D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Virgil

It's an interesting little dance that the two perform here. She snubs him, irritated with his presence, and he with every turn gets angrier and angrier. Here again:

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Clearly, we sense the husband's will in this scene. We know he wants to "win" his wife in a way he's never been able to do. He's been irked repeatedly in this story by his distant wife, and now he finally confronts her about it. I don't think we see the same kind of strength and will from the wife, though:

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She sat perfectly still, without any being. She only felt she might be sick, and it might be blood that was loose in her torn entrails. She sat perfectly still and passive.

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But she could not move. She had no being.

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She could not recover her life. She rose stiffly and went down. She could neither eat nor talk during the meal. She sat absent, torn, without any being of her own.

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The only thing she wants is him to leave. There isn't the same kind of latent, hungry desire to conquer that seems to be fueling the husband. I don't think the revulsion she feels for her husband really constitutes an act of will; it's more of a feeling or impulse.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

The schism between the two is impossible to breech. They are very separate beings. It would be an understatement to say that they don't have a true marriage. Interesting how Lawrence constructs this paragraph. The first half is from the point of view of the woman. Without starting a new paragraph, the point of view shifts to the man. Here's the second half of the paragraph:

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That's a good observation. He does shift the focus in that part, and he shifts the tragic element towards the husband too. The last part we read was about a trapped wife, but Lawrence shifts the focus toward the jilted husband. Suddenly, he becomes the character we sympathize with.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Here the class issue really comes out. Although I think this story is too short to fully elaborate on this theme (he does in The Rainbow) but I think the significance of the class differences is that it emphasizes a mental/cultural chasm between the two, something that a healthy marriage ultimately works out, so that over time the couple will share in mental outlook. This couple can't or at least haven't yet accomplished that. One suspects that they may not. After going away and coming back, he probes to see what the matter is:

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The class difference certainly makes the husband appear the victim. He becomes the lowly "laboring electrician" who gives generously only to be shunned by a haughty wife. For me, though, this didn't have much effect. This sympathetic husband was just too incongruous with the self-absorbed one we got in the opening. It's hard to imagine him being the dotting husband that we're told he is here. I understand that Lawrence is trying to make the story tragic for both lovers, but I think he does a much better job forming the wife than he does the husband.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

She's a b***h I agree with DM, she's not a sympathetic character.

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A bit harsh, maybe?

Hehe I don't think so. Virgil is right. She totally is

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Hehe I don't think so. Virgil is right. She totally is

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I don't know. I was just objecting to the name-calling.

Even if she was a real person, she hardly seems like the type that would get her feelings hurt. Even so, her own actions would have brought it on.

I think I'm going to let Janine and Virgil jump in here.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Clearly, we sense the husband's will in this scene. We know he wants to "win" his wife in a way he's never been able to do. He's been irked repeatedly in this story by his distant wife, and now he finally confronts her about it. I don't think we see the same kind of strength and will from the wife, though:

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Quark, good post. I agree with most you have written here. Oh no, we might have a war here - 2 against 2 - two wife haters and two husband haters!:lol: Truly though, I don't hate anyone. Let us not forget this is the most peaceful thread on Lit Net.;) Anyway, what you wrote here above soooo reminds me of Lawrence and his own wife. He often was wanting more attention from her. It is very clear when you read books, like his intimate travel novels, or the one I am reading now "Kangaroo", based, biographically, on Lawrence and Frieda's brief residence in Australia. It is interesting to me now to read this sort of 'tug of war' between the male and female in this story' because this is something quite prominent in the novel' I am now reading. I really do think Lawrence struggled with this. He wanted to be "Lord of the manor" - he said so himself, blantantly and his wife certainly fought tooth and nail against it; it was a battle of 'wills'. It is truly complicated, but I know exactly where Lawrence is coming from in this story. The woman needs her 'space' - I said that before and the man doesn't want to give her an inch, really. In the beginning, he is fretting about the time and that she is not there at his calling. It was like this with Lawrence at times (not all the time, mind you) and he struggled with this. I wonder if this was not born of the abnormally close relationship he had to his mother. There always seems to be this need and this pull towards the woman, as though she were his mother or substitute, and yet he had this fear the woman would overcome him...it is a strange position to be in.

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The only thing she wants is him to leave. There isn't the same kind of latent, hungry desire to conquer that seems to be fueling the husband. I don't think the revulsion she feels for her husband really constitutes an act of will; it's more of a feeling or impulse.

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She does - this is why I say 'space'....everyone deserves their space at times. Too much togetherness can be smothering.

