Ok, good; then I will try to answer your last post of comments on my comments now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
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Ok, good; then I will try to answer your last post of comments on my comments now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well, you complained I was slow keeping this going or posting too much and you keep us waiting and waiting and waiting...:yawnb: Just giving your back a little of your own medicine.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeah, the basics become more clear to you when put into a totally natural environment. One feels quite transformed/altered.Quote:
Yes, that's a good way to put it, pushing the situation to the priorities of life. Actually to an animal's existance, naturalism in the extreme.
Oh, I didn't check it; I will later to night. No big deal though.Quote:
I copied it off the web site. It looks like a typo. I don't have my hard text with me. Perhaps someone can look it up and see if it's the same in the print.
Thanks, glad you agree...Quote:
Yes, that is a good way to look at it.
Probably true...he is the author. The writing usually does reflect his own attitudes. I somehow get the impression with this story though that Romero is more like Tony Luhan who married Mable. I think I may have read that somewhere.Quote:
Actually more like the way Lawrence thinks. :D
I bet you do. I think Romero would have liked Dolly to do a little howling, too....:brow::lol:Quote:
Hehe, I love it when the feminists start howling. :D
Who me, personally? oh I get it ...the song...haha...I guess Dollie doesn't want to though. She just wants to stop at the dance steps.Quote:
Do you do more than dance? I guess Dollie doesn't want to. ;)
No kidding? I would have though you would have read it. I have the film version as well. It is pretty good; sort of reminds one of LCL in some aspects. Only one thing bugs me about it. The gyspy man is married. I don't quite get the promiscuity there since I thought Lawrence a little more monogamous thinking, but you know Lawrence sure does surprise me sometimes.Quote:
Oh I haven't read The V&G. Sounds like there are parallels.
Maybe being as close as he was to the real person, Brett, he felt it an invasion to go too deeply into the character's mind. Also, remember, although this is long for a short story, still it is his short fiction. In a novel he goes more deeply into the psyche of a woman character's mind; well also with men characters as well. I don't think this story is underdeveloped; I don't think he cut corners; Lawrence was always re-writing and perfecting his work. I can't imagine a work this long and ambitious, being one that he skimped on.Quote:
I can't help but feel that Lawrence is unclear. Does he really dig into Dollie's mind as he does with other characters? I don't think so. This was already a fairly long story and I bet he was trying to cut corners. But I think you're interpretation of Dollie's actions is correct.
I believe so.Quote:
Perhaps so.
So will you post 'the more to the actions' with the next body of text?Quote:
Well, that could explain the initial sex. But there is more to the actions which I'll post tonight.
In this case I see it as the first - "the battle of wills where one will destroy the other"...good way of putting that. But then again, if the second is only momentary perhaps that is part of it. I don't know that; Dolly seems totally braced against accepting the sexual furfillment of this experience. I still think it the first. She experiences a temporary loss of her own will, probably the first time in her life she has encountered or experienced this. That is why it is so earth-shattering to her; traumatic. Your last statement seems accurate to me 'But it also seems to come at a point where his will over comes her resistance".Quote:
I did notice something else in this section just now that I should have mentioned. Look at this paragraph:
Notice the word "annihilate." Lawrence uses that word a lot. There are two manners in which he uses it. One, as a climax to a battle of wills where one will destroys the other. Or two in a moment of sexual climax where the will just disappears for a moment and one is in a moment of mindlessness, the will being temporarily destroyed. Not sure how Lawrence is using it here. It seems to come around the sexual moment. But it also seems to come at a point where his will over comes her resistance.
Next section:
I guess a couple of points. Obviously his male ego is extremely proud in the morning: "He opened his brown eyes wide, and smiled with a curious tender luxuriousness." But she is grieved by the whole experience: "She could not bear to look at him. He was so suffused with pride and luxury. She hid her face almost in despair." And it's this split between them that drives the dialogue, he thinking his maleness has pleased the female, she feeling violated. Her rejection of him is rejection of his maleness, and this is what makes him go off.Quote:
When dawn came, he was fast asleep. She sat up suddenly.
"I want a fire," she said.
He opened his brown eyes wide, and smiled with a curious tender luxuriousness.
"I want you to make a fire," she said.
He glanced at the chinks of light. His brown face hardened to the day.
"All right," he said. "I'll make it."
She did her face while he dressed. She could not bear to look at him. He was so suffused with pride and luxury. She hid her face almost in despair. But feeling the cold blast of air as he opened the door, she wriggled down into the warm place where he had been. How soon the warmth ebbed, when he had gone!
He made a fire and went out, returning after a while with water.
"You stay in bed till the sun comes," he said. "It very cold."
"Hand me my cloak."
She wrapped the cloak fast round her, and sat up among the blankets. The warmth was already spreading from the fire.
"I suppose we will start back as soon as we've had breakfast?"
He was crouching at his camp-stove making scrambled eggs. He looked up suddenly, transfixed, and his brown eyes, so soft and luxuriously widened, looked straight at her.
"You want to?" he said.
"We'd better get back as soon as possible," she said, turning aside from his eyes.
"You want to get away from me?" he asked, repeating the question of the night in a sort of dread.
"I want to get away from here," she said decisively. And it was true. She wanted supremely to get away, back to the world of people.
He rose slowly to his feet, holding the aluminium frying-pan.
"Don't you like last night?" he asked.
"Not really," she said. "Why? Do you?"
He put down the frying-pan and stood staring at the wall. She could see she had given him a cruel blow. But she did not relent. She was getting her own back. She wanted to regain possession of all herself, and in some mysterious way she felt that he possessed some part of her still.
He looked round at her slowly, his face greyish and heavy.
"You Americans," he said, "you always want to do a man down."
"I am not American," she said. "I am British. And I don't want to do any man down. I only want to go back now."
"And what will you say about me, down there?"
