should incest between brothers and sisters be legal?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Policing brother and sister incest. It can't be done. It would be silly.



How does any of the above equate with the Trust that is required in a family unit for it to function?

Do you have a Trust between your drink and yourself?

Do you have Trust between your smoking and yourself?

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nope, but e.g. if parents smoke inside their own home and their children are around and inhale all the second-hand smoke it harms the children. i.e. it is immoral, but it is not illegal.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

so, I'm 26, my bf is 27 we are not married and live together and if you were my dad you'd not allow it? ;)

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Well, I couldn't stop you, nor would I. But I would show my disapproval, yes.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, I couldn't stop you, nor would I. But I would show my disapproval, yes.

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heehee, well, if my real dad forced me to marry my hubbers this would mean that my hubbers would be legally obliged to feed me (which my dad is legally obliged to do until I'm 27 and still studying). my hubbers doesn't have enough money to feed me, so I'd have to claim welfare. so the state would have to give me money which had better go to ppl who don't have a rich dad. which would be very harmful for society. :D alternatively, I could sue my dad, which would be very harmful to the functioning of our family unit.. :D

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Originally Posted by chasestalling

Oh...I thought you meant between a nun and a monk in which case I would've said -- but never mind

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:p hmmm, ok.

Though I'll refrain from stating anything new, I'll just say thank you to Virgil for looking up and posting all the published info and to FifthElement, I very much agree with you.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

nope, but e.g. if parents smoke inside their own home and their children are around and inhale all the second-hand smoke it harms the children. i.e. it is immoral, but it is not illegal.

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Here in the UK smoking in public transports and council premises are illegal. This part can be policed.

But you can't equate immorality of incest with smoking second hand smoke?

That would be ludicrous won't it?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Here in the UK smoking public transports and council premises are illegal. This part can be policed.

But you can't equate immorality of incest with smoking second hand smoke?

That would be ludicrous won't it?

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yep it's illegal in public transport and buildings plus in pubs over here,too.
second hand smoke can cause cancer and result in the children dying a slow painful death. heheheh, but at least when they are dead they can't procreate and endanger the gene pool :lol: so I guess you are right, it's not comparable.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Yes. But it is also selfish.

No man or woman is an Island. We part of the main.

Our choices have consequences. Not only to ourselves and the society we live in.

There can be no absolute freedom.

Freedom needs to be moderated or else everything falls apart.

This " as long as it does not harm anyone..." ethos is flawed. It is short-sighted and selfish.

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Yes Lote, that's what I said too! See :

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

but one thing you can't choose to do is live in a moral vacuum,

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and

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I think the problem I have with your statement that it is 'My life, My body, My choices' is that, yes, it is true that you can choose to do anything, and humans have the ability to do a great many things, but included in that is a question 'just because we can do something does that mean we should do it? This is where morality comes in, and as a species (as all human societies appear to have laws/rules of some kind) we have chosen to say that somewhere we must draw the line.

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Do we agree? Oh goodness, I must be having a mental breakdown! (only joking :) )

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

yep it's illegal in public transport and buildings plus in pubs over here,too.
second hand smoke can cause cancer and result in the children dying a slow painful death. heheheh, but at least when they are dead they can't procreate and endanger the gene pool :lol: so I guess you are right, it's not comparable.

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I think you make a light of an issue of incest which is about trust in a family unit.

Without Trust family does not work.

My father smoked 60 a day. But his smoking did not break the trust that required in the family and none of us got cancer.

And neither did millions of others whose fathers smoked.

But if millions of others had incestous relationships?

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

I think you make a light of an issue of incest which is about trust in a family unit.

Without Trust family does not work.

My father smoked 60 a day. But his smoking did not break the trust that required in the family and none us got cancer.

And neither did millions of others who fathers smoked.

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but how does incest break the trust in the family unit when both partners are of age and consent? there is no rape, coercion, violence etc involved.
in this particular case, I think it was a good idea to take the children away from them, because their whole family was already dysfunctional even before the siblings had children. e.g. the brother (father) beat the sister (mother) but on the other hand, how will sending the father to prison for 2 years help the children? Also I wonder if this had happened in a middle class family which was otherwise not dysfunctional, i.e. where the is no violence involved and everybody's happy with the situation, would they be so ready to break up the family and put the father in prison?
edit: we're not talking about millions of others Lote, it's only like 1 or 2 percent of the population and due to the psychological factors that Virge quoted, making it legal would not result in an increase. However, I think vheissu was very right to point out that if the children grew up thinking that incest is OK, they might be more inclined to practice it themselves, so there would be an increase in the long run

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

heehee, well, if my real dad forced me to marry my hubbers this would mean that my hubbers would be legally obliged to feed me (which my dad is legally obliged to do until I'm 27 and still studying). my hubbers doesn't have enough money to feed me, so I'd have to claim welfare. so the state would have to give me money which had better go to ppl who don't have a rich dad. which would be very harmful for society. :D alternatively, I could sue my dad, which would be very harmful to the functioning of our family unit.. :D

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:lol: Well, the solution would be that you would have to live at home and hubbers would have to live at his parents. :p ;)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

but how does incest break the trust in the family unit

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It does because it is basesd on not wanting to have sexual relationship.