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That's a good observation. He does shift the focus in that part, and he shifts the tragic element towards the husband too. The last part we read was about a trapped wife, but Lawrence shifts the focus toward the jilted husband. Suddenly, he becomes the character we sympathize with.

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Interesting to think about.

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The class difference certainly makes the husband appear the victim. He becomes the lowly "laboring electrician" who gives generously only to be shunned by a haughty wife. For me, though, this didn't have much effect. This sympathetic husband was just too incongruous with the self-absorbed one we got in the opening. It's hard to imagine him being the dotting husband that we're told he is here. I understand that Lawrence is trying to make the story tragic for both lovers, but I think he does a much better job forming the wife than he does the husband.

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I agree with this...and...

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A bit harsh, maybe?

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this, too... I also. don't like labeling or name calling. such as this. Sorry, Virgil, but really I don't. I think the woman has more dimension, than just being called a b*****? What point does that serve. Gee, maybe we spoke too soon and we will all duke it out now on this issue.;)

I really don't see any harm in calling a fictional char names. Hehe you two talk as if she were a real person

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I really don't see any harm in calling a fictional char names. Hehe you two talk as if she were a real person

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Dark Muse, I don't think that is the point. The point is by using words like that one tends to generalise or type a person. I don't think Lawrence would have intended any of this characters to be type-cast. I can't think of one from his novels that is all good or all bad - they are just humans with flaws and strenths, struggles, etc. Lawrence very much identified with the human condition. This is all I was saying - to boil them down to one word I feel is totally unfair, even if they are just characters; they represent people or the idea of a person.

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Originally Posted by Janine

:lol: Yes, that is a 'rarity' Virgil! :lol: It's 'cause I am here and keep you in-line.;) :lol:

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:blush: Yes, you're the mommy figure. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Hehe yes so true, not to name names but there is one discussion board on the Lit. forum, that it seems wheenver I try to post there, I just get my head snapped off.

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Which thread is that DM?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Which thread is that DM?

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The Jane Eyre forum. I swear those people take things too seriously and they are very millitant about thier views.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Clearly, we sense the husband's will in this scene. We know he wants to "win" his wife in a way he's never been able to do. He's been irked repeatedly in this story by his distant wife, and now he finally confronts her about it. I don't think we see the same kind of strength and will from the wife, though:

The only thing she wants is him to leave. There isn't the same kind of latent, hungry desire to conquer that seems to be fueling the husband. I don't think the revulsion she feels for her husband really constitutes an act of will; it's more of a feeling or impulse.

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Hmm interesting. Maybe it's because she's conquored him throughout the whole marriage. But I disagree that her will isn't strong.

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Suddenly, he becomes the character we sympathize with.

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You and Janine seem to feel Lawrence is generating sympathy for the woman in the story. I don't really see it. She acts superior to her husband from beginning to end, and in the middle she's a day dream idealist at best. In what respect are we supposed to sympathize with her? Because her old love fell apart and now he's insane and so they can't get back together? What's so sympathetic about that? Why is she married now if she never loved her husband and wants to go back to her old love? On what grounds can any sympathy be felt for her? I think Lawrence is consciously making the woman out to be detestable. Even biographically the husband character is Lawrence.

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The class difference certainly makes the husband appear the victim. He becomes the lowly "laboring electrician" who gives generously only to be shunned by a haughty wife. For me, though, this didn't have much effect. This sympathetic husband was just too incongruous with the self-absorbed one we got in the opening.

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Was he self absorbed in the beginning? I just re-read that. Interesting, his looking at himself in the mirror is similar to his wife day dreaming in the garden. But I don't see why that would make it incongruous. it was a moment in the mirror, not a fantasy of an old love.

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It's hard to imagine him being the dotting husband that we're told he is here. I understand that Lawrence is trying to make the story tragic for both lovers, but I think he does a much better job forming the wife than he does the husband.

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Well, he maks her dinner, attends her needs, and worries she is ill. Do you think he's acting? It seems sincere.

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A bit harsh, maybe?

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Hehe, Lawrence did not care for uppity women. I think the word fits. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

You and Janine seem to feel Lawrence is generating sympathy for the woman in the story. I don't really see it. She acts superior to her husband from beginning to end, and in the middle she's a day dream idealist at best. In what respect are we supposed to sympathize with her? Because her old love fell apart and now he's insane and so they can't get back together? What's so sympathetic about that? Why is she married now if she never loved her husband and wants to go back to her old love? On what grounds can any sympathy be felt for her? I think Lawrence is consciously making the woman out to be detestable. Even biographically the husband character is Lawrence.

