What was before God? (or, Why did He wait so long?)

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I’ve said all I want to, thank you.

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By all objective standards, that didn't amount to much. ;) I couldn't even get one simple logical argument out of you.

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Der Klügere gibt nach. You had your chance!

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Lol. This made me laugh in many ways. :lol:

There was another quote you used, but you seem to have forgotten it, although you applied it to the same situation. ;)

“When defeat is inevitable, it is wisest to yield.” - Marcus Fabius Quintilianus (Quintilian) ;)

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You have provided me with the same service.

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Logical discussions are not for everyone, and many find them cumbersome and hard to follow, so you are not alone. :D

"Whifflingpin...are you okay?......"

:banana: Yes, thank you for asking - I just thought I'd inject a serious note into this thread, and maybe a bit of sound reasoning, as a change from the frivolous blather that has been going on for a while. :banana:

:angel: Thank you too Rachel malachi :angel:

Amra,

If The Unnamable's style of argument is not to your taste. Please allow me to offer mine.

You claim:

A. God has always existed. Presumably, this includes the time prior to the creation of the universe (and I am only assuming your idea of a creation for the sake of argument).
B. God knows everything, past, present and future in infinite detail.
C. God created the universe and everything in it.
D. God is all-powerful. Nothing is beyond his ability.

Please feel free to correct me if any of these do not agree with your definition of God. I'd hate to base my argument on an uncertain base.

You further claim:

E. There is no predestination. Humans have complete free-will and choice in their actions (with the obvious proviso that their choice of action is physically capable of being applied).

I will show that these beliefs lead to a contradiction. I am not stating that I personally believe in any of them except the last.

1. Now, if A and B are true, this implies that God knew the precise details of the life of every creature in the universe prior to creating it.
2. If D is true, God could have chosen any universe, with any set of rules and possible futures to create.
3. And if C is true, God created the universe exactly as it is, in full knowledge of the fate of every creature in it.
4. 1, 2 & 3 imply that the exact details of the minutest part of this universe were known and chosen by God when he created it. In other words, He chose a universe where I am an atheist and you are a muslim.

This is utterly incompatible with premise E, which clearly states that I could have chosen to be a muslim at any time.

Reductio ad absurdum therefore states that at least one of the original assumptions A, B, C, D, & E must be false.

Is that argument logical enough for you? I know that the language is not as stylish as my learned colleague, The Unnamable, and that it is certainly not nearly amusing enough for his taste. I trust though, that what it lacks in style and wit, it makes up for in the solidity of the logical process.

Feel free to be as rigourous in your counter-argument. I look forward to it.

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I did post more than this, including the website addresses of four articles from The Daily Telegraph (the UK’s top-selling broadsheet newspaper). They have been removed. So now, even providing links to a major British newspaper is banned. The Daily Telegraph banned on a Literature Forum! They will be pleased.

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The Unnamable,

Your post is deleted not because it contained a link to The Daily Telegraph but because the contents of the articles you linked were directly related to current political events. As I suggested in my PM, please do feel free to PM them to those who are interested.


To All,

Once again, please do not personalise your arguments.

And

any off-topic post will be deleted.

"B. God knows everything, past, present and future in infinite detail."

Not that I care whether there is free will or not (we have to live as if there is free will, because we do not know what, if anything, is fore-ordained.)

Your careful argument, Xamonas, depends on whether this statement B is true, and in what sense it may be true. Your argument is valid if time is linear to God as it appears to the created universe. If, however, God's view of time be not linear, then, amongst the infinite options which you allow to the Creator is the option to create a universe in which some, or all, of the creatures have free will to act within their natures, and the Creator's knowledge may, in linear time, come after the free action but still, in God's view be known by Him, though not determined by Him, at the moment of creation.

I think that if you do not allow this possibility, then you do not get as far as considering predetermination, in your terms, because your clause D does not hold.

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"E. There is no predestination. Humans have complete free-will and choice in their actions (with the obvious proviso that their choice of action is physically capable of being applied).

... I am not stating that I personally believe in any of them except the last."

Interestingly, it is, if I understood and remember him correctly, the atheist Stephen Hawking who demonstrates clearly that the universe and everything in it is totally preordained, and that had there been a Creator, He would have had no free will in the way in which he created the universe.

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Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe

it is certainly not nearly amusing enough for his taste.