"That you were very kind to me, and very good."
He crouched down again, and went on turning the eggs. He gave her her plate, and her coffee, and sat down to his own food.
But again he seemed not to be able to swallow. He looked up at her.
"You don't like last night?" he asked.
"Not really," she said, though with some difficulty. "I don't care for that kind of thing."
A blank sort of wonder spread over his face at these words, followed immediately by a black look of anger, and then a stony, sinister despair.
"You don't?" he said, looking her in the eyes.
"Not really," she replied, looking back with steady hostility into his eyes.
Then a dark flame seemed to come from his face.
"I make you," he said, as if to himself.
He rose and reached her clothes, that hung on a peg: the fine linen underwear, the orange breeches, the fleecy jumper, the blue-and-bluff kerchief; then he took up her riding-boots and her bead moccasins. Crushing everything in his arms, he opened the door. Sitting up, she saw him stride down to the dark-green pool in the frozen shadow of that deep cup of a valley. He tossed the clothing and the boots out on the pool. Ice had formed. And on the pure, dark green mirror, in the slaty shadow, the Princess saw her things lying, the white linen, the orange breeches, the black boots, the blue moccasins, a tangled heap of colour. Romero picked up rocks and heaved them out at the ice, till the surface broke and the fluttering clothing disappeared in the rattling water, while the valley echoed and shouted again with the sound.
She sat in despair among the blankets, hugging tight her pale-blue cloak. Romero strode straight back to the cabin.
"Now you stay here with me," he said.
She was furious. Her blue eyes met his. They were like two demons watching one another. In his face, beyond a sort of unrelieved gloom, was a demonish desire for death.
He saw her looking round the cabin, scheming. He saw her eyes on his rifle. He took the gun and went out with it. Returning, he pulled out her saddle, carried it to the tarn, and threw it in. Then he fetched his own saddle, and did the same.
"Now will you go away?" he said, looking at her with a smile.
She debated within herself whether to coax him and wheedle him. But she knew he was already beyond it. She sat among her blankets in a frozen sort of despair, hard as hard ice with anger.
His will had anihlated hers and she is trying to regain her will back and use it to anhilate his. Notice that he feels an attack to his masculinity:Quote:
"I suppose we will start back as soon as we've had breakfast?"
He was crouching at his camp-stove making scrambled eggs. He looked up suddenly, transfixed, and his brown eyes, so soft and luxuriously widened, looked straight at her.
"You want to?" he said.
"We'd better get back as soon as possible," she said, turning aside from his eyes.
"You want to get away from me?" he asked, repeating the question of the night in a sort of dread.
"I want to get away from here," she said decisively. And it was true. She wanted supremely to get away, back to the world of people.
He rose slowly to his feet, holding the aluminium frying-pan.
"Don't you like last night?" he asked.
"Not really," she said. "Why? Do you?"
He put down the frying-pan and stood staring at the wall. She could see she had given him a cruel blow. But she did not relent. She was getting her own back. She wanted to regain possession of all herself, and in some mysterious way she felt that he possessed some part of her still.
To Romero, the sex was a transformative experience, and perhaps for her too but in a different, neagtive way:Quote:
You Americans," he said, "you always want to do a man down."
And then Romero says something that I think is critical: ""I make you," he said, as if to himself." I make you like it is what he is saying. He will impose his will on her. This becomes a battle of wills, his will awakened by the natural elements, the cold and the remoteness and the sex. And so he tosses her clothes out and she is left naked, down to a bare animal.Quote:
"You don't like last night?" he asked.
"Not really," she said, though with some difficulty. "I don't care for that kind of thing."
A blank sort of wonder spread over his face at these words, followed immediately by a black look of anger, and then a stony, sinister despair.
"You don't?" he said, looking her in the eyes.
"Not really," she replied, looking back with steady hostility into his eyes.
Then a dark flame seemed to come from his face.
I think most men would feel that way naturally. He is proud of his maleness and she bashes his ego to the ground. She is totally cold to him. I don't know how she was in the night, but apparently he did not read her as she is now - braced dead against him. The sunlight seems to have brought on this split and distance between them. In the darkness all can see mysterious and unread, then day dawned and reality hits her right between the eyes. She realises she lost her will temporarily and she wants it back. She fights for it the only way she knows by rejecting his maleness entirely. You can see why he flips out and get entirely angry and willful with her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Absolutely - it must have been how he felt at that moment - anihilated. Lots of anihilting going around here.;):lol: It would definitely be a huge attack to his masculinity and his male ego.Quote:
His will had anihlated hers and she is trying to regain her will back and use it to anhilate his. Notice that he feels an attack to his masculinity:
Most likely - yes it was to him. How so in a negative way for her? Not sure I quite get your idea here.Quote:
To Romero, the sex was a transformative experience, and perhaps for her too but in a different, neagtive way:
Again, I think this whole story ends up being a battleground of the two wills....so I agree with you. His only way to lash out at her and maintain control is to toss her clothes into the river. Interesting thought - that "she is left naked, down to a bare animal".....I believe 'naked and vulnerable' were Lawrence's words exactly, when conversing with a friend and decribing Michelanglo's 'David' in all his male pride and naturalness. Romero is this and wants to force Dolly to meet him on his terms; of course we know this will not happen in this story.Quote:
And then Romero says something that I think is critical: ""I make you," he said, as if to himself." I make you like it is what he is saying. He will impose his will on her. This becomes a battle of wills, his will awakened by the natural elements, the cold and the remoteness and the sex. And so he tosses her clothes out and she is left naked, down to a bare animal.
Quote:
"I want a fire," she said.
He opened his brown eyes wide, and smiled with a curious tender luxuriousness.
"I want you to make a fire," she said.
He glanced at the chinks of light. His brown face hardened to the day.
"All right," he said. "I'll make it."
