Drinking in Moderation

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Originally Posted by Sitaram

Socrates basically said it all, in Plato's dialogues, when he said (repeatedly) that "eveyone by nature desires the good." Carrie Nation desired the good. The bartenders desired the good. The alcoholics desired the good. Hitler and Mother Theresa both desired the good. Even those Christians that tossed you out THOUGHT that it was good, desired the good. For no one wittingly, consicously says, "this is not so good, but I desire it anyway." We always somehow see what we chose as the good, at least at the moment we are choosing it.

I am grateful for that interesting verse from Proverbs, and the historical aside about the bartenders use of a Biblical verse.

The Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition holds that, around the 8th or 9th century, the people of Russia sent emissaries to find the best religion. Legend has it that they entered Saint Sophias in Constantinople, and were awestruck, and chose Orthodoxy, and Sts. Cyrl and Methodius travelled to Russia to baptize the nation.

But someone else observed to me that the Buddhists and Muslims both forbade alcohol, but the Orthodox of Byzantium permitted alcohol, and this was the basis for the decision of the Slavic people to choose Orthodoxy.

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Cyril and Methodius had been converting heathens in Russ,(easten Austria an Russia) in 956 under reign of St.Olga,the first Russian ruler to embrace Christianity.
It was St. Vladimir The Great,(St. Olga's grandson)that sent an envoy to research neighboring religions (while he was still a heathen with intentions to expand his empire.)The envoy didn't like the Bulgarians who followed Mohammedan,the Jews of Khazan,or the German Latin rite,but was impressed with the Greek ritual(Liturgy)of the Byzantine.They also reminded him of his Grandmothers Christianity.
In 989 Vladimir sent an envoy to Emperor Basil II of Constantinople to ask for the hand of Basil's sister Ann under the threat of invasion if refused!Basil said,a Chritian coudn't marry a heathen,but if Vladimir was a Christian prince he would sanction a marriage.Vladimir agreed and was Baptised.

I think perhaps the someone that suggested that alcohol was in the mix may have been a fun loveing Slovenian?

While drinking alcohol beverages may not be wrong, King Solomon (the wisest man on earth) put it this way:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is lead astray by it is not wise" Proverbs 20:1

As Shea said, it is better to refrain from drinking wine and such, then to be a stumbling block. Just for a little bit of pleasure, one would cause a brother or sister of your faith to fall? No, I don't think so.

I think though, that not everybody agrees that Jesus drank wine. Some say that He drank grape juice, and others argue saying it's wine. Whatever it was- no point arguing about it, the fact still remains that if it is a stumbling block to others (as eating food offered to idols might be) refrain from it.

My dad used to drink wine, moderately of course. ;) But in the recent years, he has applied Proverbs, and not drank any. We are very thankful for it, that he can make a stand for himself and in what he believes.

As for Holy Communion, in my chourch, we normally just use grape juice more economical- besides not everybody drinks wine. :D

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

While drinking alcohol beverages may not be wrong, King Solomon (the wisest man on earth) put it this way:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is lead astray by it is not wise" Proverbs 20:1

As Shea said, it is better to refrain from drinking wine and such, then to be a stumbling block. Just for a little bit of pleasure, one would cause a brother or sister of your faith to fall? No, I don't think so.

I think though, that not everybody agrees that Jesus drank wine. Some say that He drank grape juice, and others argue saying it's wine. Whatever it was- no point arguing about it, the fact still remains that if it is a stumbling block to others (as eating food offered to idols might be) refrain from it.

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Quite so. I just gave the other quote (PROVERBS 31:6-7) as an example of how people can use the Bible to justify what they WANT to do, provided they read ONLY what they choose. I still stand by moderation if you must do it at all, but I agree it were better that you did not than to cause a brother to stumble. Paul calls this "uncharitible." :nod:

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

While drinking alcohol beverages may not be wrong, King Solomon (the wisest man on earth) put it this way:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is lead astray by it is not wise" Proverbs 20:1

As Shea said, it is better to refrain from drinking wine and such, then to be a stumbling block. Just for a little bit of pleasure, one would cause a brother or sister of your faith to fall? No, I don't think so.