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Yes, it is the great mystery how she ended up with her husband, as it was not out of personal desire, or finicial need as it seems she would be perefectly able to support herself without him.

As I suggested before, I think she just wanted someone she could boss around, she intentionaly chose a man whom geniuenly cared for her, that she would have all the power over.

Yes, that is what I have said twoard the beginning, I do not think the fact that she is obcessed with her past makes her sympahtic, but rather instead it makes her immature.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quark, good post. I agree with most you have written here. Oh no, we might have a war here - 2 against 2 - two wife haters and two husband haters!:lol:

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:lol: Lawrence had a bit of woman hating in him. :D

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Truly though, I don't hate anyone. Let us not forget this is the most peaceful thread on Lit Net.;) Anyway, what you wrote here above soooo reminds me of Lawrence and his own wife. He often was wanting more attention from her. It is very clear when you read books, like his intimate travel novels, or the one I am reading now "Kangaroo", based, biographically, on Lawrence and Frieda's brief residence in Australia. It is interesting to me now to read this sort of 'tug of war' between the male and female in this story' because this is something quite prominent in the novel' I am now reading. I really do think Lawrence struggled with this. He wanted to be "Lord of the manor" - he said so himself, blantantly and his wife certainly fought tooth and nail against it; it was a battle of 'wills'. It is truly complicated, but I know exactly where Lawrence is coming from in this story.

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I think you've pointed out perfectly the biographical identifications in the story. And Lawrence did believe the man should be lord of the manor as you put it. The woman of the story is the type of woman Lawrenced blames for problems of the world. I know that's a big jump, and you don't get it in this story. But Lawrence believes that the psychological make up of people causes actions and events in the world and the psychology of the strong willed woman is what he blames for the world being screwed up. That's simplistic, but when you find a strong willed woman in a Lawrence short story, you ought to be suspicious.

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The woman needs her 'space' - I said that before and the man doesn't want to give her an inch, really. In the beginning, he is fretting about the time and that she is not there at his calling. It was like this with Lawrence at times (not all the time, mind you) and he struggled with this. I wonder if this was not born of the abnormally close relationship he had to his mother. There always seems to be this need and this pull towards the woman, as though she were his mother or substitute, and yet he had this fear the woman would overcome him...it is a strange position to be in.

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But the husband gives her her space. He lets her go off on her own all day, presumably not knowing that she was going to cheat on him (what would have happened if the old lover was not insane?), he lets her be in the bedroom while he makes dinner, and at every turn she sticks a stick in his side. She redicules him and acts so superior.

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She does - this is why I say 'space'....everyone deserves their space at times. Too much togetherness can be smothering.

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I'm afraid I don't really see this. There isn't that much togetherness. Where is the husband being sufficating? He comes home and makes dinner. One would expect to sit at a table and have dinner together. Actually all she had to say is, not tonight, I don't feel well. But she doesn't. She Lords over him like a queen, something we can assume happens repeatedly.

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this, too... I also. don't like labeling or name calling. such as this. Sorry, Virgil, but really I don't. I think the woman has more dimension, than just being called a b*****? What point does that serve. Gee, maybe we spoke too soon and we will all duke it out now on this issue.;)

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Well, I am Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :p :D

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Yes, it is the great mystery how she ended up with her husband, as it was not out of personal desire, or finicial need as it seems she would be perefectly able to support herself without him.

As I suggested before, I think she just wanted someone she could boss around, she intentionaly chose a man whom geniuenly cared for her, that she would have all the power over.

Yes, that is what I have said twoard the beginning, I do not think the fact that she is obcessed with her past makes her sympahtic, but rather instead it makes her immature.

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I don't know if immature is the right word, but certainly a b****. ;) We have nothing else to go by as to why she maried him, so i would have to assume you're right. She wants to feel powerful and she picked a physically small man in a social class below her.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But the husband gives her her space. He lets her go off on her own all day, presumably not knowing that she was going to cheat on him (what would have happened if the old lover was not insane?)

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LOL that is exzactly what I said, at one point I brought up the question, what if she met her lover to find him both physicaly and mentally well?

Becasue I do not think she would have hesitated

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I don't know if immature is the right word, but certainly a b****. ;) We have nothing else to go by as to why she maried him, so i would have to assume you're right. She wants to feel powerful and she picked a physically small man in a social class below her.

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Well I won't repate myself, I talked about this at length tword the beginning of the thread, but at several points I thought the woman seemed child-like in her mentality and behavhor.