This made me think of the fire, and the role of fire in the story Witch la mode (I think that is what it was called or close anyway) Fire is linked to sex for some obvious reasons, though in the stories we have read thus far where it seems to come into play the "passions" as it were in connection to fire do not seem to be shed in a very positive light. Considering the nature of fire, it does seem to be linked to a very primal and lust based sexuality.
It also seems to be used as a barrier as well as a symbol. In Witch la mode it was what eventually ended the potential affair and came between the two lovers driving them finally apart from each other, and here, the Princess now seeks to replace the warmth of Romero with the fire instead, as she no longer has need or "want" of him.
'Hey, those are good observations and points you made, Dark Muse. This story also recalls me to the other story 'Witch a la Mode' probably because the man is lead on and then ultimately rejected. And you are right, fire plays prominently in both stories. I keep recalling another story we did way back -'Horse-Dealer's Daughter'. I believe the young man made a fire in the story and indeed the two people enter into a transfiguration as he brings her back to life getting her warm. In that story the transfiguration is accomplished; whereas in these other two stories the result is just the opposite. Interesting to compare the stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Good associations from both you ladies. :) I hadn't considered any of those thoughts.
What happened to Quark?
Thanks Virgil, are you trying to get on my good side;):lol:. DM thought of the fire association. I think that set me thinking further. Fire is also light and warmth to Lawrence; so the mere mention of it is interesting. Now that I think of it Lawrence often refers to fires; campfires such as in "The Virgin and the Gypsy" and other stories. I think the fire in this story is particularly significant. Interesting that Romero points out the fact they use a certain type of branch or twig since it burns long without making a lot of smoke. I wonder what Lawrence's intentions were there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeah, where did he run off to...again? I miss seeing his comments. I also miss our Chekhov Short Story thread. That was a good discussion group.Quote:
What happened to Quark?
Next section.
Wow, I didn't realize how powerful this section was until now. Two things to highlight I think.Quote:
He did the chores, and disappeared with the gun. She got up in her blue pyjamas, huddled in her cloak, and stood in the doorway. The dark-green pool was motionless again, the stony slopes were pallid and frozen. Shadow still lay, like an after-death, deep in this valley. Always in the distance she saw the horses feeding. If she could catch one! The brilliant yellow sun was half-way down the mountain. It was nine o'clock.
All day she was alone, and she was frightened. What she was frightened of she didn't know. Perhaps the crackling in the dark spruce wood. Perhaps just the savage, heartless wildness of the mountains. But all day she sat in the sun in the doorway of the cabin, watching, watching for hope. And all the time her bowels were cramped with fear.
She saw a dark spot that probably was a bear, roving across the pale grassy slope in the far distance, in the sun.
When, in the afternoon, she saw Romero approaching, with silent suddenness, carrying his gun and a dead deer, the cramp in her bowels relaxed, then became colder. She dreaded him with a cold dread.
"There is deer-meat," he said, throwing the dead doe at her feet.
"You don't want to go away from here," he said. "This is a nice place."
She shrank into the cabin.
"Come into the sun," he said, following her. She looked up at him with hostile, frightened eyes.
"Come into the sun," he repeated, taking her gently by the arm, in a powerful grasp.
She knew it was useless to rebel. Quietly he led her out, and seated himself in the doorway, holding her still by the arm.
"In the sun it is warm," he said. "Look, this is a nice place. You are such a pretty white woman, why do you want to act mean to me? Isn't this a nice place? Come! Come here! It is sure warm here."
He drew her to him, and in spite of her stony resistance, he took her cloak from her, holding her in her thin blue pyjamas.
"You sure are a pretty little white woman, small and pretty," he said. "You sure won't act mean to me--you don't want to, I know you don't."
She, stony and powerless, had to submit to him. The sun shone on her white, delicate skin.
"I sure don't mind hell fire," he said. "After this."
A queer, luxurious good humour seemed to possess him again. But though outwardly she was powerless, inwardly she resisted him, absolutely and stonily.
When later he was leaving her again, she said to him suddenly:
"You think you can conquer me this way. But you can't. You can never conquer me."
He stood arrested, looking back at her, with many emotions conflicting in his face--wonder, surprise, a touch of horror, and an unconscious pain that crumpled his face till it was like a mask. Then he went out without saying a word, hung the dead deer on a bough, and started to flay it. While he was at this butcher's work, the sun sank and cold night came on again.
"You see," he said to her as he crouched, cooking the supper, "I ain't going to let you go. I reckon you called to me in the night, and I've some right. If you want to fix it up right now with me, and say you want to be with me, we'll fix it up now and go down to the ranch to-morrow and get married or whatever you want. But you've got to say you want to be with me. Else I shall stay right here, till something happens."
She waited a while before she answered:
"I don't want to be with anybody against my will. I don't dislike you; at least, I didn't, till you tried to put your will over mine. I won't have anybody's will put over me. You can't succeed. Nobody could. You can never get me under your will. And you won't have long to try, because soon they will send someone to look for me."
He pondered this last, and she regretted having said it. Then, sombre, he bent to the cooking again.
He could not conquer her, however much he violated her. Because her spirit was hard and flawless as a diamond. But he could shatter her. This she knew. Much more, and she would be shattered.
In a sombre, violent excess he tried to expend his desire for her. And she was racked with an agony, and felt each time she would die. Because, in some peculiar way, he had got hold of her, some unrealised part of her which she never wished to realise. Racked with a burning, tearing anguish, she felt that the thread of her being would break, and she would die. The burning heat that racked her inwardly.
If only, only she could be alone again, cool and intact! If only she could recover herself again, cool and intact! Would she ever, ever, ever be able to bear herself again?
Even now she did not hate him. It was beyond that. Like some racking, hot doom. Personally he hardly existed.