I think though, that not everybody agrees that Jesus drank wine. Some say that He drank grape juice, and others argue saying it's wine. Whatever it was- no point arguing about it, the fact still remains that if it is a stumbling block to others (as eating food offered to idols might be) refrain from it.

My dad used to drink wine, moderately of course. ;) But in the recent years, he has applied Proverbs, and not drank any. We are very thankful for it, that he can make a stand for himself and in what he believes.

As for Holy Communion, in my chourch, we normally just use grape juice more economical- besides not everybody drinks wine. :D

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Grape juice requires a minimum of 1.5 cups of sugar per qt.of boiled off ,screened grape pulp to be palatable.Without refrigeration or proper containers the concoction would have been a recipe for botulism!
No one drank grape juice 2000 years ago,and for the ones that didn't drink wine their only option was water.

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Originally Posted by okmit

No one drank grape juice 2000 years ago,and for the ones that didn't drink wine their only option was water.

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This is interesting. I'm wondering, what's really the big deal if Jesus really did drink wine?

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Originally Posted by Okmit

No one drank grape juice 2000 years ago,and for the ones that didn't drink wine their only option was water.

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You are 100% correct. It would especially spoil in the climate of Isreal, where it was stored in either wineskins or earthern jars. Fermented grape juice (wine) does not spoil so easily. :thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by subterranean

This is interesting. I'm wondering, what's really the big deal if Jesus really did drink wine?

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An excellent question. Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. This was not "grape juice" since the man in charge of the feast told the bridgroom, "every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." St. John 2:10. The thing is, nothing states that Jesus got drunk. He drank wine with his meals, as they all did, but not just for the purpose of getting wasted. :nod:

Thank you Pendragon. Also, I need to comment a little about Adelheid's statement that,

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"Just for a little bit of pleasure, one would cause a brother or sister of your faith to fall? No, I don't think so."

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, I don't see the significant connection with dringking wine moderately and becoming a stumbling block to others. If "outsiders" see Christians drink wine and then instantly judge them, then I have to say they're just seeing the cover without even bother to check out the contents.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

You are 100% correct. It would especially spoil in the climate of Isreal, where it was stored in either wineskins or earthern jars. Fermented grape juice (wine) does not spoil so easily. :thumbs_up



An excellent question. Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. This was not "grape juice" since the man in charge of the feast told the bridgroom, "every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." St. John 2:10. The thing is, nothing states that Jesus got drunk. He drank wine with his meals, as they all did, but not just for the purpose of getting wasted. :nod:

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I have just returned from vacation.I thank you for your concurence.

`Jesus lived close to water, the lake gennesaret and it was pure and clean and there was plenty of drinking water via wells. I think because many people don't even try to be moderate in drink and bring shame and embarrassment to a gathering it is preferred that we don't. and of course there are alchoholics who would be terribly tempted and that is not right. we are admonished not to eat or drink anything in someone's presence that would upset them.
But the fact is that our Lord enjoyed eating and he drank wine. A scripture says that John the Baptiser came not eating or drinking anything questionable and he was thought wierd. and then our Lord came eating and drinking (He made all things why not) and he was called a glutton and a winebibber by gossips who wanted to believe that.
there is nothing wrong with drinking wine as long as it is in moderation. more than that takes a person into a dark territory where they can hurt themselves and others.
I am a Catholic Jew and wine is always used, for the eucharist and for shabbat and such. I think each person must stand and fall on his or her own in this matter and quit forcing our worries and prejudices upon others. I myself don't drink because of my street ministry, too many addicted to substance but I will sit and have a meal with my friends who do.

"What ever a man eats or drinks or does let him do it whole souled as to God"

I second Rachel. I always said, "in moderation". Thanks for that one scripture reference, Rachel--

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Originally Posted by Rachel

But the fact is that our Lord enjoyed eating and he drank wine. A scripture says that John the Baptiser came not eating or drinking anything questionable and he was thought wierd. and then our Lord came eating and drinking (He made all things why not) and he was called a glutton and a winebibber by gossips who wanted to believe that.

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You see, people are going to think what they want about you anyway. They did our Lord, why should we expect to be treated differently? "The servant is not greater than his Master."