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On the contrary, I laughed out very loudly when I read it. I think we can safely assume that google has been red-hot since that appeared. :D At the moment however, you appeared to have frightened off some people with the solidity of your logic. :nod:

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You claim:

A. God has always existed. Presumably, this includes the time prior to the creation of the universe (and I am only assuming your idea of a creation for the sake of argument).
B. God knows everything, past, present and future in infinite detail.
C. God created the universe and everything in it.
D. God is all-powerful. Nothing is beyond his ability.

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I agree with all those premises.

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E. There is no predestination. Humans have complete free-will and choice in their actions (with the obvious proviso that their choice of action is physically capable of being applied).

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Just to be clear in this, God did decide certain things, such as the Judgment Day, the laws of this universe, the revelations of His message to the Prophets, but He didn't influence us to make the choices we made, meaning that our free will is indeed not influenced by Him directly, but is only limited by the laws of the nature we live in, as you already stated above.

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1. Now, if A and B are true, this implies that God knew the precise details of the life of every creature in the universe prior to creating it.
2. If D is true, God could have chosen any universe, with any set of rules and possible futures to create.
3. And if C is true, God created the universe exactly as it is, in full knowledge of the fate of every creature in it.
4. 1, 2 & 3 imply that the exact details of the minutest part of this universe were known and chosen by God when he created it. In other words, He chose a universe where I am an atheist and you are a muslim.

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I think that the main problem arises because we want to limit God to time. Time is a very important concept in this issue, because God created time as well, and is not limited by it, whereas we are. If we try to put those boundaries on God, then we negate your premise D. God created the laws of this nature, the universe, decided when the Judgment Day will be, gave us Prophets to guide us, and gave us free will to decide for ourselves. For us, everything that is still ahead is future and unknown, but for God, that restriction doesn't apply. He already knows everything that will happen, but He let it happen because we have free will. If He wanted to influence that in any way, wouldn't He have created all of us to be believers? Stating that God influences us in the decisions we make would imply that God is evil and unjust, that Judgment Day exists merely for His entertainment, and that human beings are programmed robots. All of these are incompatible with the view of God we have, and the characteristics He has. When you read the Qur'an, you can see that on many occasions God talks about the future as if it had already happened.

044.010
YUSUFALI: Then watch thou for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke (or mist) plainly visible,

044.011
YUSUFALI: Enveloping the people: this will be a Penalty Grievous.
044.012
YUSUFALI: (They will say:) "Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!"
044.013
YUSUFALI: How shall the message be (effectual) for them, seeing that an Messenger explaining things clearly has (already) come to them
044.014
YUSUFALI: Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"

Notice that in one of the verses God tell us what the people will say when Judgment Day comes:"Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!". Did God influence them to not believe, or to say this? No. He simply tell us what will happen, because He knows it. To Him it has already happened.
It shows that for God time is linear, and therefore everything that would happen, or that has happened, and that which is happening is known to him. However, there is a difference between influence and knowledge. His mere knowledge of things that are future for us, but known to him because He is not limited by time, does not imply that He influences our free will. It simply means that, as He knows everything else, He knows our free wills as well.

I would like you to explain more, if you could, how you draw the line between knowledge and influence, because if we assume that we cannot do anything because we are predestined to what God had already decided, then that implies influence. Right?

By the way, thank you for engaging in this discussion. Your imput is very refreshing.... :nod:

Here are some more verses from the Qur'an, and you can see how God narrates future as something that has already happened.



10. The Unbelievers will be addressed: "Greater was the aversion of Allah to you than (is) your aversion to yourselves, seeing that ye were called to the Faith and ye used to refuse."

11. They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?"

12. (The answer will be:) "This is because, when Allah was invoked as the Only (object of worship), ye did reject Faith, but when partners were joined to Him, ye believed! the Command is with Allah, Most High, Most Great!"

....

83. For when their apostles came to them with Clear Signs, they exulted in such knowledge (and skill) as they had; but that very (Wrath) at which they were wont to scoff hemmed them in.

84. But when they saw Our Punishment, they said: "We believe in Allah,- the one Allah - and we reject the partners we used to join with Him."


Again, verses telling us of future events as if they had already happend confirming God's unlimited knowledge not bounded by time constraints.

I don't follow your logic Amra. Why does it make a difference whether God is inside or outside of time.