First, his hunting of the deer shows his masculine and natural character. He brings back the deer and flays it. I wonder if the deer is meant to represent Dollie. But that may be a stretch, though the deer is a doe. But certainly he's master of the natural elements and she shows no dexterity at all and in fact is fearful. Interesting how he gets a certain power from the sun.
Second, the battle of wills comes into full consciousness here. It is no longer subconscious.Quote:
"There is deer-meat," he said, throwing the dead doe at her feet.
"You don't want to go away from here," he said. "This is a nice place."
She shrank into the cabin.
"Come into the sun," he said, following her. She looked up at him with hostile, frightened eyes.
"Come into the sun," he repeated, taking her gently by the arm, in a powerful grasp.
She knew it was useless to rebel. Quietly he led her out, and seated himself in the doorway, holding her still by the arm.
"In the sun it is warm," he said. "Look, this is a nice place. You are such a pretty white woman, why do you want to act mean to me? Isn't this a nice place? Come! Come here! It is sure warm here."
And she is correct, her will is "stony," hard. It's a strange paradox Lawrence has created, she being "stony and powerless," which is an unusual combination, but I do think the paradox is earned here. It could have come across as fake, but Lawrence is convincing, at least for me. And Romero's response is to attle her will; his masculinity is at stake.Quote:
He drew her to him, and in spite of her stony resistance, he took her cloak from her, holding her in her thin blue pyjamas.
"You sure are a pretty little white woman, small and pretty," he said. "You sure won't act mean to me--you don't want to, I know you don't."
She, stony and powerless, had to submit to him. The sun shone on her white, delicate skin.
"I sure don't mind hell fire," he said. "After this."
A queer, luxurious good humour seemed to possess him again. But though outwardly she was powerless, inwardly she resisted him, absolutely and stonily.
When later he was leaving her again, she said to him suddenly:
"You think you can conquer me this way. But you can't. You can never conquer me."
He's actually trying to find a solution that will satisfy both, marriage, a social institution but a religious one as well, though I think he considers they are married in a natural sort of way at this point. She doesn't see it that way. Marriage to her is his will overpowering hers:Quote:
He stood arrested, looking back at her, with many emotions conflicting in his face--wonder, surprise, a touch of horror, and an unconscious pain that crumpled his face till it was like a mask. Then he went out without saying a word, hung the dead deer on a bough, and started to flay it. While he was at this butcher's work, the sun sank and cold night came on again.
"You see," he said to her as he crouched, cooking the supper, "I ain't going to let you go. I reckon you called to me in the night, and I've some right. If you want to fix it up right now with me, and say you want to be with me, we'll fix it up now and go down to the ranch to-morrow and get married or whatever you want. But you've got to say you want to be with me. Else I shall stay right here, till something happens."
And he realizes that he cannot over come her will.Quote:
"I don't want to be with anybody against my will. I don't dislike you; at least, I didn't, till you tried to put your will over mine. I won't have anybody's will put over me. You can't succeed. Nobody could. You can never get me under your will. And you won't have long to try, because soon they will send someone to look for me."
"Hard," a "diamond," Lawrence uses those metaphors for people's wills frequently. In The Plumed Serpent, Kate is hard but she utimately "melts." Dollie does no such thing. She is incapable of transfiguration. She is hard to the end. And that is the tragedy for Lawrence in this story. So Romero in order to preserve his manhood must take the events to where one of them will be smashed.Quote:
He could not conquer her, however much he violated her. Because her spirit was hard and flawless as a diamond. But he could shatter her. This she knew. Much more, and she would be shattered.
I wonder just how powerless she really is though. Physically she might be powerless against him, but then she does not seem to be overly concerned with the physical. She is being kept prisoner, and yet in the end Romero is not gaining any true satisfaction from the arrangement either.
There is some power that the Princess can hold over him. For him it is not enough just to physically possess as he shows, he wants to "win" her over. He wants to make her admit that she likes being with him, that she wants to be with him. He is disturbed and wounded when she will not give him this. In a way she is keeping him prisoner there just as much as he keeps her.
While he physical holds here there, he refuses to relent and through her willful defiance of him he is bounded to stay instead of acknowledging that he cannot truly win over her. When he offers his compromise, she could easily have agreed to it, and then gotten away from him as soon as they returned to civilization, but she denies him because she refuses to give him even a false victory in return for her freedom.
She has the power of her inner demon. While Romero is physically stronger then she is. Her demon is stronger then his is. She holds his masculinity in her hands as much as he holds her life in his.
Yes, very good D-M. Her will is certainly stronger, and perhaps Lawrence equates deomn with will. That is interesting and maybe a connection I never made. If you remember I asked what I thought he meant by demon.
At first I was thinking demon was akin to soul, or something of that nature, but reading particuarly this section, it seems that demon could indeed be tied into Will, since both the idea of the demon and the idea of the Will play strong parts in this story.
Dark Muse, that is one of the best posts you ever wrote. I entirely agree with you. "In a way she is keeping him prisoner there just as much as he keeps her."...that's excellent. I do believe you are right there and also that demon is identified with the 'will'. I think that L used that word to describe his own 'will'. Now, more than this specific story, the idea makes perfect sense to me. This war of the wills is a recurrent theme in L's body of work. It begins with his own parents, both with strong wills set against each other; thus "Sons and Lovers". Throughout every book I have read, I think I can see this demon and this strong sense of 'will' between one or two of the characters...interesting.
Virgil, your post above was good, too. I liked some of the fine points you brought out directly related to the text. I will try and answer that one more specifically tomorrow. Going now to watch a film and relax a bit.
Good, thanks for posting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It is really powerful writing, isn't it? I thought it all throughout the accend to the summit.Quote:
Wow, I didn't realize how powerful this section was until now. Two things to highlight I think.