That is what distinguishes these types of relationship from others. This is the trust in the family unit. It is this Trust that we have evolved to respect with incest taboo. And the reasons for these taboos -others have given in plenty.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Do we agree? Oh goodness, I must be having a mental breakdown! (only joking :) )

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Don't worry it happens all the time.

But agreeing is boring isn't it? ;-)

I agree
You agree
End of debate.

See? :D

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I think the problem I have with your statement that it is 'My life, My body, My choices' is that, yes, it is true that you can choose to do anything, and humans have the ability to do a great many things, but included in that is a question 'just because we can do something does that mean we should do it? This is where morality comes in, and as a species (as all human societies appear to have laws/rules of some kind) we have chosen to say that somewhere we must draw the line. You can choose to sleep with your brother, that is true, but you must also accept that by doing so, if you do so in a country where it is illegal, you are breaking the law. You must also accept that whilst you may not understand the reasons why it is illegal, there may well be very good, very justifiable reasons why it is illegal. Just because you or I don't know what it is, doesn't mean it isn't there, which is the point I was alluding to in the beginning. It is difficult to debate because the reason we might not see the harm now, is because by making it illegal the harm that it causes is simply no longer visible to us. It is also difficult to draw the line by saying, it's okay so long as the two people don't have children. Biology is a tricky thing, what if there was an accidental pregnancy - the answer would be that either the baby is born, or the State forces abortion. Who would find forced abortion palatable? If the baby is born then so is the next one, and the next one. Where does it end?

This probably illustrates the problem with all laws. Either society deems that all things can be done, or it imposes limits. As soon as limits are imposed, because of the nature of such things, those limits will be imperfect. Some will want the line drawn here, others over there. It'll never be 100% right for everyone.

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This is a very wise post. Many times politics is argued in black and white extremes but the reality is that legislatures try to find a balance point. That results in a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing is that it tries to solve the problem where each side has some satisfaction. Unfortunately the bad thing is that it also creates cynacism because during politicing the values are promised in the absolute and the result is a comprimise.

Actually as a side note, i'm recalling two famous rock songs on that expresses such cynacism: The Who's "Wont Get Fooled Again",

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I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

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and The Rolling Stones, "Street Fighting Man":

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Hey! Think the time is right for a palace revolution
'Cauce where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
'Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No!

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Originally Posted by chasestalling

Oh...I thought you meant between a nun and a monk in which case I would've said -- but never mind

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HaHa, best line of the thread.

The crux of the situation is that incest "just isn't right". One of my coworkers was just telling me about his stint as a health inspector in the northwestern region of the US. In this day and age there are remote areas and towns that have a large percentage of birth defects due to inbreeding, this isn't a case of one generation this is a case of manay, many generations of inbreeding. The mind set in these communities is that they don't like strangers and they very much keep to themselves. The government agencies are fully aware of these situations. Even if you make incest illegal that won't stop the acts from happening.

Morality can't be legistlatively regulated.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

The crux of the situation is that incest "just isn't right". One of my coworkers was just telling me about his stint as a health inspector in the northwestern region of the US. In this day and age there are remote areas and towns that have a large percentage of birth defects due to inbreeding, this isn't a case of one generation this is a case of manay, many generations of inbreeding. The mind set in these communities is that they don't like strangers and they very much keep to themselves. The government agencies are fully aware of these situations. Even if you make incest illegal that won't stop the acts from happening.

Morality can't be legistlatively regulated.

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Ok, so let's say that 1% of the current population commits incest. What if legalizing it created a situation where now 10-20% might participate? Drug studies I've seen say that legalizing drugs increases the population's use. Once society removes boundaries of norms, then participation in that behavior goes up. As an anology, pre-marital sex was seen as immoral, and certainly it occured, but certainly not by everyone. But once that moral stigma was removed, everyone participates in pre-marital sex.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Ok, so let's say that 1% of the current population commits incest. What if legalizing it created a situation where now 10-20% might participate? Drug studies I've seen say that legalizing drugs increases the population's use. Once society removes boundaries of norms, then participation in that behavior goes up. As an anology, pre-marital sex was seen as immoral, and certainly it occured, but certainly not by everyone. But once that moral stigma was removed, everyone participates in pre-marital sex.

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See I don't even know, is incest currently illegal?