In your view, He created a universe (this one, to be precise) with absolute prior knowledge of every act that would be commited in it. This is what postulates A, B, C & D imply.

If they are true, which you say you believe, then everything that occurs in this world is the pre-ordained will of God. He could have made the world a different way but he didn't.

This means that he chose a world in which you will (presumably) be saved and I will go to hell.
He chose a world with malaria, genocide, tsunamis, murder in the name of religion, and even atheism.

Whether he chose this world before what we perceive as the present, or from outside of time altogether, is irrelevant. It was his choice; according to the 4 statements that you believe in, it had to be. As you say, this implies that God is evil and unjust, that Judgment Day exists merely for His entertainment, and that human beings are programmed robots.

Personally, I take a different view, I say that it makes the idea of a loving God possessing all of those properties absurd. Alternatively, it means that using any logic at all to explain God's actions is absurd, in which case, why did you start it?

Rely on faith, if you like. But try to rely on logic and (unless your arguments are flawed and you willfully ignore those flaws) the God that you believe in can not exist.

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In your view, He created a universe (this one, to be precise) with absolute prior knowledge of every act that would be commited in it. This is what postulates A, B, C & D imply.

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Yes.

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If they are true, which you say you believe, then everything that occurs in this world is the pre-ordained will of God. He could have made the world a different way but he didn't.

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How do you link knowledge with preordination? The first statment asserts His knowledge of what will happen. In the second you state that because He knows what will happen, He must have predestined it. Why?

Can we assume that God knows what will happen even though He didn't influence it?
He created the world with certain natural laws, gave us free will, and let us do whatever we did knowing what we will do. If you imagine the God as a psychic (may He forgive me for this) who sees the future and merely lets it happen, how do you ascribe influence to Him simply because He knows what will happen?

This discussion is absurd, in that whatever may be postulated, no creature could know what is in the mind of the creator. Of course, for any believer there is an act of faith, and a point beyond which logic is of no help. This is, if I may again misrember and misquote the atheist Hawking, analogous to Hawking's statements that questions about conditions prior to the start of the universe, and post end-of-universe are, for us, meaningless non-questions. (Edited bit: "God has always existed. Presumably, this includes the time prior to the creation of the universe" The second, at least, of these two statements is without meaning - "always," "time prior" are concepts that have meaning within the framework of time, but they are non-terms outside such a framework. )

Assuming that God exists, we have not the slightest idea or concept how he operates or what he knows in his own sphere. In terms of the created universe, our free will may be consistent with his total knowledge, because what, to us appears infinite time is to him an instant. In his terms, not that I can know anything about them, the created universe has no before, during and after, it just is and is not; his knowledge of all its being and its end is instantaneous with the moment of creation, because its beginning and end are not separated.

I think that Amra's arguments are consistent with the paragraph above.

Christians, on the other hand, have an additional non-logical item of faith, which is that the creator has, at one point in history, entered into his creation and experienced what it is like to suffer time, and known what creatures suffer, as one of them, rather than as an onlooker. For Christians, this is sufficient answer to Xamonas' accusation of callousness on the part of God, namely, that whatever we (all creation) suffer, he suffers.

For me, that concept of God's incarnation, though wonderful, is both insufficient and too complicated. But, to me, the world seems too full of the divine for atheism to offer a sufficient description, and too full of evil for a single loving creator - hence, I think that any theory that attempts to describe this universe must be dualistic at least. I appreciate that this view is scarcely fashionable just now, but it is exactly the conditions that make Xamonas decide that there is no divine power make me conclude that there are two.

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Originally Posted by Amra

How do you link knowledge with preordination? The first statment asserts His knowledge of what will happen. In the second you state that because He knows what will happen, He must have predestined it. Why?

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I have answered this already.

1. He knows everything.
2. Everything includes every single occurence in every possible universe.
3. He could have created any universe, but chose to create this one.
4. Every single occurence is already known and cucially, already determined, because this particular universe out of all possible universe has been chosen.

If 1 or 2 is not true, God is not omniscient.
If 3 is not true, God himself is either not omnipotent, did not create the universe or did not Himself have free will!
4 follows logically from 2 and 3.

Tell me which of these logical statements you are unhappy with.

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I have answered this already.