Yes, I totally agree with all you pointed out here...good observation. Perhaps since it is a doe it emphasis' his mastery over the female but don't think the flaying it quite so connected although I maybe wrong. Someone told me recently that 'knives' have sexual references; so if you think of it in that way; I guess this would fit the story.Quote:
First, his hunting of the deer shows his masculine and natural character. He brings back the deer and flays it. I wonder if the deer is meant to represent Dollie. But that may be a stretch, though the deer is a doe. But certainly he's master of the natural elements and she shows no dexterity at all and in fact is fearful. Interesting how he gets a certain power from the sun.
Definitely the battle of wills...here it does indeed come into the consciousness.Quote:
Second, the battle of wills comes into full consciousness here. It is no longer subconscious.
Yes, that is curious and yet it is a paradox and fits. I like the impression it conveys to the reader -"stony and powerless". I find it very convincing, but then I usually do believe Lawrence to be true in his writing, but I am prejudiced by now. So, Virgil, is his response to 'attle' her will? :lol: what does the word attle mean? Most certainly is masculinity is at stake and it is pretty much deflated abruptly with the rejection he feels in the morning.Quote:
And she is correct, her will is "stony," hard. It's a strange paradox Lawrence has created, she being "stony and powerless," which is an unusual combination, but I do think the paradox is earned here. It could have come across as fake, but Lawrence is convincing, at least for me. And Romero's response is to attle her will; his masculinity is at stake.
And he realizes that he cannot over come her will.Quote:
He's actually trying to find a solution that will satisfy both, marriage, a social institution but a religious one as well, though I think he considers they are married in a natural sort of way at this point. She doesn't see it that way. Marriage to her is his will overpowering hers:
Very well stated; I fully agree.
Exactly, well stated!Quote:
"Hard," a "diamond," Lawrence uses those metaphors for people's wills frequently. In The Plumed Serpent, Kate is hard but she utimately "melts." Dollie does no such thing. She is incapable of transfiguration. She is hard to the end. And that is the tragedy for Lawrence in this story. So Romero in order to preserve his manhood must take the events to where one of them will be smashed.
Also, diamonds are formed out of carbon, right? carbon is coal, am I correct? Interesting since Lawrence came from the salt of the earth - his father being in the pits and a coal miner. It is like the carbon in the earth gives way to the hard diamond. I have to think further on this idea and just how that specifically relates to the story.
"attle" is a special word, a typo for battle. ;)
Oh I thought it could be rattle, you know baby..wa wa! a 'rattle of the wills':lol: Who is the biggest baby here, he or she?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I am the biggest baby here, for sure. :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I had you in mind when I wrote that.:lol::lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ok, the conclusion:
I'm going to let you guys comment first. I'm not sure I really have too many comments here. I've said everything about the story that I think needs to be said. This is the conclusion of the events. I'll probably drop one more post on the story. The conclusion I must admit seems like a western movie. But I don't think the form of a western movie had really yet been established in 1925.Quote:
The next day he would not let her have any fire, because of attracting attention with the smoke. It was a grey day, and she was cold. He stayed round, and heated soup on the petrol stove. She lay motionless in the blankets.
And in the afternoon she pulled the clothes over her head and broke into tears. She had never really cried in her life. He dragged the blankets away and looked to see what was shaking her. She sobbed in helpless hysterics. He covered her over again and went outside, looking at the mountains, where clouds were dragging and leaving a little snow. It was a violent, windy, horrible day, the evil of winter rushing down.
She cried for hours. And after this a great silence came between them. They were two people who had died. He did not touch her any more. In the night she lay and shivered like a dying dog. She felt that her very shivering would rupture something in her body, and she would die.
At last she had to speak.
"Could you make a fire? I am so cold," she said, with chattering teeth.
"Want to come over here?" came his voice.
"I would rather you made me a fire," she said, her teeth knocking together and chopping the words in two.
He got up and kindled a fire. At last the warmth spread, and she could sleep.
The next day was still chilly, with some wind. But the sun shone. He went about in silence, with a dead-looking face. It was now so dreary and so like death she wished he would do anything rather than continue in this negation. If now he asked her to go down with him to the world and marry him, she would do it. What did it matter? Nothing mattered any more.
But he would not ask her. His desire was dead and heavy like ice within him. He kept watch around the house.
On the fourth day as she sat huddled in the doorway in the sun, hugged in a blanket, she saw two horsemen come over the crest of the grassy slope--small figures. She gave a cry. He looked up quickly and saw the figures. The men had dismounted. They were looking for the trail.
"They are looking for me," she said.
"Muy bien," he answered in Spanish.
He went and fetched his gun, and sat with it across his knees.
"Oh!" she said. "Don't shoot!"
He looked across at her.
"Why?" he said. "You like staying with me?"
"No," she said. "But don't shoot."
"I ain't going to Pen," he said.
"You won't have to go to Pen," she said. "Don't shoot!"
"I'm going to shoot," he muttered.
And straightaway he kneeled and took very careful aim. The Princess sat on in an agony of helplessness and hopelessness.
The shot rang out. In an instant she saw one of the horses on the pale grassy slope rear and go rolling down. The man had dropped in the grass, and was invisible. The second man clambered on his horse, and on that precipitous place went at a gallop in a long swerve towards the nearest spruce tree cover. Bang! Bang! went Romero's shots. But each time he missed, and the running horse leaped like a kangaroo towards cover.
It was hidden. Romero now got behind a rock; tense silence, in the brilliant sunshine. The Princess sat on the bunk inside the cabin, crouching, paralysed. For hours, it seemed, Romero knelt behind this rock, in his black shirt, bare-headed, watching. He had a beautiful, alert figure. The Princess wondered why she did not feel sorry for him. But her spirit was hard and cold, her heart could not melt. Though now she would have called him to her, with love.
But no, she did not love him. She would never love any man. Never! It was fixed and sealed in her, almost vindictively.