Live a simple, humble Christian life as best you know how and to the extent of your understanding, pray, read your Bible, and let they say what they will.
Paul says in Romans 14:22 "Hast thou faith? Have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

If even drinking with meals or in moderation bothers you, then don't do it. But don't condemn others for it. :angel:

Who knows? The wine that was 2000 years ago may have been different from the type of wine produced now.

It could have been fermented Grape juice, but not as much alcohol added as we do today. I don't know. I don't drink wine myself, so I am just like an armchair 'critic', although I am NOT critising anybody. I only wish to point out certain things in the Scripture which answers your question.

Paul has already said about the food to eat. (Whether eating food offered to idols was right or not) He said that if you are ignorant of it, give thanks and eat it. Don't be fussy or become a bad example to the unbelievers by seeming to be ungrateful. But if you are specially told by others that the food has been offered to idols, Paul says to not eat it. For the sake of your brothers and sisters in faith- don't be a stumbling block to them. Or even to the unbelievers! They know more than you think about the Scriptures, and to disobey God in front of them (to them at least, it's disobedience) it would become a stumbling block to them too, and they would have no reason to believe that your 'religion' is any better than theirs, since you are just as 'disobedient' as them.

It is the same thing about wine. Don't drink it if you don't want to. But drink it if you are ignorant, and don't complain. At least, that's what I think Paul was trying to bring across. :)

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

Who knows? The wine that was 2000 years ago may have been different from the type of wine produced now.

It could have been fermented Grape juice, but not as much alcohol added as we do today. I don't know. I don't drink wine myself, so I am just like an armchair 'critic', although I am NOT critising anybody. I only wish to point out certain things in the Scripture which answers your question.

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I'm not sure with what you mean by "added", I thought the alcohol came from the fermetation process and the percentage of the alcohol contents vary, which depends on how you processed it...

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Paul has already said about the food to eat. (Whether eating food offered to idols was right or not) He said that if you are ignorant of it, give thanks and eat it. Don't be fussy or become a bad example to the unbelievers by seeming to be ungrateful. But if you are specially told by others that the food has been offered to idols, Paul says to not eat it. For the sake of your brothers and sisters in faith- don't be a stumbling block to them. Or even to the unbelievers! They know more than you think about the Scriptures, and to disobey God in front of them (to them at least, it's disobedience) it would become a stumbling block to them too, and they would have no reason to believe that your 'religion' is any better than theirs, since you are just as 'disobedient' as them.

It is the same thing about wine. Don't drink it if you don't want to. But drink it if you are ignorant, and don't complain. At least, that's what I think Paul was trying to bring across. :)

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Well, I think the key lies on one of Jesus's sayings, "do onto others as you want them to do on to you"..or something like that.

Maybe it could have been so, but maybe the alcohol level was lower then than now. I don't know. :)

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

Maybe it could have been so, but maybe the alcohol level was lower then than now. I don't know. :)

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I couldn't say if this were true of Jesus' day, or even in the Middle East, since I believe Islam forbids drinking, but many countries used to make what they called "table wine." It was, as you state, less intoxicating than regular wine, and a person would have to really drink a lot of it to get drunken. In fact, I believe you'd probably get very sick far sooner. Again, I can't say whether this is the wine mentioned in the Bible, but I wanted you to know it does, or did, exist. The problem I have is when the Holy Ghost fell on the Day of Pentecost at the Upper Room and people thought they were drunk, Peter said "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day." Acts 2:15, an indication that it was too early in the day to expect to see drunk people. But I agree, better not to do it, then to be a stumbling block for that is God's word. :angel:

I believe Jesus Christ Blessed the WINE and declared "THIS IS MY BLOOD."I do not understand how the FAITHFUL could believe HE was decieving them into a path of destruction!Before you consume communal wine it is diluted with water at the table of preperation,it is prayed over, and upon consumption is no longer wine but the BLOOD of Jesus Christ,Lord an Redeemer!IF YOU BELIEVE HIM,you can not believe a teaspoon,(a shot glass at most)of diluted wine that you have been told to consume will cause you grief !
Amen