1. He knows everything.
2. Everything includes every single occurence in every possible universe.
3. He could have created any universe, but chose to create this one.
4. Every single occurence is already known and cucially, already determined, because this particular universe out of all possible universe has been chosen.

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If 1 or 2 is not true, God is not omniscient.

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One and two are true.

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If 3 is not true, God himself is either not omnipotent, did not create the universe or did not Himself have free will!

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I don't see how the negation of 3 would mean that God didn't have a free will. Also, when you say He chose to create this universe and not some other, what do you mean specifically? I would agree to the extent that HE chose to create the laws of nature in this universe, death, Judgment Day and set certain limits upon us, but free will has nothing to do with that. We have the free will to choose how we want to live within those limits. He didn't choose how we would exercise our free will, He simply knew what will happen. Are you suggesting that after seeing how we would end up, He should have set other laws? Wouldn't that actually be influence, rather than letting it play out as it has? Are you suggesting that HE wasn't mercifull enough; that the universe He created for us and the laws that we operate under were not fair enough, and therefore you blame Him for the things that happen? We could debate these things, but if you are suggesting that He predestined everything to happen a certain way, then that is simply not true, and your argument doesn't prove that, because you never link knowledge to influence in any logical way. He did let things happen as they did, and they happened with His approval.. He approved us to have a free will and do as we please.

This is how I imagine it to be: God created the universe, and He created the laws within it, then He created the first human beings, gave them free will, sent the Prophets to guide them, and let it all play out. He saw what would happen, and decided to let it be, believing that His laws and the universe He created were just and that everyone had a fair chance.

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4 follows logically from 2 and 3.

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Not really. 1 and 2 talk about His knowledge. 3 is not clear enough, and I have explained above why. 4 simply concludes something that is not logically linked to 2, and because 3 appears to be faulty, it is not possible to make 4 valid based on it. Where do you get the impression that God chose this universe? Doesn't that imply that He actually didn't influence anything, because if He had chosen something else, that would actually mean that He intervened in the natural procession of things. I wouldn't use choose in this context because it is confusing and doesn't really describe the reality. If we assume that He only LET things happen in their natural procession, than your argument doesn't stand. You never linked knowledge with predestination, but simply stated in 1 and 2 that He had knowledge of everything, and then you concluded that because He had knowledge that means He predestined it. There is no link between those two.

Also, Wifflingpin perfectly explains what my argument is. Using descriptive words for time such as "before", "after", "prior" when we talk about God is not correct, because God is not limited by time, and we are doing just that by expressing ourselves in that way.

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Assuming that God exists, we have not the slightest idea or concept how he operates or what he knows in his own sphere. In terms of the created universe, our free will may be consistent with his total knowledge, because what, to us appears infinite time is to him an instant. In his terms, not that I can know anything about them, the created universe has no before, during and after, it just is and is not; his knowledge of all its being and its end is instantaneous with the moment of creation, because its beginning and end are not separated.

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Perfectly stated. :nod:

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Originally Posted by Amra

I don't see how the negation of 3 would mean that God didn't have a free will.

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I didn't say that. I presented that as one of three possible implications of statement 3. You are arguing that I implied one of these specifically - which is untrue.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Also, when you say He chose to create this universe and not some other, what do you mean specifically? I would agree to the extent that HE chose to create the laws of nature in this universe, death, Judgment Day and set certain limits upon us, but free will has nothing to do with that. We have the free will to choose how we want to live within those limits.

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In the above group of statements:
(a) You ask what I mean by him choosing a particular universe and then agree that he DID choose a particular universe.
(b) You agree that he set certain limits on us yet deny that this affects our free will.
This is a shaky foundation for your subsequent arguments.

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Originally Posted by Amra

He didn't choose how we would exercise our free will, He simply knew what will happen.

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This is a rephrasing of the question I just addressed.

You still haven't put forward any argument to explain the difference that you see between
(a) choosing to create a particular universe where he knows in advance the minutest detail of all of our actions
and
(b) creating a universe where all of our actions are fixed in advance

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Originally Posted by Amra

Are you suggesting that after seeing how we would end up, He should have set other laws?

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I am asserting (not suggesting) that, according to the definition of God to which you subscribe, he could have - not should have; could have.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Wouldn't that actually be influence, rather than letting it play out as it has?