Suddenly she was so startled she almost fell from the bunk. A shot rang out quite close from behind the cabin. Romero leaped straight into the air, his arms fell outstretched, turning as he leaped. And even while he was in the air, a second shot rang out, and he fell with a crash, squirming, his hands clutching the earth towards the cabin door.
The Princess sat absolutely motionless, transfixed, staring at the prostrate figure. In a few moments the figure of a man in the Forest Service appeared close to the house; a young man in a broad-brimmed Stetson hat, dark flannel shirt, and riding-boots, carrying a gun. He strode over to the prostrate figure.
"Got you, Romero!" he said aloud. And he turned the dead man over. There was already a little pool of blood where Romero's breast had been.
"H'm!" said the Forest Service man. "Guess I got you nearer than I thought."
And he squatted there, staring at the dead man.
The distant calling of his comrade aroused him. He stood up.
"Hullo, Bill!" he shouted. "Yep! Got him! Yep! Done him in, apparently."
The second man rode out of the forest on a grey horse. He had a ruddy, kind face, and round brown eyes, dilated with dismay.
"He's not passed out?" he asked anxiously.
"Looks like it," said the first young man coolly.
The second dismounted and bent over the body. Then he stood up again, and nodded.
"Yea-a!" he said. "He's done in all right. It's him all right, boy! It's Domingo Romero."
"Yep! I know it!" replied the other.
Then in perplexity he turned and looked into the cabin, where the Princess squatted, staring with big owl eyes from her red blanket.
"Hello!" he said, coming towards the hut. And he took his hat off. Oh, the sense of ridicule she felt! Though he did not mean any.
But she could not speak, no matter what she felt.
"What'd this man start firing for?" he asked.
She fumbled for words, with numb lips.
"He had gone out of his mind!" she said, with solemn, stammering conviction.
"Good Lord! You mean to say he'd gone out of his mind? Whew! That's pretty awful! That explains it then. H'm!"
He accepted the explanation without more ado.
With some difficulty they succeeded in getting the Princess down to the ranch. But she, too, was not a little mad.
"I'm not quite sure where I am," she said to Mrs. Wilkieson, as she lay in bed. "Do you mind explaining?"
Mrs. Wilkieson explained tactfully.
"Oh yes!" said the Princess. "I remember. And I had an accident in the mountains, didn't I? Didn't we meet a man who'd gone mad, and who shot my horse from under me?"
"Yes, you met a man who had gone out of his mind."
The real affair was hushed up. The Princess departed east in a fortnight's time, in Miss Cummins's care. Apparently she had recovered herself entirely. She was the Princess, and a virgin intact.
But her bobbed hair was grey at the temples, and her eyes were a little mad. She was slightly crazy.
"Since my accident in the mountains, when a man went mad and shot my horse from under me, and my guide had to shoot him dead, I have never felt quite myself."
So she put it.
Later, she married an elderly man, and seemed pleased.
Edit: Actually I will have comments, but maybe tomorrow. I didn't really care for the ending if you ask me.
Yay! we might actually finish this story soon and maybe, just maybe, we can get to either another one - hopefully short or over to the 'Richard II' thread. I still have a grain of hope for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Oh gee, thanks. I will try to comment tonight. I been kind of busy all day. I can't believe it is this late already. It is snowing here. Looks pretty.Quote:
I'm going to let you guys comment first. I'm not sure I really have too many comments here. I've said everything about the story that I think needs to be said. This is the conclusion of the events. I'll probably drop one more post on the story. The conclusion I must admit seems like a western movie. But I don't think the form of a western movie had really yet been established in 1925.
Haha...it did indeed feel like a Western made for TV or film. Of course, it did have Lawrence's unique touch to it. Yes, perhaps the Westerns we recall as kids were not fully fleshed out until our era. They were big when I was growing up. Now they are rare or they are movies like 'Brokeback Mountain' - what can I say? Other than that, I only recall movies set in the South West into Mexico nowdays. I don't think Western books are big now either, or am I wrong?
Oh good. I will try to go directly to the text you posted and comment on parts of it that stood out to me particularly. Later tonight would be best for me. I have to go eat dinner soon.Quote:
Edit: Actually I will have comments, but maybe tomorrow. I didn't really care for the ending if you ask me.
Well I already made my feelings about the ending clear early on, but I will wait for your comments perhaps before I talk more about that.
There are a few comments I had for now. Upon reading his segment of the story, and what took place and the events that led up to it, now it seems to me that in a way, they both had killed or "defeated" each other. Both of their demons were perhaps too strong, or too much alike that in the end the demons had slain each other.
By the end The Princess's will finally broke, and she would have submitted to his wishes, but by that time, Romero no longer had it within him to try and impose himself upon her anymore, just as he killed her will within her, she finally killed his desire in him. Though ironically even though they both end up having their way, by that time neither one of them can feel truly satisfied.
I did find it interesting how being that it was always Romero's physical prowess over her that was his greatest strength, his death ended up being a physical death, and while her will was her strength over him, her being left mad by the end, her will now shattered, was a sort of death for her.
Even though it claims
She is still left not quite the same Princess any longer, and also interesting, that her "immortality" fades after this experience, the ending could be seen as a sort of death for her.Quote:
she had recovered herself entirely. She was the Princess, and a virgin intact.
She is showing signs of aging at last. And this description reminds me of the description given of her father at the beginning. I think it said something about his own eyes being a little crazy.Quote:
But her bobbed hair was grey at the temples, and her eyes were a little mad. She was slightly crazy.
Been snowing all day here and it took me a half hour longer than usual to get home. D-M, you make some fine observations. I don't remember what you had said about the ending. You might want to restate thoughts. I will think about what you've said as I relook at the ending. I'm just too exhausted to think coherently tonight.
