven't been answered:

1) what is your standpoint on Christianity? what is the purpose of it?

2) what do you define good and bad as?

3) what are Christians copping out of?

4) what exactly are you looking for?

5) what would you like me to explain that i haven't in previous posts?

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Mal, your post really makes me shudder...

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Thanks Nikolai, for pointing out so nicely that I was going overboard. I think I need to stay out of discussions like this. All fundamentalist religions make me shudder, because they are so dangerous.
Way more than just flawed.

Anyway, no sense hurting people's feelings who feel justified in hurting mine, since they have a book and all. Can't argue with a book, no matter how crazy its ideas.

one more question, limajean:

do you support the death penalty?

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

Now see, this is where the logic does not follow. If there is no God ruling over us, then there is no morals. There is nothing that is able to tell us what is right or wrong, good or bad. The only thing we could rely on is human emotions, and if we relied on that, our entire world would be chaotic. So if there is no God, there is no morals.

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No, but it is another frequent flyer fallacy. One of the more naive ones, at that.

This is an argument from incredulity - because you believe morals cannot exist outside of a god's determination, you refuse to accept they exist at all.

Whether or not you agree with it, the thousands of studies into morality, altruistic behaviour and genetic success belie the fact that your answer is the only one. You might be right, but there are non-divine alternative views, and quite authoritative ones in many cases.

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

It does logically follow that once there are no morals, there is no right or wrong. There is no crime, and there is no punishment or justice.....you wouldn't need justice, because there is no right or wrong!!!

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And this one, the proof is simply in the pudding. If there were any truth in the assertion, jails would be chock full of atheists and secular criminals. Unluckily for the premise, they aren't.

As it happens, what statistical analysis there is of criminals, especially violent ones, tend to skew towards the theist side. But hey, don't let reality stand in the way of a good story.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I know nobody is taking note of what I say but I must say this. It is fair to say religion is flawed. I do wish to point out that all systems created by humankind are flawed. Democracy, communism, education, health, infrastructure etc. Religion is not an exception. Do flaws in a system make them useless and obselete?

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I'm taking note of what you say, but you haven't been controversial enough for me to reply to yet!

:D

In the above post, I'll agree wholeheartedly with with all human systems being flawed. Nobody's perfect, so no system designed by/for humans can be.

No, i do not support the death penalty.