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I have stated many times that it is 'influence' or rather pre-destination either way. This is merely one of an infinite number of possible universes which a God such as you believe in could have created. He chose the one that plays out exactly as it does, not some other. The pre-destination is implicit in his ability to choose how he creates his universe, his ability to see the future of all possible universes and the choice of universe that he makes.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Are you suggesting that HE wasn't mercifull enough; that the universe He created for us and the laws that we operate under were not fair enough, and therefore you blame Him for the things that happen?

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I am not going to be drawn into a debate about God's personality - I don't believe in him, let alone blame him - and you consider him 'unknowable' so this is a dead end.

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Originally Posted by Amra

We could debate these things, but if you are suggesting that He predestined everything to happen a certain way, then that is simply not true, and your argument doesn't prove that, because you never link knowledge to influence in any logical way.

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Oh yes I do. What has not happened is you using the same logic to refute me. Your arguments are nothing but a statement that you believe me wrong but are not certain exactly how.

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Originally Posted by Amra

He did let things happen as they did, and they happened with His approval.. He approved us to have a free will and do as we please.

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Again you reword your original premise. Repetition is not a valid logical argument technique.

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Originally Posted by Amra

This is how I imagine it to be: God created the universe, and He created the laws within it, then He created the first human beings, gave them free will, sent the Prophets to guide them, and let it all play out. He saw what would happen, and decided to let it be, believing that His laws and the universe He created were just and that everyone had a fair chance.

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Use use an awful lot of 'then's in describing the actions of a God that is outside of time. You also imply here that he only 'saw what would happen' after sending the prophets. You also imply some knowledge of what God himself believes in the last sentence - naughty!

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Originally Posted by Amra

Not really. 1 and 2 talk about His knowledge. 3 is not clear enough, and I have explained above why.

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Where have you explained why? You have muddied the water and denied it - that is by no means the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Amra

4 simply concludes something that is not logically linked to 2, and because 3 appears to be faulty, it is not possible to make 4 valid based on it.

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3 'appears' to be faulty? Is it or isn't it? You have not disproved it to my satisfaction as I have stated above.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Where do you get the impression that God chose this universe?

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Are you denying that he could have chosen a different one? And if you are, why not? Because he is not all-powerful enough? or because he himself has no free will in the matter?

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Originally Posted by Amra

Doesn't that imply that He actually didn't influence anything, because if He had chosen something else, that would actually mean that He intervened in the natural procession of things.

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Why would choosing a different universe than this one imply influence, yet choosing this one does not? What is the difference between this universe and any other, except for the simple fact that this is the one that God chose to create?

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Originally Posted by Amra

I wouldn't use choose in this context because it is confusing and doesn't really describe the reality. If we assume that He only LET things happen in their natural procession, than your argument doesn't stand.

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Think about what you wrote here. It is your assertion that God created the universe, yet now you ask me to assume that he 'let it happen in it's natural procession'. Did he create it or not? Did he create the universe but not the laws of the universe perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Amra

You never linked knowledge with predestination, but simply stated in 1 and 2 that He had knowledge of everything, and then you concluded that because He had knowledge that means He predestined it. There is no link between those two.

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Again you retread the same old ground. I have shown why I believe there is a causal link between these two statements. You have merely stated, without logical argument, that you don't agree.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Also, Wifflingpin perfectly explains what my argument is. Using descriptive words for time such as "before", "after", "prior" when we talk about God is not correct, because God is not limited by time, and we are doing just that by expressing ourselves in that way.

Perfectly stated. :nod:

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My argument does not rely on God's existence in time. It is purely based on the definition of God that is held by believers.



Amra,

I am quite happy for you to believe in your God. But it is a matter of your faith and nothing else.

Many logical arguments for the existence of God have been proposed over the centuries; and they have been far more rigourous and internally consistent than your own. Not one has stood up to scrutiny.

Believe what you will (you will anyway), but using logic in such an inconsistent way as you have is not constructive. All it serves to do is convince those that already agree with you, based on the fact that they don't read your words carefully and want them to be true.

Let us agree to differ on God's existence, free will and prior knowledge. None of these can be proven logically. I do not claim to have disproven God's existence; all I claim is that I have shown that there are logical inconsistencies in the idea of God that you present. That you refute that is up to you, of course. You can deny anything you like; just as you can believe anything you like.

But logic is too sharp a tool to apply on something that is based on faith alone.


Peace,

XC