To sum it up in a nutshell, I thought the very last line in the ending took the power out of the story and felt like a "cop out" the typical "hollywood ending" I just felt that the story left me with a greater feeling of impact before that bit about her being married was thrown in at the end.
Dark Muse, I recall that and see that you stated it again after Virgil posted. I will have to read that part again also. I don't have a clear recollection of the actual ending at this time...we've been disgussing this story for sometime now, because of a slowpoke;).:lol: Just kidding with you, V....is there much snow up there? We are getting a nice coating here. I went out and took some photos. It was so pretty in my backyard - a real winter wonderland tonight - sticking to all the trees. I will put them into my computer soon and view how they came out. I think I got some good shots of the lake. It looks to me like we got about 5 or 6 inches of snow - the tree branches are totally coated; it is one of the prettiest night snowfalls I have ever seen before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I had noticed that part too just while reading the part of the text Virgil had posted. I thought the same exact way. I feel this story is a tragedy of sorts. No one wins at the end and like in "Hamlet" they all are killed off...slain.Quote:
There are a few comments I had for now. Upon reading his segment of the story, and what took place and the events that led up to it, now it seems to me that in a way, they both had killed or "defeated" each other. Both of their demons were perhaps too strong, or too much alike that in the end the demons had slain each other.
Well stated; I believe I do agree with this. It is indeed very ironical and no one is satisfied...that is completely true.Quote:
By the end The Princess's will finally broke, and she would have submitted to his wishes, but by that time, Romero no longer had it within him to try and impose himself upon her anymore, just as he killed her will within her, she finally killed his desire in him. Though ironically even though they both end up having their way, by that time neither one of them can feel truly satisfied.
They are both shattered and dead - one physically so and one spiritually so.Quote:
I did find it interesting how being that it was always Romero's physical prowess over her that was his greatest strength, his death ended up being a physical death, and while her will was her strength over him, her being left mad by the end, her will now shattered, was a sort of death for her.
I think that Lawrence is being ironical in this statement. I feel that was his intention entirely. I don't see that she is recovered - only in a superficial sort of way and the same would apply to her 'viginal' state being 'intact'.Quote:
Even though it claims
she had recovered herself entirely. She was the Princess, and a virgin intact.
Here Lawrence states honestly her true state of mind - 'a little mad and slightly crazy.' The two statements offset each other in my mind, making the first more ironic. She is far from ok within herself but appears the same to others; she hides the truth inside.Quote:
But her bobbedhair was grey at the temples, and her eyes were a little mad. She was slightly crazy.
Interesting about her 'immortatily' fading as well....all along she was the fairy princess who never ages or dies or experiences the ravages of life; now all of that illusion her father helped to create is meaningless and gone - like an evaporated vapour of a dreamworld. Reality has hit her and left her with only death within herself. She is indeed shattered and she could never be the 'same Princess any longer'.Quote:
She is still left not quite the same Princess any longer, and also interesting, that her "immortality" fades after this experience, the ending could be seen as a sort of death for her.
That seems appropriate to me - the aging part since nymphs and fairies and woodland princesses never age, as I said. Now she is in the real world of reality and she ages, probably faster from this ordeal than she would have normally. Also, doesn't she marry an older man? That also says a lot about how she now views herself. She saw herself as ageless before but now she is aged immediatedly after this ordeal - aged within her pysche.Quote:
She is showing signs of aging at last. And this description reminds me of the description given of her father at the beginning. I think it said something about his own eyes being a little crazy.
That is a good parallel and reference to her father with his eyes being 'a little crazy.'
I do think that sums the story up. She was hard and fixed and could not "melt."Quote:
The Princess sat on the bunk inside the cabin, crouching, paralysed. For hours, it seemed, Romero knelt behind this rock, in his black shirt, bare-headed, watching. He had a beautiful, alert figure. The Princess wondered why she did not feel sorry for him. But her spirit was hard and cold, her heart could not melt. Though now she would have called him to her, with love.
But no, she did not love him. She would never love any man. Never! It was fixed and sealed in her, almost vindictively.
I too initially found this part of the ending troubling. But you know, I don't any longer. There has been a transfiguration after all. Her hair is now grey and she has restored her virginity and she is "slightly crazy." I'm not sure I care about that little tag to close it off, though I admit it fits. Little tags that are not part of the story I feel are best left off.Quote:
The real affair was hushed up. The Princess departed east in a fortnight's time, in Miss Cummins's care. Apparently she had recovered herself entirely. She was the Princess, and a virgin intact.
But her bobbed hair was grey at the temples, and her eyes were a little mad. She was slightly crazy.
"Since my accident in the mountains, when a man went mad and shot my horse from under me, and my guide had to shoot him dead, I have never felt quite myself."
So she put it.
Later, she married an elderly man, and seemed pleased.
Amazing how many new insights I have gained reading this along with you two. Thanks. :) I'll address your comments tomorrow.
I still personally dislike the fact that she was just married off at the end.
That is a brilliant observation. They do defeat each other. A wild stalemate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes both their wills broke, or perhaps neither. But certainly every physical part of them but the wills broke. It's as if their wills were all that's left of each other.Quote:
By the end The Princess's will finally broke, and she would have submitted to his wishes, but by that time, Romero no longer had it within him to try and impose himself upon her anymore, just as he killed her will within her, she finally killed his desire in him. Though ironically even though they both end up having their way, by that time neither one of them can feel truly satisfied.
Good point. I don't know how else lawrence could have ended the story. I guess they could have both lived, and that would have been unsatisfactory, or they could both have died. Somehow that's unsatisfactory too, but I guess that's arguable.Quote:
I did find it interesting how being that it was always Romero's physical prowess over her that was his greatest strength, his death ended up being a physical death, and while her will was her strength over him, her being left mad by the end, her will now shattered, was a sort of death for her.
Yes. D-M, you have made me reassess this ending. Thanks.Quote:
She is still left not quite the same Princess any longer, and also interesting, that her "immortality" fades after this experience, the ending could be seen as a sort of death for her.
Quite right. She has turned into her father after this experience.Quote:
She is showing signs of aging at last. And this description reminds me of the description given of her father at the beginning. I think it said something about his own eyes being a little crazy.
I already gave my thoughts on that last line. I don't particularly like stories that add such a tag at the end. It does take away from the whole experience of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Boo hoo, I am the only one that likes the ending and thinks it appropriate. I am the lone one out on this one. I guess we are done discussing this story.
I certainly agree with this. I think we all put in sufficent and equal imput and learned from each other. This was one great discussion, even if it took us a few months - understandable, since it was a longer than normal story. In response, I too, thank both of you for all the fine insights.Quote:
Amazing how many new insights I have gained reading this along with you two. Thanks.
I think a month off is in order. I will try to post some extraneous and interesting Lawrence material in the interum, thoughout the month. Then in March, we will start another story, ok with everyone? I have one picked out already, since it has a 'wintery' theme. We can just sqeeze it in before spring begins.
I'm over eager for the next D.H. Lawrence short story! Which story will it be, Janine? Which ones of D.H. Lawrence's short stories have we already looked at in this thread? (The thought of going back and reading 178 pages is quite daunting!)
So happy to see you here, Emmy! Welcome. I know you will love this thread and the discussions. I know what you mean....178 pages is a bit much to review....I told you it was a successful thread.:lol::)Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy Castrol
I know which ones we read so far in my mind; but, I need to actually review those pages to compile a list. Sorry:( you were not here sooner; we did a lot of Lawrence's best stories. I had wanted to do "Wintery Peacock" but every month the discussion got pushed up another month and now is nearly spring, although it still could snow, who knows, right? Do you think it is too late to do a 'winter' story? It's a good one, with a great deal of charm and wit; I reviewed it a few weeks ago. I can review more 'possiblities' if you think it is too late, approaching spring, to do this particular one. I'll check out my books and see what other ones might be suggested. I will officially announce one on the weekend. I usually write up something short about the story and post a nice picture to depict the mood.
Usually, Virgil and Quark and Dark Muse take part, too; so I will let them know when I decide. Virgil might be too tied up with other threads presently, but we have some new people interested in Lawrence so I am willing to do a story this month.
Janine, we should make list of the short stories we have already read. I can help you when I get back home. And perhaps we can choose another.
I love Lawrence, too, Virgil, so whatever you discuss, I'll be happy to join the discussion.
Glad to see you here, too MissScarlett. If you review the last page, I spoke to Emmy, another newcomer to the thread. I am hoping my friend, Lynne50 can join in here, also. Virgil, I knew if I mentioned your name you would show up. You picked last time, so I was going to pick something by the weekend and post the introductory page, if that is ok with you. Is it too late to do "Wintery Peacock"? It is such an interesting story and amusing, too.:D If not, I will look further for a more spring-like theme, but I think we did the best spring ones so far. Let me know what you think. I want to do a short one this time. I can't commit to a long one, because I am in too many discussions this month already: "Richard II", "The Awakening", and maybe another Ibsen play, who knows; but three things will keep me hopping. Better forgo the Ibsen play till next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
Do you think Quark and Dark Muse will participate, too?
Edit: just looked for "Wintery Peacock" online with no success; I guess it's back to the old drawing board. I will review other story possibilities in the next few days.
I think Wintry Peacock is a great idea.
Oh good, you just made my life a lot easier. Thanks, Virgil :) I did find it online at Guttenberg, Australia site. I will post the link once I officially announce it. They pretty much have all the Lawrence short story texts and the plays as well, not to mention the novels and the poems. I had this inclination to pick WP, even if it is now getting spring-like out and we are all in a spring mood. I am determined to discuss this story and we keep missing it year after year. I will officially announce it by Sunday. I have to look for a picture and also write a short introduction to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Can we still wait a couple of weeks Janine? I'm bogged down right now with a bunch of books.
Virgil, sorry, but not really; we have anxious new participants and they will lose interest a few weeks from now and be into something else. I will go slowly posting hunks of text (promise) and I am sure you can catch up eventually. This isn't a very long story. You can read it pretty quickly; maybe on your plane ride home (that is, if you are flying). I have read it about 2 or 3 times, so far, myself. Come on now; this is an easy one. It is a lot easier than discussing Richard II.;) If you can't participate this month don't worry about it. You said to go ahead in Shakespeare. I want to go ahead with this for this month, since we have had this thread 'on hold' way too long. It got lost 4 pages back in the listings; I had to go hunting it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I think Wintry Peacock sounds good too. I don't think I've read it so I'm excited to get into it. Glad to hear that Guttenburg has it.
If Virgil wants to wait a few weeks I don't mind. I've got a two week camping trip in Tasmania which I leave for this coming Easter Sunday so I will have limited internet access then!
Oh good Emmy, how about we do this then, since you and Virgil want to start 2 weeks from now. Lynne50 is going away too so it probably would be more feasible for her to wait as well. I will officially post the next story with a little write up and a nice picture tonight or tomorrow. Then we will all read it and maybe even re-read it and then we can start a few weeks from now; so this will allow you all extra time to be able to post your comments. We will take the story slowly and I will post parts as we go along, so we all can have a chance to comment on the specific text and symbolism. Now, reading ahead, will help us organise our thoughts and then we can actually tackle the text when we start a few weeks from now. If the discussion runs over the month's end, that will be fine. We can choose another shorter short story for next month, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy Castrol
Yes, isn't Project Guttenburg the greatest? I would suggest all of you to copy out the text of the story, while it is still available. I have it copied already to my own document file.
Virgil, what do you think? I can let Quark and Dark Muse know, too.
Sounds good to me. :)